Polarization and beliefs on Creation

KWCrazy

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At some point, you have to understand just exactly WHO established 'natural law'.
The Father created natural law, and He is lord over it. He exists outside of natural law. If He chose to reverse the rotation of the earth tomorrow, He could do so with no catastrophic repercussions.
Just for the record, God is eternal; He has been around more than the 6,000 years since Ussher's creation date.
True, but not the planet. I can see absolutely no purpose in listing the genealogies of the Bible for any intent other than to give us a timeline of our history and a way to trace our lineage back to Noah and Adam.
I have no doubt about angels, if you want to class them in the 'supernatural entity' category.
Fallen angels aka demons are also written about a LOT in the Scriptures. They absolutely exist, and their numbers are extensive. They existed after Christ ascended, which means they still exist to this day. They are more subtle, because proving there are demons would mean proving there are angels; and therefore that word of God is true. God requires faith. Faith is a confident belief in the absence of irrefutable proof.
I have no doubt an angel kept me from going over the edge of a hill country road in my youth, probably more I didn't realize at the time. However, I never 'saw' one.
I think it takes a great amount of energy to physically generate a human body. Spirits usually have no need to do so. However, Angels do take human form. Many have entertained angels unaware.
So did what you see introduce himself? Or did you just 'see something'? How can you tell you witnessed a supernatural entity?
There were two small humanoid shadows moving up and down a white paneled hallway with overhead lighting. I could feel their evil when I saw them. They went into a room where my baby brother was sleeping in his crib. We had to have the baby exorcised later because he exhibited some very strange behavior including screaming in terror every time a Bible was brought near him.
 
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Assyrian

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I don't know what you believe one way or the other, I do know that creation is essential doctrine.

Your comments include far more then that, your boldly telling YECs that their God is 'too small' is not the mild assertion you made here.

The Nicene Creed is the general basis for determining Christian belief on these boards, it's puzzling that you dismiss the significance. The illustration is neither Biblical nor is it a valid comparison. You must be a Creationist in order to be a Christian, it's one of the few prerequisites.

You think it's a waste of time to discuss sound doctrine with regards to Origins Theology, seriously?

You missed a great deal in the previous post but that's ok, I'll keep reminding you of the doctrinal issues involved.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
Hi Mark you are still confusing Creation, the doctrine that God is the creator of all things visible and invisible, with Creationism, the modern teaching that Genesis creation stories have to be interpreted literally and that evolution is wrong.
 
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KWCrazy

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Hi Mark you are still confusing Creation, the doctrine that God is the creator of all things visible and invisible, with Creationism, the modern teaching that Genesis creation stories have to be interpreted literally and that evolution is wrong.
Why do you misrepresent creationism as "modern?"
Adam knew he was created by God.
Adam's offspring knew they were created by God.
Noah knew that God created the world. as did his children.
Abraham knew God was the creator of the universe.
When Moses wrote the Torah it was not rejected because it fit perfectly with the known account which had been handed down over the generations.
Jesus and the disciples knew the Torah, and taught from it freely.

Evolution is the modern theory. It doesn't share the same pedigree and it only gains validity by promulgating the lie that observed adaptation gives evidence of universal common descent. Mankind had always had a relationship with his Creator. Evolutionists deny this, which is why evolution is nothing but one big lie.

Modern teaching? Not hardly!
 
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KWCrazy

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Yep. Same old equivocation used before, misusing the same creation/creationist/Christian as before.
You can't be a Christian and deny that God is the Creator. That would mean that either God lied about being the Creator or that God doesn't exist; neither of which is consistent with Christianity.

If you believe that God is the Creator then the Bible is His holy book. If it isn't true then none of it is true and there is no God. If it IS true then it's all true; God created the world, Jesus is the son of God and the only way to the Father is through the Son.

If both are true, then why is it that evolution believers can't cite ANYTHING in the Scriptures to support their lie of universal common descent? Why, if Genesis is mythology, do Jesus and the disciples refer to its first three chapters 200 times in the New Testament? Where are the passages that support evolution? Where? Nobody seems to be able to produce any, probably because evolution is CONTRARY to the teaching of the Scriptures.

