Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation.

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TPeterY said in post 113:

"The End of The Age" is not the 2nd coming of Jesus as on a white horse.

That's right.

While the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them the end of the age would occur at the at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c) that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

TPeterY said in post 113:

As some verses describes, that's "The great and terrible day of the Lord."

That's right.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

TPeterY said in post 113:

"The End of the Age" Jesus spoke about is "The Church Age" (Age of Grace).

Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

TPeterY said in post 113:

"The End of the Age" Jesus spoke about is "The Church Age" (Age of Grace).

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

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TPeterY said in post 115:

Matthew 24:37-42
New King James Version (NKJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Note that Matthew 24:37-42, like Luke 17:26-37, refers to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

TPeterY said in post 115:

Matthew 24:37-42
New King James Version (NKJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8) and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.
 
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TPeterY said in post 115:

Plus the story of Enoch is about a Pre-Trib also.

Actually, Enoch wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah in the ark). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year that Solomon's temple began to be built: Historians say it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work further back: If Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find Enoch was 1,034 at the time of the Flood. This means had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

TPeterY said in post 115:

Since you brought it up, let's use 1st Thessalonians 4, lets use that as an example. Paul is talking about in "reference" to Jesus' coming at the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God.

Paul is not "pertaining" to the last trumpet in Revelation 11. Jesus will come at the last trumpet, but not this trumpet.

That's right.

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said: "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be bodily resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bodily resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not bodily resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be bodily resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

TPeterY said in post 115:

2) Paul dunno when the rapture will occur, only The Father knows. (Matthew 24:36).

Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).
 
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The church of God began at Pentecost following the life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.. and it will be complete when the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

Revelation 12 concerns Israel (the woman with child) born again and having the testimony of Jesus Christ in that Day.. for its context is the things which shall be hereafter.



Read Revelation 19 about 100 times.. as it too is within the context of the things which shall be hereafter.



It proves itself.. the church of God is nowhere on earth within the portion of the revelation which pertains to the things which shall be hereafter.. and that is Rev 4 onward.

I agree with the first point.

Revelation 12 does not say what you are saying. It simply speaks about the woman (Israel) and the remnant of her seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Who besides the church has this? The rest is your conclusion that is not supported by the text itself.

Regarding Revelation 19, let’s actually look at the verses in question.

“‘…Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure’— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, ‘Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the true words of God.’” (Rev 19:7-9 ESV)

Do any of these verses say that the marriage supper of The Lamb has taken place by this point? Quite the contrary, we are told that the bride has finally made herself ready for marriage. It is now time (at this point in John’s vision) to say, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” (Rev 19:9)

When is this time? Well what point are we at in John’s vision? Jesus is returning to fight the battle of Armageddon, and now is the time for the marriage and the marriage supper. It hasn’t happened yet. It’s time for it to happen.
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Oh my goodness. Dude, buddy, pal, brother, my friend!!! LOL. Sorry!!!

Okay, I'm pause right here first before I go any further. I'm just gonna apologize in advance because I'm gonna end up embarrassing you like the description of the 7 churches I wrote. I'm not trying to poke fun at you, but if I'm gonna to explain something to you, that's how it'll come out. Please, remember, I'm really trying to help and not make fun at you.

I won't make this too lengthy. I don't want to feel like I'm rubbing it in. Anyways, yes it's true deliverance can mean several things. But under this circumstance, Jesus said His deliverance is described in Matthew 24:40-42.

...

Well i actually didn't want to write all that about the 7 churches but you kinda forced me to explain when you questioned why there was no rapture with those churches. It didn't seem like you understand John's messages about the churches so I had to explain. But like I told you in my PM, I'm not here to argue or debate. I'm really just trying to help people understand. So if I embarrass anyone, I don't mean to and apologize.

Just hurry up and knock some sense into your head with the Spirit of Truth. I rather be playing SimCity. LOL!


Wow. Can you count the number of condescending remarks in the above posts? Try not to dislocate your arm while patting yourself on the back there brother. I wouldn’t want you to hurt yourself. It’s like a blind boxer who thinks he’s rope-a-doped the other guy and has him staggering, yet in reality, all he’s really managed to do is land a couple of blows to the turnbuckle. Like him, I’d say your celebration is a bit premature, so before you get too carried away with the self congratulation…

First, while you say you are not trying to embarrass me, the pretty decent amount of publically condescending remarks in the above quotations suggest otherwise. Had you actually made a sufficient counterargument to something I actually said, your responses above would hardly suit the humble servant that you claim to be who is merely trying to enlighten his brethren. ;)

Second, you’ve done no such thing. YOU made the claim that implied I believed that the seven churches in Revelation represent seven church ages (straw man), then YOU proceeded to knock that straw man down by arguing that it did not. However, I never said any such thing. That is why I responded the way I did. Why are you making an argument against a point I never made? You cannot “embarrass” me by countering a point I never made in the first place. So I challenge you to go through all of my posts in this thread and find where I made such a claim. I’m willing to admit if I’m wrong or made a mistake. Are you?

