Scattershooting about the Rapture, Harvests, Antichrist etc.

Bible2 · Mar 19, 2014

iamlamad said in post 78:

I know where the great multitude came from. It remains to be seen if you do or not. They were raptured to heaven just before John saw them in heaven.

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

iamlamad said in post 78:

Paul does tell us we will meet Jesus in the air and in the clouds at Paul's pretrib rapture.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16) so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

iamlamad said in post 78:

I think John knows what order things will happen.

That's right.

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21) and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

Bible2 · Mar 19, 2014

Choose Wisely said in post 79:

Noah was instructed to enter the ark 7 days before the flood.

Genesis 7:9-10 doesn't say Noah entered the ark for the last time 7 days before the flood. It just means he spent the 7 days before the flood bringing all the animals into the ark. For Genesis 7:11,13 and Luke 17:27 show that Noah entered the ark for the last time the same day the flood started.

Similarly, Genesis 7:13-14 means the same day the flood started (Genesis 7:11), Noah and his family entered the ark for the last time, and all the animals had finished being loaded onto the ark.

Choose Wisely said in post 79:

It is the wrath of God that is happening in Matt 24, not the 2nd coming.

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' physical, visible return in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future 2nd coming from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).

Choose Wisely said in post 79:

What makes you conclude that Mystery Babylon is destroyed at the time of the 7th vial?

Revelation 16:19

Choose Wisely · Mar 19, 2014

Bible2;65217499]

Genesis 7:9-10 doesn't say Noah entered the ark for the last time 7 days before the flood. It just means he spent the 7 days before the flood bringing all the animals into the ark.

Like I said, it is impossible for Noah, his family and ALL the animals to enter the ark on the same self day.......and then spend 7 days doing it.

For Genesis 7:11,13 and Luke 17:27 show that Noah entered the ark for the last time the same day the flood started.

They went in as they were commanded. And it came to pass after 7 days..........
Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Luke 17 only says that they were eating and drinking and marrying UNTIL THE DAY THAT NOAH ENTERED THE ARK. We know that NOAH ENTERED THE ARK..........THE DAY HE WAS COMMANDED TO ENTER. Don't you think that dark clouds were forming......the animals were acting crazy.....the earth was rumbling before the fountains of the deep were opened?

Luke 17
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Similarly, Genesis 7:13-14 means the same day the flood started (Genesis 7:11), Noah and his family entered the ark for the last time, and all the animals had finished being loaded onto the ark.

You keep adding FOR THE LAST TIME. So how many times do you think that Noah, his family and ALL the animals entered the ark. Likely it would be the day that Noah was instructed to enter. Noah entered.......the door was shut..and it came to pass after 7 days............

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' physical, visible return in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future 2nd coming from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).

We see Jesus in the clouds in Rev 14......we also see a harvest in Rev 14. We see Jesus in the clouds in Matt 24.......we also see one taken and one left in Matt 24. The ones that are left are in the wrath of God as we can see in Rev 14....Rev 6.....Matt 24

Revelation 16:19

We can see Babylon fallen in Rev 14

Rev 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

We can also see that it is before the wrath of God begins.

Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Choose Wisely · Mar 19, 2014

Babylon is the destroying mountain that destroys the earth. Religion from Babylon is the source of false religion all over the world.

All these false religions have something in common.....the sun, the moon and the stars. Look at Hinduism, Shintoism, Buddhism.......the sun, the moon and the stars. Look at all these religions.......same story.....just a different verse.

Now take Islam. What make Islam different from these other religions. All these other religions have the sun god as the male and the moon as the female. Islam has the moon god as the male.

Point is that Babylon is the source of world wide blindness.

Choose Wisely · Mar 19, 2014

Now the Church of Rome......Mystery Babylon.....the woman that is arrayed in purple and scarlet. How is the Church of Rome Mystery Babylon.

We celebrate the birth of Jesus on Dec 25th. But it is not the birth date of Jesus. It is the birth date of the sun god. There are plenty of sun gods with the same birth date.......but the original god is Tammuz. Tammuz is the supposed son of Nimrod......after he died and became the sun.....in their religion. Semiramis was the wife of Nimrod....but was also Nimrods mother. When she became pregnant she claimed that she became pregnant by the ray of the sun.......and her sun was Tammuz. You might know Tammuz as Horus, Apollo or many other names.

The church of Rome began to celebrate the birth of Jesus sometime around 336. A few year later Pope Julius I officially declared the birth of Jesus would be celebrated on Dec 25th.

The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon. It has Christians celebrating the birth of their God on the birth date of the god of Babylon.

iamlamad · Mar 19, 2014

Choose Wisely said:
Now the Church of Rome......Mystery Babylon.....the woman that is arrayed in purple and scarlet. How is the Church of Rome Mystery Babylon.