Christian means "of Christ." There is abundant evidence that Christ believed the Scriptures to be true. Provide me with Scriptural evidence to refute that; evidence that evolution happened and the creation week did not; and I might give validity to what you say. Otherwise, it's false doctrine.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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KWCrazy said:
Wrong.
It's a fallacy of logic to presume that the Creator of the universe would in any way be bound by its physical laws.

So. God established the Universe and the laws that maintain the order and structure of the Universe and then violates them capriciously. That, sir, is a fallacy of theology, completely unsupported by Holy Writ and rather superficial. In fact, that view of God as capricious is the accepted Muslim view.

If God acts in the manner you describe, we have nothing on which to rely.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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mark kennedy said:
You must be a Creationist in order to be a Christian, it's one of the few prerequisites.
Obviously you do not believe in sola fide or grace.

I'll probably die prior to you, Mr. Kennedy. Which means I'll be in Heaven before you get there. We'll talk about it when you get there.
 
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gluadys

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I don't know about that, the contrast between a supernatural God and natural law is the essence of Darwinism.

Not just Darwinism. Biblical writers understood the difference between a miracle, like making an iron ax head float and ordinary experience like seeing a seed grow into a plant. That is all the contrast between God's supernatural miracles and God's natural law is. Darwin didn't change that.


Amazing how easily the supernatural can be dismissed.

Really, that is misrepresentation. Archie was not dismissing the supernatural, in fact he was affirming it. But he was pointing out that it is irrelevant to the topic.

Stop right there, I know where this is going. Genesis does explain the origin of the universe as God:

Confusing the who and the how.

If you don't believe God is the Creator your not a Christian,

It is truly dishonest to represent opposition to young-earth creationism as not believing God is the Creator.

Finally something substantive, of course God doesn't fill in all the details about how the heavens work. The Scriptures show us the God who created and fills the heavens and the earth with his glory. It has very little information about how the heavens themselves work.

Which is exactly what was said earlier about the bible not filling in all the details of how the universe was made. Here you are right; the bible focuses on who created, not how the creation works, or was made.



That's classic projection, it's Theistic Evolution that limits God to naturalistic phenomenon.

Actually, the classic projection is yours and leads you to promote this falsehood. It is not true that Theistic Evolution limits God to naturally occurring phenomena.

What is true is that Young-earth creationism limits God to supernatural miracles, while Theistic Evolution affirms both God's miracles AND God's work through naturally occurring phenomena.



Bible believing Christians affirm God's power expressed throughout creation and redemptive history being displayed even in the heart, mind and souls of believers, unto this day and unto the end of the age.

Faith does not diminish God, it accesses the same power expressed at creation, the Incarnation and the washing, renewing and regeneration of the believer who receives the power of God by faith.

Salvation itself is a miracle,

All irrelevant since no one is disputing any of these points.




Why do you misrepresent creationism as "modern?"
Adam knew he was created by God.
Adam's offspring knew they were created by God.


You are making the same conflation as Mark. No one here is dismissing creation. But believing that God is the Creator, your Creator, my Creator, Creator of the universe is one thing.

Believing Genesis 1-2 is a literal scientific account is quite a different thing. That is creationism and it is modern.



You can't be a Christian and deny that God is the Creator.


No one here is denying that God is the Creator or that God lied about being the Creator.

Take time to find out what the real issue is. It is not about God being the Creator. It is not about the power of God to work miracles. We all agree on those points.



If both are true, then why is it that evolution believers can't cite ANYTHING in the Scriptures to support their lie of universal common descent?

There are many things God chose not to tell us in the bible. He did not choose to tell us that lightning is a form of electricity and could be harnessed to do work. He did not choose to tell us about diseases being caused by pathogenic viruses, bacteria and parasites or how to protect ourselves from them by immunization. He did not tell us about galaxies or about the structure of the solar system or that there were continents far to the west of the Mediterranean Sea. So evolution is simply one more thing God chose not to reveal in the days the bible was being written. That is why there is no scripture to support it. There is also no scripture that refutes it. Just like all the other stuff that is not mentioned.