Next, neither you nor anyone else has bothered to answer my main point about the churches in Revelation. While you presented a wonderful exposition on how those churches are representative of Christianity in general (a point with which I said I agreed, and more importantly, one I never argued against in the first place), you ignored the fact that John was writing to literal churches made up of his contemporaries. If there are two points we diverge paths on, they would be:

a. I do not believe Revelation 3:10 is referring to a rapture, and neither you nor anyone else has proven that it does.

b. There were actually 7 literal churches that John was writing to, that existed at that time, and to whom these promises were made.

I asked a very simple, important, and key question: How did God keep His promise to those churches to whom the letter was actually written? After all, Jesus made those promises to them, and they were suffering persecution at that time. Did He rapture the church at Philadelphia? Did He rapture the righteous portion of the church at Thyatira? How did He keep His promise to them? How did He keep them? Answer that, and perhaps you’ll understand how He can keep that same promise to those at the end.
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Now I'll begin. "The End of The Age" is not the 2nd coming of Jesus as on a white horse. As some verses describes, that's "The great and terrible day of the Lord."

"The End of the Age" Jesus spoke about is "The Church Age" (Age of Grace). when the Church Age ends, that's when Daniel's 70th week begins. The prophecy of Daniel's 70th week can NOT begin until The Church Age ends.

How many times have you heard pastors, preachers, theologians say "The End will come when the gospel is preached all over the world, then Jesus will return?" Jesus is concerned about the church from the wrath to come, not the sinners.

Now let's look at Matthew 24:3-14. Notice how even the title said "The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age?" See how He tells them 3 times the end will not come until the gospel is preached throughout the world? He's talking solely to the church and even warns us we will suffer persecution preaching the gospel.

Matthew 24:3-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

And if you check verses 15-31 from the time of the tribulation till His 2nd coming, not once did He mention the words "The End." It's because we're (church) gone, rapture after verse 14 (for those smart enough to realize it).


What is the Day of The Lord? Once again, there’s a lot of commentary. Some points I can agree with, but overall, these Scriptures do not mean what you claim they do. They do not point to a pre-tribulation rapture. We aren’t debating whether or not many of these passages in question are talking about the rapture (resurrection). Although there are some you are trying to make fit even though they do not, our discussion is really about whether or not any of these passages demonstrate a pre-tribulation timing of the rapture.

The end of the age is the end of this present age. It is at His coming that this age ends. No He isn’t speaking of the end of the church age. Rather, He is speaking of the end of the age of gentile domination: the same times of the gentiles we read about in Luke. He is speaking about the time when what we know ends, and His reign on earth begins. The end of this age does not come until the gospel has been preached to the whole world (in space and time), and He doesn’t return until the end of the age. It’s simple algebra. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. In other words, if the above is true, then Jesus doesn’t return until the gospel has been preached to the whole world. However, what is not implied in that statement is that the church is gone the moment this is done. It merely means that this necessity has been met, and now the end can and will come. Once again, focus on the question the disciples asked at the beginning of Matthew 24. Jesus’ entire discourse is related to that subject: the things leading up to it, the things immediately preceding it, and some warnings about it. He doesn’t shift gears and start talking about a completely different subject. His subject remains the same: His second coming and the end of the world (age). Everything else He says during this discourse pertains to those two things in one way or another: the parables, the warnings, the command to watch, all of it.

Now, in order to keep from rewriting what I’ve already written in the past, I’m going to quote some of my previous posts that address these exact same issues.
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Post regarding the Day of The Lord (what is it?) responding to another poster a while back.

Now of course I am going to ask: where is your scriptural support for this?? I show a passage that is clearly the Day of The Lord. Not only is it not described as a 1,000 year period, it is signified by certain specific events, all listed in Isaiah Chapter 2. You do not address this nor refute it in any way. And you don't provide any Scripture to support you own position. So how could I possibly come to agreement with you???

First, I don’t disagree with you about what is written in Isaiah. I simply agree with what Peter said, (2Pe 3:8) “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

Is this an arbitrary concept? In Genesis God told Adam, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Gen 2:17)

Yet how long did Adam live? “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.” (Gen 5:5)

So clearly Adam did not die in the literal day that he ate of the forbidden fruit. Yet he did die before reaching 1000 years (or as Peter puts it, a day with The Lord).

Now consider the significance of what we read in Revelation, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4)

They live for a thousand years. The significance is that for them the curse has been removed. They will fulfill what Adam’s sin took away. They will live a whole day where the curse of Adam causes all corrupt flesh to die within a day. The broader understanding is that now death has no power over them, and they have eternal life. Whereas through Adam’s sin, death exists and brings a cessation of life. So there is a purpose and significance to saying that they live and reign for a thousand years.