We celebrate the birth of Jesus on Dec 25th. But it is not the birth date of Jesus. It is the birth date of the sun god. There are plenty of sun gods with the same birth date.......but the original god is Tammuz. Tammuz is the supposed son of Nimrod......after he died and became the sun.....in their religion. Semiramis was the wife of Nimrod....but was also Nimrods mother. When she became pregnant she claimed that she became pregnant by the ray of the sun.......and her sun was Tammuz. You might know Tammuz as Horus, Apollo or many other names.

The church of Rome began to celebrate the birth of Jesus sometime around 336. A few year later Pope Julius I officially declared the birth of Jesus would be celebrated on Dec 25th.

The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon. It has Christians celebrating the birth of their God on the birth date of the god of Babylon.

There is little doubt that all false religions had their origin in Babylon. That is why, when the worst religious deception of all time originates from Jerusalem during the last half of the 70th week, God calls Jerusalem MYSTERY Babylon. All false religions up to date will pale into insignificance compared to what is coming when the Beast and False prophet begin their campaign to make the enter world serve Allah.

LAMAD

Choose Wisely · Mar 19, 2014

The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon.

Ever notice that the Jewish Passover does not usually fall at the same time as Easter.

That's because in 325AD the date of Easter was set at the council of Nicaea. Easter was set as the first full moon that falls on or after the vernal spring equinox.

The goddess Easter is the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar is Semiramis.

The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon. It has Christians celebrating the resurrection of the savior at the time that honors the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar goes by many names such as Isis of Egypt, Diana, Libera, Madonna etc.

dfw69 · Mar 19, 2014

Choose Wisely said:
The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon.

Ever notice that the Jewish Passover does not usually fall at the same time as Easter.

That's because in 325AD the date of Easter was set at the council of Nicaea. Easter was set as the first full moon that falls on or after the vernal spring equinox.

The goddess Easter is the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar is Semiramis.

The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon. It has Christians celebrating the resurrection of the savior at the time that honors the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar goes by many names such as Isis of Egypt, Diana, Libera, Madonna etc.

No way ... Mystery Babylon is yet to be revealed

iamlamad · Mar 19, 2014

Choose Wisely said:
The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon.

Ever notice that the Jewish Passover does not usually fall at the same time as Easter.

That's because in 325AD the date of Easter was set at the council of Nicaea. Easter was set as the first full moon that falls on or after the vernal spring equinox.

The goddess Easter is the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar is Semiramis.

The Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon. It has Christians celebrating the resurrection of the savior at the time that honors the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar goes by many names such as Isis of Egypt, Diana, Libera, Madonna etc.

The church of Rome is NO MYSTERY! We all know about it. What is a mystery - and you are proving this very point - is Jerusalem, GOD's city, where He planned on spreading the knowledge of Himself around the world. But Jerusalem turned apostate, and will (in the future) become the center for the worst deception every foisted upon humans. It will be on a level never before seen on the earth. It will deceive all humans in the world EXCEPT those whose names are written in heaven.

Today there are people on every side of every fence of doctrine. Coming in the last half of the week, God will clear up all confusion and people will be FORCED to make a decision either for or against the great image and Mark to come. There will be no hundreds of choices of doctrines or denominations: it will be either take the mark and be doomed, or refuse the mark and lose your head. Many believe there will be a third option: DON'T COUNT ON IT! God has already given authority for the Beast to come to OVERCOME the saints. There IS NO third option - except God shorten the days. Perhaps the Beast will not get to everyone in the world who refuses the mark before God ends his reign of terror by pouring on the vials. However, in the USA, believers are ALREADY KNOWN.

LAMAD

Shocker · Mar 19, 2014

iamlamad said:
The church of Rome is NO MYSTERY! We all know about it. What is a mystery - and you are proving this very point - is Jerusalem, GOD's city, where He planned on spreading the knowledge of Himself around the world. But Jerusalem turned apostate, and will (in the future) become the center for the worst deception every foisted upon humans. It will be on a level never before seen on the earth. It will deceive all humans in the world EXCEPT those whose names are written in heaven.

Today there are people on every side of every fence of doctrine. Coming in the last half of the week, God will clear up all confusion and people will be FORCED to make a decision either for or against the great image and Mark to come. There will be no hundreds of choices of doctrines or denominations: it will be either take the mark and be doomed, or refuse the mark and lose your head. Many believe there will be a third option: DON'T COUNT ON IT! God has already given authority for the Beast to come to OVERCOME the saints. There IS NO third option - except God shorten the days. Perhaps the Beast will not get to everyone in the world who refuses the mark before God ends his reign of terror by pouring on the vials. However, in the USA, believers are ALREADY KNOWN.

LAMAD

Interesting perspective, I agree for the most part..

Choose Wisely · Mar 19, 2014

iamlamad said:
The church of Rome is NO MYSTERY! We all know about it.

LAMAD

Really. And yet you go to church on the lords day...Baals day....SUNday.
How is it that EVERYONE does not honor God on the Sabbath...the commanded day of worship?