Otherwise, it's false doctrine.


Creation is doctrine. Evolution is science. They are not in conflict with each other.
 
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damoncasale

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So. God established the Universe and the laws that maintain the order and structure of the Universe and then violates them capriciously. That, sir, is a fallacy of theology, completely unsupported by Holy Writ and rather superficial. In fact, that view of God as capricious is the accepted Muslim view.

Without getting into an argument (something that seems to be rather common on this forum, sadly), you might want to actually explain the Muslim view a bit more, for the record.

First of all, this is MY UNDERSTANDING and might be partly or wholly wrong. However, after reading books like "The Closing of the Muslim Mind" by Robert Reilly (as well as "No God but God" by Reza Aslan, who actually *is* a Muslim and therefore can speak from personal knowledge and belief), it appears that, due to a theological debate in the 11th century AD, the side that "won" defined God as the ultimate expression of "will". This "will" could not be constrained by ethics (meaning, God could change his mind at any time on what was good and what was evil, and a believer would still be obligated to obey him), and was also not constrained by scientific law. Not only that, but scientific law could not even operate apart from God's will. For instance, a person striking a match didn't get fire because the sulphur ignited due to a chemical reaction, but because God willed there to be fire.

Prior to this point, Muslims had been making significant strides in science, mathematics, literature, and many other areas. Afterwards, however, advances of those kinds quickly ground to a halt. Because there was no allowance for a recognition that a supernatural God could exist in the same universe as natural, scientific law, scientific inquiry was done away with in exchange for unchangeable judicial precedent (shariah).

Again, I could be misreading what the author is saying. In any case, Archie, it doesn't seem like KWCrazy is completely negating natural, scientific law. However, it does seem like he is forcing scientific law into a subordinate role in order to force a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3. That's not QUITE the Muslim viewpoint, imho, but it does have a similar thrust, even if it doesn't quite go that far.

What pains me personally is that there seems to be a willing ignorance of scientific principles going on here. In other words, the assumption is that if Genesis 1-3 is literal, then any scientific evidence to the contrary must be wrong, and so we don't need to pursue proving things one way or another. Imho, that kind of thinking is dangerous, because it tends to lead to a fear-based, superstitious experience of life.

For instance, let's take politics. Rather than thinking in terms of working together to find a better solution to, say, Obamacare, it's very easy for the fundamentalist religious right to simply demonize their opponents rather than recognizing that even secular rulers are God-ordained for a good purpose (Rom. 13:1-3). Or, let's take climate change. Rather than fearfully thinking in terms of a political agenda for climate change-based regulations (even if there might well be such an agenda), what about coming up with middle-of-the-road approaches that don't wreck business productivity and stymie job growth but don't add fuel to the fire, as it were, either?

It seems to me that the underlying reason for simply throwing science under the bus is fear. Fear that, for instance, we deny the Creator if we accept a non-literal Creation account in Genesis 1-3. I honestly don't think this is an intellectual dispute, but an emotional gut reaction.

By the way, it might be enlightening to know that conspiracy theories are rampant in poorer Muslim countries, because they don't operate according to rational logic but through unquestioning (read, fear-based) obedience to Islamic jurisprudence. Conspiracy theories are likewise the purview of the fundamentalist religious right, because they too operate under fear. Whether it be fear of control, fear of the unknown, or what-have-you, it's certainly not coming from love, respect, or understanding.

Ultimately, we might do well to question what causes us to continue to argue with one another. What do we *really* hope to accomplish?

Damon
 
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mark kennedy

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Obviously you do not believe in sola fide or grace.

You have that backwards, I'm not the one denying the clear testimony of Scripture.

I'll probably die prior to you, Mr. Kennedy. Which means I'll be in Heaven before you get there. We'll talk about it when you get there.

Whatever...
 