Peter says, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2Pe 3:10)

Does this happen at the second coming? Revelation shows this happening at the end of the thousand years.

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea” (Rev 21:1)

Yet Peter says that this event too is part of the day of The Lord. But according to John it is seen after the great white thrown judgment which happens at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. How can that be if the day of The Lord is not at least 1000 years long?

Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the day of Christ (or day of The Lord) is heralded by the revealing of the man of sin (ultimately his destruction at His appearing) and the gathering of His elect. Yet we know that this event happens at the second coming of Christ and the beginning of the day of The Lord. Revelation reveals this as well in Chapter 19.

Joel prophesies, “ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” (Joe 2:31)

Peter confirms this in Acts 2:20 when he quotes Joel. “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:”

Isaiah tells us, “Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand [the actual Hebrew word here means “near” or close; not that it has actually arrived]; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh [agrees with verse 6 as in the day is approaching but has not yet arrived], cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine [same thing Joel prophesied as happening before the day of The Lord comes]. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.” (Is 13:6-11)

Jesus tells us, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (Mat 24:29)
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Post continued.

According to the prophet Joel, this event happens before the great and terrible day of The Lord. It also heralds the imminent arrival of that day. So then tying together what Joel prophesies with what Jesus said, we ask ourselves what must be the event that marks the dawn of the day of The Lord? Jesus tells us.

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mat 24:30-31)

Is this not exactly what Paul is telling us in 2 Thessalonians 2? He says that the day of Christ (or day of The Lord) cannot come until the falling away happens and the man of sin is revealed. What happens at some point after he is revealed? The Lord consumes him with the brightness of His coming (same advent of the day of The Lord we see everywhere else; not different).

Isaiah also tells us, “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (Isa 2:4)

So we see here that the day of The Lord is the day of judgment of the nations. Micah says referring to this same event, “And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (Mic 4:3)

When does this happen? We read further in Isaiah:

“The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:” (Is 2:11-12)


Now let us consider Isaiah 65.

“There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” (Isa 65:20)

“No child will die in infancy; everyone will live to a ripe old age. Anyone a hundred years old will be considered young, and to die younger than that will be considered a curse.” (Isa 65:20 CEV)

When does this happen? We read earlier in this same chapter:

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” (Is 65:17)

Wait a minute. How can this be when we read in Revelation, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Rev 21:4)

John says there will be no more death. Yet Isaiah describes people dying but says that anyone dying 100 years of age will be thought of as dying young.

Well first notice that Revelation describes death being removed after the new heavens and new earth are completed. This is completely in agreement with what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians:

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father [the end of the millennium, and the dawn of the rest of eternity]; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power [subjugated all nations, established His rule over all nations]. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Co 15:24-26)

The last enemy destroyed is death. Revelation tells us that this happens after the completion of making all things new. So then what is Isaiah telling us? How do we reconcile all of this? How can death be removed and yet people still die? We reconcile this by understanding that the process of renewing will happen during the millennial reign. It is during this time that the refreshing is taking place. The process is completed at the end of that day. In other words in Isaiah, God is creating (process) the new heavens and the new earth. In revelation 21, the process is completed, and it has been done. The end is marked by the defeat of the last enemy (signifying the complete removal of death altogether) which Revelations shows happening at the end of the thousand years. That is when we see the second resurrection and the final judgment.

Why say all of this? I say it all to help with the understanding that not everything that happens on the day of The Lord happens at the same time on that day. It is also to show that the Scriptural concept of that day is that it lasts 1000 years. We know this because events which mark the beginning of that day such as the coming of Christ and events which mark the end of that day such as the passing away of the old and the institution of the new heavens and earth all take place on the day of The Lord. Therefore logically the day of The Lord must span the entire time it takes for all of these things to be fulfilled.
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Post about Matthew 24, the abomination of desolation, and 70 A.D. (containing information about the gospel being preached to the whole world).

Continuing from the posts I started here (posts 285 and 286 on this thread): http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-29/#post56959718





Well first we have prophecies in Daniel 8 and 11 which seem to fit Epiphanes perfectly. He even set up an abomination that maketh desolate as Daniel prophesies would happen in Daniel 11:31. However, Messiah had not even been born yet when Epiphanes did the things he did. Daniel 9:27 describes the sacrifice ceasing and the destruction of the city and sanctuary after Messiah is cut off. Jesus also mentions the abomination of desolation as a future event from the point in time He was speaking. This presents a couple of problems. Jesus is quoting Daniel, and He is prophesying a future event. He cites Daniel’s prophecy which indicates that what Daniel saw must also be a future event. You don’t prophesy about a past event; that is… unless it’s going to happen again.

Was the Roman invasion the abomination of desolation Jesus was speaking about? Again, many believe it was and tie it in with Daniel 9:26-27. Again, many of the things described by Jesus in the gospel of Luke took place when Jerusalem was invaded by the Romans. Many were killed. Many were taken into captivity. The city was in essence destroyed.