I would say it is because Mystery Babylon has blinded the world.

dfw69 · Mar 19, 2014

Choose Wisely said:
Really. And yet you go to church on the lords day...Baals day....SUNday.
How is it that EVERYONE does not honor God on the Sabbath...the commanded day of worship?

I would say it is because Mystery Babylon has blinded the world.

One day angels will be seen flying above ... They will reveal who Babylon is....they command to leave the city ..before her destruction

Babylon is yet to be built zech 5 in the land of shinar

Choose Wisely · Mar 19, 2014

dfw69 said:
One day angels will be seen flying above ... They will reveal who Babylon is....they command to leave the city ..before her destruction

Babylon is yet to be built zech 5 in the land of shinar

There is a difference between Babylon and Mystery Babylon

dfw69 · Mar 19, 2014

Choose Wisely said:
There is a difference between Babylon and Mystery Babylon

I believe many are making Rome a scapegoat ... If it is (quote) "supernaturally" destroyed ... They will say prophecy is being fulfilled ... The purpose is to end Christianity as we know it and usher in law and noachide law which will in fact be true mystery Babylon ...the ushering in of the final false religion.. TORAH LAW FOR JEWS ...NOACHIDE LAW FOR GENTILES...under a false messiah

Question...is Babylonian Talmud responsible for roman Catholic Church authority ? If so it's just one of many .... The final false religion gets it's authority from Babylonian Talmud teachings imo

sculleywr · Mar 19, 2014

I'm sorry, but I choose not to believe any theory that came about as a result of a 14 year old being heavily drugged and having a vision. Just my two cents. It was probably a hallucination

Choose Wisely · Mar 19, 2014

dfw69;65223130] I believe many are making Rome a scapegoat ... If it is (quote) "supernaturally" destroyed ...

Why do you believe that Mystery Babylon is supernaturally destroyed?

Bible2 · Mar 20, 2014

Choose Wisely said in post 83:

We can see Babylon fallen in Rev 14

Rev 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Just as the fall of current mankind occurred some 6,000 years ago with the fall of Adam (Romans 5:19), yet unsaved, current mankind won't be destroyed until sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Matthew 10:28), so the fall of Revelation's figurative "Babylon" (Revelation 14:8) occurred some 6,000 years ago. For Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of Adamic mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). But Revelation's "Babylon" won't be destroyed until the 7th vial of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19,17), the final event of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

*******

Choose Wisely said in post 91:

How is it that EVERYONE does not honor God on the Sabbath...the commanded day of worship?

Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, don't have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the 10 commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13) was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b) which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18) in which believers are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

Saying believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as wrong as saying believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If believers keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking they have to, they're as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as believers who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking they have to (Galatians 5:2). They've become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They've placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10).

So no believer should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Believers need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Believers must never judge other believers for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

For its letter was merely a shadow; now it all comes down to Jesus himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30) which all believers enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4) exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

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Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John the apostle. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

But it's not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week. Christians are never to judge each other over this matter but are simply to do what they believe Jesus wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point isn't for Christians to esteem days but to focus on the person of Jesus himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

Bible2 · Mar 20, 2014

iamlamad said in post 86:

All false religions up to date will pale into insignificance compared to what is coming when the Beast and False prophet begin their campaign to make the enter world serve Allah.

Note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

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During the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing he's the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he's Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason it's important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold
from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could lie and say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

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iamlamad said in post 89:

God has already given authority for the Beast to come to OVERCOME the saints.

Revelation 13:7-10 refers to the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), being allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13). There are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean every person in the church will be overcome. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 89:

There IS NO third option - except God shorten the days.

Mark 13:20 can mean all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

iamlamad · Mar 20, 2014

Choose Wisely said:
Really. And yet you go to church on the lords day...Baals day....SUNday.
How is it that EVERYONE does not honor God on the Sabbath...the commanded day of worship?

I would say it is because Mystery Babylon has blinded the world.

Yet, the disciples and Paul went to church on Sunday - BEFORE the Catholic church came into existence. Jesus is LORD of the sabbath. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.

I also find it VERY interesting that those that do worship on Saturday HAVE NO POWER and ignore Acts 1 & 2. (Yet, like a CULT - they believe they are the ONLY ONES with the truth.) Worse yet, their end time doctrine is a COMPLETE mess - wrong from every aspect. Worshiping on Sunday is most certainly NOT the mark of the Beast.

Is Sunday Baal's day? When then did Jesus RISE on Sunday? Perhaps God was confused? Why did the disciples began meeting on Sunday?

LAMAD

iamlamad · Mar 20, 2014

dfw69 said:
One day angels will be seen flying above ... They will reveal who Babylon is....they command to leave the city ..before her destruction

Babylon is yet to be built zech 5 in the land of shinar

Wow! Doctrines here keep getting wilder! Are you speaking of the Babylon mentioned in the book of Revelation?

Do you imagine that the Beast of Rev. 13 will enter this new Babylon and commit his abomination there?

LAMAD

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