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KWCrazy

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So. God established the Universe and the laws that maintain the order and structure of the Universe and then violates them capriciously.
You have an interesting screen name. What, exactly, do you preach? Your posts are contrary to Scriptures so I know you don't preach the word of God. Is it some kind of parody? Of course God created the universe. Of course God created natural law. Did He violate natural law? At least 333 times, as recorded in the Scriptures. Certainly you know all miracles violate natural law, which is what makes them miracles in the first place. God doesn't do card tricks. He performs miracles that are absolutely impossible but for the direct action of the Lord of the universe.

A fallacy of theology? You have a strange theology if you say God is bound by the natural laws He created. Unsupported by the Holy Writ? Which Holy Writ do you reference? You must not mean the Holy Bible because it is FILLED with violations of natural law; unless you think you can float an ax head by crossing two sticks. I missed that one in science class.

Capricious? Not my God. All of His miracles have a purpose; if nothing more than to prove that He IS the Lord.

If you don't know that miracles violate natural law then you either don't understand miracles or you don't understand natural law. In either case, saying that God doesn't or can't perform miracles (violations of natural law) is false teaching. Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what the Scriptures clearly teach? You MUST have a reason.

Regardless, my statement is true and supported by Scriptures. Your accusation has no basis.
 
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KWCrazy

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Believing Genesis 1-2 is a literal scientific account is quite a different thing. That is creationism and it is modern.
Your statement has no basis in truth. Prove it! Jesus quoted from Genesis 2, which means He believed in creationism. Since He was there at the time, He would know.

The statement that belief in a young earth is a modern concept is an unabashed lie. It is based on strong a reaction to the teachings of Darwin, but that was NOT the origination of the belief in the Biblical account of creation. Adam believed it.

There are many things God chose not to tell us in the bible.
Your belief is unscriptural. Admit it! It's based on a REJECTION of Scripture, not a better understanding thereof. That's why you can't find Scripture to support it. You can't find Scripture to support the notion that stealing your neighbor's horses improves your standing in the afterlife either.
Creation is doctrine. Evolution is science. They are not in conflict with each other.
Universal common descent is a belief, just like faith in the Bible is a belief. Choose this day whom you will serve.
 
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mark kennedy

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You have an interesting screen name. What, exactly, do you preach? Your posts are contrary to Scriptures so I know you don't preach the word of God. Is it some kind of parody? Of course God created the universe. Of course God created natural law. Did He violate natural law? At least 333 times, as recorded in the Scriptures. Certainly you know all miracles violate natural law, which is what makes them miracles in the first place. God doesn't do card tricks. He performs miracles that are absolutely impossible but for the direct action of the Lord of the universe.


The concept of a miracle is power being exercised by the Sovereign will of the Most High. For us it seems supernatural but God doing what only God can do is the most natural thing in the world for him. God doesn't violate natural law, the natural order are subordinate to Him.

A fallacy of theology? You have a strange theology if you say God is bound by the natural laws He created. Unsupported by the Holy Writ? Which Holy Writ do you reference? You must not mean the Holy Bible because it is FILLED with violations of natural law; unless you think you can float an ax head by crossing two sticks. I missed that one in science class.

That's a fallacy alright and he didn't learn it from the Scriptures or the kind of a relationship that proceeds from faith. The Darwinian naturalistic assumptions know no bounds. If Darwinian thinking was limited to evolutionary biology then what is it doing making value judgments with regards to faith and theology?

Capricious? Not my God. All of His miracles have a purpose; if nothing more than to prove that He IS the Lord.

Makes you wonder what his concept of divine sovereignty is based on.

If you don't know that miracles violate natural law then you either don't understand miracles or you don't understand natural law. In either case, saying that God doesn't or can't perform miracles (violations of natural law) is false teaching. Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what the Scriptures clearly teach? You MUST have a reason.

God created life so God can heal. God created life originally so the new person you are required to become is a work of God. Ask him what it means to be born of the spirit and whether or not that's a miracle that is subordinate to natural law.

Regardless, my statement is true and supported by Scriptures. Your accusation has no basis.