Now let’s look at what Jesus says closely. The passage is Matthew chapter 24. I want to focus on this passage in this post. Later I will discuss the seeming discrepancy between what Matthew and Mark record and what we read in Luke.

There are a couple of clues here that simply cannot be ignored. First, Jesus proclaims His return. That is the end of all these things. Do not forget that the disciples asked, “…when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Mat 24:3)

When will all these things be (one stone not being left upon another), and when will the end (His return) come? Has it happened? Did He come in the clouds? Did we all miss it? No. He has not returned. Yet He said immediately…pause. Immediately after what?

Now back up a few verses. Verse 14 is “amen”. Why do I say that? Jesus makes an ending statement there. The end will come when? When the gospel is preached to the whole world. Did this happen during the time of the apostles? This is a multidimensional statement. What do I mean by that? This statement encompasses not only physical space, but also time. The gospel was to be preached not only to the people of the disciples’ time but to the generations that had yet to be born.

Now the completion of the preaching of the gospel in both physical space and down through the generations of time brings about the end. Notice the preaching of the gospel to the whole world is not the end. But the end will come once the gospel has been preached to all nations. What then happens? What does Jesus say next?

When the gospel has been preached unto all nations, then the end shall come. And the disciples asked Him, when will all of this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

First He tells them all the things which must happen leading to the end (a general synopsis of things that will take place over a long time). Now we have arrived at the end. The gospel has been preached. And what happens next?

Now it’s time to answer the next part of the question, what shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

Now that the gospel has been preached and we are at the end (then shall the end come; not then shall be the end; but then shall the end come), when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place. What happens then?

Instructions are given and then we read, “For [when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place] then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time…” (so many people miss this one word, time, not place, time; Jesus already gave the place when He told us the abomination of desolation would be standing in the holy place) (Mat 24:21). What time is He referring to? The time when the abomination of desolation is seen standing in the holy place which is after the gospel has been preached to the whole world (both in space or location and in time down through the generations)

“For the promise [salvation through Christ] is unto you [those present at that point in time with Peter], and to your children [descendants down through time], and to all that are afar off [all who are afar off spatially (other locations, nations or countries) and down through time (their children; descendants)], even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (Act 2:39)

And what happens as a result of this time of great tribulation? Jesus cuts it short. Why? Because if He did not, no flesh would be saved (Mat 24:22). Did the invasion of 70 CE threaten all flesh with extermination? But for the sake of the elect, He will cut those days short so that all flesh will not perish from the earth. And then, after the gospel has been preached to all nations, and during the time of great tribulation if any man comes to you and says Christ is here or there, do not believe him. Why? Because at this time false prophets will begin working miracles and show great signs and wonders so much so that if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived by them. What does Revelation say will happen? “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet [just a point of interest; but note there are three entities here]. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” (Rev 16:13-14)

They are the spirits of deception. If they bid you to go here into the desert or else where saying Christ is there, do not go. Why? Because they are not The Christ. For when The Christ returns it will be like when lightening comes out of the east and shines all the way over to the west, as quick as lightening, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Now, immediately after the tribulation of those days (what tribulation? The tribulation that follows the completion of the gospel being preached; the tribulation that begins when the abomination of desolation is seen standing where it should not; the tribulation that is so bad it threatens the world with extinction; immediately after that tribulation that threatens the world with extinction) the sun will not shine, the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then (after the signs in the sun, moon and stars) shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then the tribes of the earth will mourn for [at that time] they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.

Yes Jesus spoke about a lot of things covering a lot of time. But the great distress or great tribulation He was talking about was not the invasion of Jerusalem or the completion of the Diaspora. All of these things happened so that all of God’s word might be fulfilled. But the end was not yet. The time of great tribulation Jesus prophesied about was to be a specific period of time involving the abomination of desolation which would immediately precede His second coming. Once you see this, you know that the generation on the earth at that time will not pass until all is fulfilled unto the coming of The Lord.

“So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” (Mat 24:33-34)

2000 years simply does not cut it. The generation that sees these things come to pass cannot die off before all of these things are fulfilled (the fulfillment of it all is the second coming which has not happened yet). So there has to be a point that marks the beginning of the things Jesus is talking about. And I think we can all agree that if the end of these things is His second coming (this is the question He is answering for the disciples after all), then the beginning of the things which signal the generation that will see His return cannot have been the invasion of Jerusalem in 70 CE since no one is left alive from that generation to see it all fulfilled, and Jesus cannot lie.

Therefore the abomination of desolation He was prophesying about could not have been the destruction of Jerusalem at that time because when the abomination of desolation He was speaking about is seen, then will be the time of great tribulation unlike any in the history of the world unto that time immediately after which He will return (while someone in that generation that sees these things still lives to see them all fulfilled in His second coming).