They all do it, arguing in circles is the mainstay of Theistic Evolution second only to the biting personal remarks of the ad hominem fallacies.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Archie the Preacher

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damoncasale said:
Without getting into an argument (something that seems to be rather common on this forum, sadly), you might want to actually explain the Muslim view a bit more, for the record.
Your post explains it very well, and I thank you for doing so.

I fear I get a bit lazy at times. I didn't want to - again - go to lengths to explain in detail my thought process to have the typical YEC proponent or atheist do their customary response of 'Is Not!'.

Crazy said that while God established natural laws, God has no reason to follow those laws. The 'God can do anything' argument. In short, here's the thinking:

Proposition One: God is by nature correct, reasonable and reliable.

Proposition Two: God established laws of nature which are correct, reasonable and reliable.

Conclusion: God ignores the laws He established and pulls rabbits from His hat as a standard operational process.

Sure. That makes sense. (Note: The single sentence immediately prior was sarcasm.)

damoncasale said:
Prior to this point, Muslims had been making significant strides in ...many ... areas.
A minor quibble here, DC. Not "Muslims", but Arabs; prior to Islam, etc.

damoncasale said:
In any case, Archie, it doesn't seem like KWCrazy is ... [espousing]... the Muslim viewpoint, imho, but it does have a similar thrust...
Yes, similar. He does seem to imply God is capricious. Except of course, he doesn't like that term. He conflates 'sovereignty' with 'capriciousness' and doesn't seem to grasp the distinction.

damoncasale said:
What pains me personally is that there seems to be a willing ignorance of scientific principles ...
Indeed, that is what hurts me to the core as well. God is the author of liberty in many ways, and does not instill a spirit of fear, but of power, love and self-control or soundness of mind.

damoncasale said:
Imho, that kind of thinking is dangerous, because it tends to lead to a fear-based, superstitious experience of life.
Indeed. The fear is palpable.

damoncasale said:
It seems to me that the underlying reason for simply throwing science under the bus is fear. Fear that, for instance, we deny the Creator if we accept a non-literal Creation account in Genesis 1-3. I honestly don't think this is an intellectual dispute, but an emotional gut reaction.
Unquestionably. It has roots in the "My grand-daddy wasn't no monkey" reaction of some years ago; and the underlying fear that if God took more than six, twenty-four days for Creation, He isn't God any more.

damoncasale said:
Conspiracy theories are likewise the purview of the fundamentalist religious right, because they too operate under fear.
I'll have to quibble a bit about this as well. The fundamentalist religious right (FRR) is not synonymous with the 'ignorance is holy' camp. But they're easily mistaken for each other.
damoncasale said:
Ultimately, we might do well to question what causes us to continue to argue with one another. What do we *really* hope to accomplish?
Yes, indeed. This is in fact the serious question in this part of the Christianity discussion. What makes any of us so 'determined' to convince others?

I'll let you in on two secrets. One is that I have a secret unease about being non-traditional. I don't like being against the 'mainstream' in this regard. I've prayed about it; telling God my unease and fears in this regard, asking for God to correct my views and show me I'm wrong. In some forty to fifty years, He has not deemed it necessary to show me differently. And I remember the difficulty Jesus had with the Pharisees. They accusing Him of not being traditional and Him showing them where they were denying THE LAW while claiming to follow it. The Pharisees replaced the Law of Moses (actually God's Law) with the traditions of men. Bishop Ussher always comes to mind.

The other secret is I really don't like being adversarial. For twenty-eight years I served as a federal lawman. I put people in jail, some in prison. I deported people who didn't belong here. I enjoyed detecting things, figuring things out, finding out what people didn't want me to know, assembling facts, writing reports and occasionally testifying in court. I never did like the feeling of showing people were 'in the wrong'. But I did it to the best of my ability.

I still don't like it. At some level, I don't like being 'right' when it requires other people to be 'wrong'. But, like law enforcement, it needs to be done. God ordained 'right' ; 'wrong' is denying God's will, message and intent. I can do no other.
 
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KWCrazy

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Crazy said that while God established natural laws, God has no reason to follow those laws. The 'God can do anything' argument. In short, here's the thinking:
Proposition One: God is by nature correct, reasonable and reliable.
Proposition Two: God established laws of nature which are correct, reasonable and reliable.
Conclusion: God ignores the laws He established and pulls rabbits from His hat as a standard operational process.
Sure. That makes sense. (Note: The single sentence immediately prior was sarcasm.)
Not close, no cigar.
1. God is the Creator of the heavens and the Earth; of all that is seen and unseen. He is lord of the universe. By His command was the universe formed.
2. God is love and truth. God cannot lie because lying is contrary to His will. Jesus said that man cannot live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God. He was referring to the Scriptures; God's written communication with man. Every word of the Bible is true and no jot or tittle will pass away until Christ returns.
3. Miracles of God are NOT akin to pulling rabbits out of a hat. God's miracles prove that He, not natural law, is Lord of the universe. They glorify the Father and demonstrate the majesty of our Creator. To deny the miracles of God is to deny the nature of God. For what purpose? To be thought wise by the nonbelievers who still consider you foolish for believing in God at all?

You reject the clear verbiage of the Scriptures for a belief that isn't supported by the Bible and isn't supported by science. It only finds support with other theistic evolutionists. On what basis can you seriously call this a legitimate interpretation of the Scriptures? How can you call it anything other than false doctrine when you can't produce any passages of Scripture to support it?
 
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gluadys

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Your statement has no basis in truth. Prove it! Jesus quoted from Genesis 2, which means He believed in creationism.


No,it proves he believed that the story of Adam and Eve was a good teaching tool. And he believed in creation, not creationism.



Since He was there at the time, He would know.

Not only was he there, he is the Creator.

The statement that belief in a young earth is a modern concept is an unabashed lie.

That is not what I said though. Yes, people all over the world, including those in the days the bible was being written, once thought the earth was young in comparison with modern thinking. Although even in ancient times there were also those who thought the earth was eternal.

However when people (most of them Christians) began studying the earth carefully, they found much evidence the earth is not eternal but is much older than they formerly believed. They didn't know that before because they had never looked at the evidence before.

What I said is that young-earth creationism is a modern idea, not that a young earth is a modern idea. The difference is this: in ancient and medieval times people thought the earth was young without having evidence one way or the other. It is only in modern times that some people believe the earth is young in defiance of the evidence of its actual age. That is young-earth creationism.


It is based on strong a reaction to the teachings of Darwin, but that was NOT the origination of the belief in the Biblical account of creation. Adam believed it.

Belief in the biblical account of creation does not require belief in young-earth creationism. I believe in the Biblical account of creation as much as you do. I just don't consider it to be a scientific account.

Your belief is unscriptural. Admit it! It's based on a REJECTION of Scripture, not a better understanding thereof.


It is rather strange to find someone who rejects science also thinks that not believing the Genesis account is a scientific account is equivalent to rejecting Scripture.

So tell me this: why should we take the Genesis account to be a scientific account?




Universal common descent is a belief,


No, it is not. It is a conclusion forced on one who takes the evidence seriously. There is no better rational explanation for the distribution of biological traits either geographically, developmentally or chronologically.
 
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mark kennedy

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No,it proves he believed that the story of Adam and Eve was a good teaching tool. And he believed in creation, not creationism.

Same root word, same root meaning...

Not only was he there, he is the Creator.

Same source of all things, especially life.

That is not what I said though. Yes, people all over the world, including those in the days the bible was being written, once thought the earth was young in comparison with modern thinking. Although even in ancient times there were also those who thought the earth was eternal.

The age of the earth is irrelevant.

However when people (most of them Christians) began studying the earth carefully, they found much evidence the earth is not eternal but is much older than they formerly believed. They didn't know that before because they had never looked at the evidence before.

Nonsense, we see further with science then the ancients did with the naked eye, not because we are giants but because of the tools we inherited. In spite of that, we cannot match their work and virtually all our modern tools are based on what they developed unaided by modern device.