I am going to continue with these posts. I still want to discuss what some see as a discrepancy between what we read in Luke, and what is seen in Matthew and Mark. I also want to get into exactly what the abomination of desolation is we should be looking for.

To be continued…
Jump to next post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-32/#post56984209
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Since you brought it up, let's use 1st Thessalonians 4, lets use that as an example. Paul is talking about in "reference" to Jesus' coming at the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God.

Paul is not "pertaining" to the last trumpet in Revelation 11. Jesus will come at the last trumpet, but not this trumpet. Reasons below.


:confused:

Paul appears to know more than you give him credit for.

“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:16-17 ESV)

Dead rising sounds like a resurrection to me (as in the first resurrection John describes in Revelation 20).

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,…And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.” (2 Thes 2:1-3 & 8)

Once again, Paul addresses the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him. Only this time he goes into more detail. Certain things must happen before that day can arrive: the rebellion (falling away) and the revealing of the man of sin. He goes on to reveal that this lawless one will be destroyed by His coming. One subject: the coming of the Lord. Two things connected to it: the gathering of the church and the destruction of the man of sin. This is the same coming of The Lord and gathering (or catching away) that Paul spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 4, yet here he reveals that the man of sin will be destroyed at that time as well.

At the end of it all, you have proven my case. Your entire attempt to prove a pre-tribulation rapture rests upon us inferring it based on certain passages that actually do not say it. For example, once again you point to Matthew 24:40-42. You then say, “see! One will be taken and another left. This is the rapture! Can’t you see that? What else could it be? ” And while this is describing the gathering, the passage does not mention it being pre-tribulation; and a post-tribulation understanding (or understanding that this will happen at the second coming) is just as plausible an explanation as the one you propose. The difference is that the second coming is proven and not in question. What’s more, this is exactly the subject Jesus is discussing throughout Matthew 24. The pre-tribulation position remains unproven. In other words, He is describing the manner in which the elect will be gathered: the same elect He said He would send His angels to gather earlier in this same chapter. He has not changed His topic to a secret rapture. He is still talking about the second coming and the gathering of the elect that happens at that time.

As usual, you ignore the fact that Jesus Himself said He would gather His elect at His second coming, and that it would happen immediately after the tribulation of those days (meaning the days in which these things take place). This understanding fits virtually any description of the same event anywhere else it is described such as 1 Thessalonians 4. Ergo, it makes sense that Paul is referring to and describing the same event, not a different one, especially since he doesn’t even attempt to distinguish it from the second coming.
 
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I agree with the first point.

Revelation 12 does not say what you are saying. It simply speaks about the woman (Israel) and the remnant of her seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Who besides the church has this? The rest is your conclusion that is not supported by the text itself.


And yours is?

Rev 12 says absolutely nothing about the church of God.. after the first three chapters mentioned it perhaps 100 times..

Did the Holy Spirit somehow forget how to tell us that this was the church?

The context is once again.. the things which shall be hereafter and Israel shall have the testimony of Christ in that Day..

Regarding Revelation 19, let’s actually look at the verses in question.
“‘…Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure’— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, ‘Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’ And he said to me, ‘These are the true words of God.’” (Rev 19:7-9 ESV)

Do any of these verses say that the marriage supper of The Lamb has taken place by this point? Quite the contrary, we are told that the bride has finally made herself ready for marriage. It is now time (at this point in John’s vision) to say, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” (Rev 19:9)

When is this time? Well what point are we at in John’s vision? Jesus is returning to fight the battle of Armageddon, and now is the time for the marriage and the marriage supper. It hasn’t happened yet. It’s time for it to happen.

If you'd like to pretend that there are not a multitude of people in heaven as the scripture states.. and deny the simple fact that it is said that the marriage of the Lamb is come.. then go right ahead.

IMO it could not be more clear.
 
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Kingdom_Come

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And yours is?

Rev 12 says absolutely nothing about the church of God.. after the first three chapters mentioned it perhaps 100 times..

Did the Holy Spirit somehow forget how to tell us that this was the church?

The context is once again.. the things which shall be hereafter and Israel shall have the testimony of Christ in that Day..

So only the word church can mean church? Saints are not members of the church? Those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ are not members of the church? I’m not adding to what it says. I am merely reading what it says and accepting it. How can someone who has the testimony of Jesus Christ not be part of the church?


If you'd like to pretend that there are not a multitude of people in heaven as the scripture states.. and deny the simple fact that it is said that the marriage of the Lamb is come.. then go right ahead.

IMO it could not be more clear.

I intend to until if and when it is proven otherwise. Just because John sees people in heaven before Christ returns does not mean he sees the entire church in heaven before Christ returns. After all, the dead are with Christ and will return with Christ just as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4.
 
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So only the word church can mean church? Saints are not members of the church? Those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ are not members of the church? I’m not adding to what it says. I am merely reading what it says and accepting it. How can someone who has the testimony of Jesus Christ not be part of the church?