What I said is that young-earth creationism is a modern idea, not that a young earth is a modern idea. The difference is this: in ancient and medieval times people thought the earth was young without having evidence one way or the other. It is only in modern times that some people believe the earth is young in defiance of the evidence of its actual age. That is young-earth creationism.

No, modernism is an a priori rejection of the power of God as the explanation for the origin of life. The age of the earth is pointless conjecture having no bearing on the Genesis account of Creation. Creation is the point of origin for a habitable earth and life on this planet:

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27)​

Do you know what a parallelism is and why a triple parallelism indicates the heart of the emphasis? Are you familiar with the word 'bara' in the Hebrew, why it is used only of God and used more times in this verse then the entire account of Creation?

Do you understand Creation is essential doctrine, inextricably linked to the Incarnation, Resurrection and New Birth? Do you know why you must be a Creationist in order to be a Christian and more importantly, why it takes a miracle, 'Bara', in order to wash, renew and regenerate the sin cursed sons of Adam?

Belief in the biblical account of creation does not require belief in young-earth creationism. I believe in the Biblical account of creation as much as you do. I just don't consider it to be a scientific account.

No of course it wouldn't be a scientific account, because natural science is focused on natural phenomenon. It can't be used to dismiss a miraculous creation by divine fiat, related by the only one who witnessed the events, the only one who was there, 'In the beginning'.

It is rather strange to find someone who rejects science also thinks that not believing the Genesis account is a scientific account is equivalent to rejecting Scripture.

I have never seen a Creationist reject science, in the name of science, those who care about neither science of Scripture, reject the sincere profession of faith that says, In the beginning God. Not once have I seen a Theistic Evolutionist defend the Scriptures against the endless ridicule of atheistic materialism yet they continuously attack the foundational belief of Christian theism, in concert with the naturalistic assumptions of Darwinian evolution.

So tell me this: why should we take the Genesis account to be a scientific account?

Define science and do an actual exposition of the Creation account. There is no excuse for this kind of negligence because Theistic Evolutionists are remiss in their due diligence with regards the Scriptures and science. Yet for reasons that remain obscure, at least to me, they never hold themselves or other TEs accountable to standards of science, nor will they admit standards of hermeneutics.

No, it is not. It is a conclusion forced on one who takes the evidence seriously. There is no better rational explanation for the distribution of biological traits either geographically, developmentally or chronologically.

I've watched you pontificate about evidence you refuse to examine, too many times to count. There is no evidence in your discussion, your addressing nothing substantive and certainly nothing Biblical. Frankly, following your logic is like chasing ghosts in the fog and it would not be so bad if it were not so constant.

What this is telling me is not that your an unbeliever or too incompetent. What it tells me is that you bought the Darwinian lie of false assumption = positive final proof; before, during and after the evidence. It's not based on physics, not a valid transcendent metaphysical a priori fact.

It's fallacious rhetoric and I would think you would be tired of leaning on it after it has failed you so many times.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Assyrian

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Why do you misrepresent creationism as "modern?"
Because while some people in the past interpreted the Genesis days literally and others figuratively, the literal intrepretation was never taught as dogma until modern creationism. Nor did Christians in the past oppose established science with their interpretation of Genesis. In fact they considered behaviour like that 'disgraceful and dangerous'.

Adam knew he was created by God.
Adam's offspring knew they were created by God.
Noah knew that God created the world. as did his children.
Abraham knew God was the creator of the universe.
When Moses wrote the Torah it was not rejected because it fit perfectly with the known account which had been handed down over the generations.
Jesus and the disciples knew the Torah, and taught from it freely.

How can you say the Torah fit perfectly with the known account handed down, when the two creation accounts in the Torah itself contradict each other if they are read as literal history?

Jesus and the disciples teaching from Genesis is very different from teaching us to interpret it literally. There is a danger in reading your literal interpretation of Genesis into occasions where Jesus and his disciples teach from Genesis and then assuming they were teaching Genesis literalism.

Evolution is the modern theory. It doesn't share the same pedigree and it only gains validity by promulgating the lie that observed adaptation gives evidence of universal common descent.