Perhaps because you're reading the present into its context.. although again, the context here is the things which shall be hereafter.. and John just finished describing Israel being with child and protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years.. with Michael protecting them... what a coincidence.. the exact thing which Daniel says concerning Israel in the time of the end.

Finally.. you're the one plugging in the church here when it doesn't say the church.. it says those who have the testimony of Christ.. and it refers to that time.. in that Day..

I intend to until if and when it is proven otherwise. Just because John sees people in heaven before Christ returns does not mean he sees the entire church in heaven before Christ returns. After all, the dead are with Christ and will return with Christ just as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4.

It would be impossible to have people in heaven if the resurrection had not happened yet.. and 1 Thess 4 speaks of the dead in Christ rising first (this is a bodily resurrection) and those who are alive meeting the Lord in the air..

Hebrews speaks of the SPIRITS of just men made perfect in Mount Sion.. not their bodies.. although Revelation 19 speaks of people being in heaven.. and that demands that the resurrection has already happened.

Regardless of any of this.. it's crstal clear that the marriage of the Lamb is come and that these are following Him when He does come..

I'm sure that this simple truth shall be denied to no end though..
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Perhaps because you're reading the present into its context.. although again, the context here is the things which shall be hereafter.. and John just finished describing Israel being with child and protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years.. with Michael protecting them... what a coincidence.. the exact thing which Daniel says concerning Israel in the time of the end.

Finally.. you're the one plugging in the church here when it doesn't say the church.. it says those who have the testimony of Christ.. and it refers to that time.. in that Day..

And you’re the one saying the church isn’t here: something it is not saying. John does not have to use the word church every time he talks about its members. The word church is used early in Revelation because John is actually addressing specific churches that existed during his lifetime. In other words, they were specific congregations of saints that he wanted to address. Were those the only churches that existed? The saints of God comprise one body of believers all of whom may attend individual churches, but all of whom belong to one church. It’s like saying I’m not talking about a vehicle when I use the word car. Is not a car a vehicle?

It would be impossible to have people in heaven if the resurrection had not happened yet.. and 1 Thess 4 speaks of the dead in Christ rising first (this is a bodily resurrection) and those who are alive meeting the Lord in the air..

Hebrews speaks of the SPIRITS of just men made perfect in Mount Sion.. not their bodies.. although Revelation 19 speaks of people being in heaven.. and that demands that the resurrection has already happened.

Where is Christ? Where are the dead that Paul says God will bring with Him when He comes? Where does Paul say we go when we are absent from the body? I guess the question is, where do you think The Lord is?

Regardless of any of this.. it's crstal clear that the marriage of the Lamb is come and that these are following Him when He does come..

I'm sure that this simple truth shall be denied to no end though..

Read Revelation 19 again.
 
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And you’re the one saying the church isn’t here: something it is not saying. John does not have to use the word church every time he talks about its members. The word church is used early in Revelation because John is actually addressing specific churches that existed during his lifetime. In other words, they were specific congregations of saints that he wanted to address. Were those the only churches that existed? The saints of God comprise one body of believers all of whom may attend individual churches, but all of whom belong to one church. It’s like saying I’m not talking about a vehicle when I use the word car. Is not a car a vehicle?

If you'd like to believe that this is the church, regardless of the fact that the church of God is found nowhere in the context, then go right ahead.. I'm sure you'll also continue to believe that Matthew 24 is about the church of God as well, regardless of the fact that it didn't exist at the time this was explained to the Apostles and regardless of the fact that its stated context is those who are in Judaea and that their flight may not be on the Sabbath day.

Where is Christ?

At the right hand of the Father..

Where are the dead that Paul says God will bring with Him when He comes?

According to Hebrews.. they are the spirits of just men made perfect.. not their bodies.. this is why THEY (the deceased in Christ) are raised FIRST when Christ does come.. because their bodies are still in the grave.

Add to this the fact that no man has ascended into heaven but the Son of man who is in heaven.. and perhaps you might understand this.

Where does Paul say we go when we are absent from the body? I guess the question is, where do you think The Lord is?

See above.

Read Revelation 19 again.

I've read it many times and can easily see that the marriage of the Lamb takes place in heaven before the Lord comes and destroys the armies which are gathered against Him.. with the resurrected saints following..
 
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TPeterY

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What is the Day of The Lord? Once again, there’s a lot of commentary. Some points I can agree with, but overall, these Scriptures do not mean what you claim they do. They do not point to a pre-tribulation rapture. We aren’t debating whether or not many of these passages in question are talking about the rapture (resurrection). Although there are some you are trying to make fit even though they do not, our discussion is really about whether or not any of these passages demonstrate a pre-tribulation timing of the rapture.

That's funny, I don't recall writing anything about "The Day of The Lord" being a Pre-Trib rapture from the post you quote me.