Observed variation... plus genetic evidence... plus transitional fossils... plus the nested hierarchy of life.. plus radiometric dating... plus...

Mankind had always had a relationship with his Creator. Evolutionists deny this, which is why evolution is nothing but one big lie.
Modern teaching? Not hardly!
God has spoken to the human race in metaphor and parable throughout the bible, which is why literalism is nothing but short sighted modernist mistake.
 
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damoncasale

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A minor quibble here, DC. Not "Muslims", but Arabs; prior to Islam, etc.

Okay, point taken. I wasn't getting that specific. However, the point I was making was that the religion of Islam had a huge influence on the thinking of Arabs and non-Arabs, and after the 11th century AD, it went mostly downhill in terms of scientific endeavor because of that particular theological dispute.

I noticed that KWCrazy responded to the "flash points" in your post, but kind of glossed over both this and the latter point about arguing. Which makes me believe it's kind of useless to continue with this.

I did a study on the two witnesses once, and one of the interesting conclusions I came up with was that they were compared to "two olive branches." And the olive branch is the traditional symbol of peace, sort of like a white flag is today. Anyway, imho, "peace" won't come about through arguing one another into submission, but through validating one another and showing one another a better way through word and deed. Elijah to come doesn't start off saying, "I have all of these doctrinal issues with you," but rather "I'm here to comfort you." (Isa. 40:1)

I'll have to quibble a bit about this as well. The fundamentalist religious right (FRR) is not synonymous with the 'ignorance is holy' camp. But they're easily mistaken for each other.

Again, point taken. Unfortunately the one seems to overlap with the other to an uncomfortably large degree, and one wonders precisely why that is.

Yes, indeed. This is in fact the serious question in this part of the Christianity discussion. What makes any of us so 'determined' to convince others?

I'll let you in on two secrets. One is that I have a secret unease about being non-traditional. I don't like being against the 'mainstream' in this regard. I've prayed about it; telling God my unease and fears in this regard, asking for God to correct my views and show me I'm wrong. In some forty to fifty years, He has not deemed it necessary to show me differently. And I remember the difficulty Jesus had with the Pharisees. They accusing Him of not being traditional and Him showing them where they were denying THE LAW while claiming to follow it. The Pharisees replaced the Law of Moses (actually God's Law) with the traditions of men. Bishop Ussher always comes to mind.

The other secret is I really don't like being adversarial. For twenty-eight years I served as a federal lawman. I put people in jail, some in prison. I deported people who didn't belong here. I enjoyed detecting things, figuring things out, finding out what people didn't want me to know, assembling facts, writing reports and occasionally testifying in court. I never did like the feeling of showing people were 'in the wrong'. But I did it to the best of my ability.

I still don't like it. At some level, I don't like being 'right' when it requires other people to be 'wrong'. But, like law enforcement, it needs to be done. God ordained 'right' ; 'wrong' is denying God's will, message and intent. I can do no other.

Well, I guess my discomfort with arguing stems from seeing two people I love (my parents) do it incessantly while I was growing up. So it bothers me a lot while it might not bother others so much.

A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. You can't make a rose bloom before it's time. Or, in other words, when a person is ready to change their beliefs, you'll know, and before then there's no point in arguing.

Anyway, good to meet you, Archie. After my experience on this forum, though, I think I'm going to look for a different one. I'm really looking for a more scholarly approach to biblical study, and this really doesn't seem like the place to go, especially with all of the arguing. It didn't help that apparently one poster "reported" this thread over an issue with picking the wrong religion icon, as it didn't make me feel very welcome at all. (Why didn't they just mention that privately to me, instead? Sigh.)

Anyway, I tried another site called biblescholarsforums dot com but it doesn't seem to have been active *at all* in more than a year. I've also visited a local synagogue while they went through the entire bible for Torah Study (they didn't stop after finishing with Deuteronomy one year) and learned a *lot*, but even they're not the kind of academic environment I'm looking for. But since I'm moving to California in a month or so, I'll look and see what they have out there.

Damon
 
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