But since you brought it up, quest what? It does mean The 2nd Coming (Rev 19: Christ on a White Horse) as well a a Pre-Trib Rapture. Plus, I'm gonna show you something in reference to the other posts you linked concerning the Blood Moons in a Pre-Trib Rapture and Darken Moon during His 2nd Coming.

Joel 2:28-32
New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Spirit Poured Out


28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,

Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.


See where it said the great and awesome day of the Lord right after the Blood Moons? This day of the Lord is the Rapture, not the 2nd Coming. We got the 4 Blood Moons coming April 15, 2014 to Sept 28, 2015. In case you think this Day of the Lord is the 2nd Coming, where's the antichrist?

Joel 2:28-32 spoke about the days before the Rapture and ended at verse 32. Joel 3:1-16 talks about the Tribulation. You can check the bible, I didn't remove any verses either.

Joel 3:1-16
New King James Version (NKJV)

God Judges the Nations


1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3 They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.
4 “Indeed, what have you to do with Me,
O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia?
Will you retaliate against Me?
But if you retaliate against Me,
Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head;
5 Because you have taken My silver and My gold,
And have carried into your temples My prized possessions.
6 Also the people of Judah and the people of Jerusalem
You have sold to the Greeks,
That you may remove them far from their borders.
7 “Behold, I will raise them
Out of the place to which you have sold them,
And will return your retaliation upon your own head.
8 I will sell your sons and your daughters
Into the hand of the people of Judah,
And they will sell them to the Sabeans,[a]
To a people far off;
For the Lord has spoken.”
9 Proclaim this among the nations:
“Prepare for war!
Wake up the mighty men,
Let all the men of war draw near,
Let them come up.
10 Beat your plowshares into swords
And your pruning hooks into spears;
Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’”
11 Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O Lord.
12 “Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow—
For their wickedness is great.”
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.

16 The Lord also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the Lord will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.


At verse 14,This day of the Lord is the 2nd Coming. Now i'm gonna show you something you made mistakes on with the threads you posted after this. And this is important because here it talks about the sun and the moon will grow dark and the stars will diminish their brightness. (This is NOT the 4 Blood Moon everyone is talking about).

This is important because so many people make this same mistake. I can't tell you how many websites and Youtube videos I've seen of people making this same mistake. The 4 Blood Moons are signs from the 6th Seal. All the Seals are signs, only Trumpets and Bowls are wrath and judgement.

Now I'll explain the difference. The 4 Blood Moons have no star in it's description. Check all the bible and you'll see when it talks about the moon as a sign, there's no star involved.

Now look at verse 15 again. This verse is describing Jesus' 2nd Coming on a White Horse at the battle of Armageddon. Verse 15 is talking about war. The sun and the moon covered and darken from the smoke from nuclear warheads. Guess what the stars are?

Joel 3:15
New King James Version (NKJV)

15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.


-----------------------------------

Want additional proof? Compare Rev 6:12 with Matthew 24:29.

Revelation 6:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances


12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.


See any stars here in Rev 6:12? This is a sign before the Rapture. (not necessarily immediately after the sign). The rapture happened at Rev 7:9.

Matthew 24:29
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Coming of the Son of Man


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


See the stars in Matthew 24:29? This is an all out nuclear war and the smoke covering the sun and the moon (Armageddon), and the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

Now you can delete all those other post you linked after this one because they're irrelevant.

The end of the age is the end of this present age. It is at His coming that this age ends. No He isn’t speaking of the end of the church age. Rather, He is speaking of the end of the age of gentile domination: the same times of the gentiles we read about in Luke. He is speaking about the time when what we know ends, and His reign on earth begins. The end of this age does not come until the gospel has been preached to the whole world (in space and time), and He doesn’t return until the end of the age. It’s simple algebra. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. In other words, if the above is true, then Jesus doesn’t return until the gospel has been preached to the whole world. However, what is not implied in that statement is that the church is gone the moment this is done. It merely means that this necessity has been met, and now the end can and will come. Once again, focus on the question the disciples asked at the beginning of Matthew 24. Jesus’ entire discourse is related to that subject: the things leading up to it, the things immediately preceding it, and some warnings about it. He doesn’t shift gears and start talking about a completely different subject. His subject remains the same: His second coming and the end of the world (age). Everything else He says during this discourse pertains to those two things in one way or another: the parables, the warnings, the command to watch, all of it.

I'm not gonna go and re-explain what "The End of the Age" means. I told you what it meant, if you accept it, that's great, if you don't, that's fine. I'm not here to kill time debating over the same topic and get nowhere accomplishing nothing. Just here to answer your questions and explain what I know. You decide if you'll accept them.
 
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TPeterY

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Paul appears to know more than you give him credit for.

“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:16-17 ESV)

Dead rising sounds like a resurrection to me (as in the first resurrection John describes in Revelation 20).

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,…And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.” (2 Thes 2:1-3 & 8)

Once again, Paul addresses the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him. Only this time he goes into more detail. Certain things must happen before that day can arrive: the rebellion (falling away) and the revealing of the man of sin. He goes on to reveal that this lawless one will be destroyed by His coming. One subject: the coming of the Lord. Two things connected to it: the gathering of the church and the destruction of the man of sin. This is the same coming of The Lord and gathering (or catching away) that Paul spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 4, yet here he reveals that the man of sin will be destroyed at that time as well.

At the end of it all, you have proven my case. Your entire attempt to prove a pre-tribulation rapture rests upon us inferring it based on certain passages that actually do not say it. For example, once again you point to Matthew 24:40-42. You then say, “see! One will be taken and another left. This is the rapture! Can’t you see that? What else could it be? ” And while this is describing the gathering, the passage does not mention it being pre-tribulation; and a post-tribulation understanding (or understanding that this will happen at the second coming) is just as plausible an explanation as the one you propose. The difference is that the second coming is proven and not in question. What’s more, this is exactly the subject Jesus is discussing throughout Matthew 24. The pre-tribulation position remains unproven. In other words, He is describing the manner in which the elect will be gathered: the same elect He said He would send His angels to gather earlier in this same chapter. He has not changed His topic to a secret rapture. He is still talking about the second coming and the gathering of the elect that happens at that time.

As usual, you ignore the fact that Jesus Himself said He would gather His elect at His second coming, and that it would happen immediately after the tribulation of those days (meaning the days in which these things take place). This understanding fits virtually any description of the same event anywhere else it is described such as 1 Thessalonians 4. Ergo, it makes sense that Paul is referring to and describing the same event, not a different one, especially since he doesn’t even attempt to distinguish it from the second coming.

You're kidding me right, you actually think 1st Th 4:16-17 is the same as 2nd Thes 2:1-3 & 8?

Wanna know why the description are different? It's because Paul wrote the first book of Thessalonians about the church and the rapture. He wrote the second book about the Tribulation and the 2nd Coming --- what little knowledge he has of it. And the reason why is because God gave John the vision of the end, not Paul. So Paul only wrote what he knew.

Also why would Paul write 2 "short" books about the same things if you think 1st Thes 4:16-17 and 2nd Thes 2:1-3 & 8 are the same? Also ask yourself, if he wanted to talk about the same thing, he could of combined both small books into one.

Also this, read all the first book of Thes, it only talks about the church. Look at the 2nd book, it talks about God's Final judgment and Glory, The Great Apostasy and man's sin.

--------------------------------

Okay, since you're so convinced the word Gathering means the Rapture, now prove to me where in the bible it said that?
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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You're kidding me right, you actually think 1st Th
Okay, since you're so convinced the word Gathering means the Rapture, now prove to me where in the bible it said that?

Here you go. This is the rapture, not the second coming.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Cheers
 
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Shocker

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Here you go. This is the rapture, not the second coming.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Cheers

That is your understanding.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So is the rapture when we "meet" the Lord in the air, or when the angels "gather" his elect?

I see different scenarios than what you are proposing..
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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That is your understanding.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So is the rapture when we "meet" the Lord in the air, or when the angels "gather" his elect?

I see different scenarios than what you are proposing..

Yes, these two scriptures are describing the same thing. Lets compare:

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
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Shocker

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Yes, these two scriptures are describing the same thing. Lets compare:

Matthew 24:30-31
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



2 Esd 13: 1611 KJV

15 Shew me now yet the interpretation of this dream.

16 For as I conceive in mine understanding, woe unto them that shall be left in those days and much more woe unto them that are not left behind!

17 For they that were not left were in heaviness.

18 Now understand I the things that are laid up in the latter days, which shall happen unto them(Those in heaviness), and to those that are left behind.

19 Therefore are they come into great perils and many necessities, like as these dreams declare.

20 Yet is it easier for him that is in danger to come into these things, than to pass away as a cloud out of the world, and not to see the things that happen in the last days. And he answered unto me, and said,

21 The interpretation of the vision shall I shew thee, and I will open unto thee the thing that thou hast required.

22 Whereas thou hast spoken of them that are left behind, this is the interpretation:

23 He that shall endure the peril in that time hath kept himself: they that be fallen into danger are such as have works, and faith toward the Almighty.

24 Know this therefore, that they which be left behind are more blessed than they that be dead.

25 This is the meaning of the vision: Whereas thou sawest a man coming up from the midst of the sea:

26 The same is he whom God the Highest hath kept a great season, which by his own self shall deliver his creature: and he shall order them that are left behind.

27 And whereas thou sawest, that out of his mouth there came as a blast of wind, and fire, and storm;

28 And that he held neither sword, nor any instrument of war, but that the rushing in of him destroyed the whole multitude that came to subdue him; this is the interpretation:

29 Behold, the days come, when the most High will begin to deliver them that are upon the earth.

30 And he shall come to the astonishment of them that dwell on the earth
 
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