Mission/outreach - what works?

savedbygrace05 · Mar 16, 2014

ebia said:
I can only conclude from that that you've missed pretty much the whole point of the bible.

Jn 3: 16 - 18 (aka the Gospel in a nutshell);

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son."

ebia · Mar 16, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
Jn 3: 16 - 18 (aka the Gospel in a nutshell); "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son."

It's true, but it's not really "the gospel in a nutshell", or even a gospel at all on its own. Let alone the sum total of the bible.

When you said "the whole council of god" you actually meant "just one verse"?

savedbygrace05 · Mar 16, 2014

ebia said:
It's true, but it's not really "the gospel in a nutshell", or even a gospel at all on its own. Let alone the sum total of the bible.

When you said "the whole council of god" you actually meant "just one verse"?

No, the metanarrative

ebia · Mar 16, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
No, the metanarrative

The meta narrative doesn't need mention of hell whatsoever.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 16, 2014

ebia said:
The meta narrative doesn't need mention of hell whatsoever.

The biblical metanarrative does!

JamieRedhead · Mar 16, 2014

I think the best way to show Christ's love is how you live your life.

theFijian · Mar 16, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
What Does It Mean to Preach the Whole Counsel of God? - Justin Taylor

I thought this thread was about outreach/mission, so why are you invoking a speech that Paul made to the Ephesian elders and not to unbelievers? Could it be that you either (a) don't understand the meaning of that passage (b) are quoting scripture out of context (c) both.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 16, 2014

theFijian said:
I thought this thread was about outreach/mission, so why are you invoking a speech that Paul made to the Ephesian elders and not to unbelievers? Could it be that you either (a) don't understand the meaning of that passage (b) are quoting scripture out of context (c) both.

Or (d) in conversation with another site user

theFijian · Mar 16, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
Or (d) in conversation with another site user

No I'm pretty sure you first introduced the whole counsel of God to me.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 17, 2014

theFijian said:
No I'm pretty sure you first introduced the whole counsel of God to me.

That may be true, but you must learn to read comments in context.

theFijian · Mar 17, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
That may be true, but you must learn to read comments in context.

Yes, the context was someone objecting to pressurising and manipulative tactics in mission/outreach, I gave an example of a pressurising/manipulative tactic, you invoked a speech given by Paul to the Ephesian Elders, a speech not given to unbelievers in the context of outreach but to church leaders in the context of an already established church. So yes, you must learn to read in context.

MikeBigg · Mar 17, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
God is Holy and wrathful towards unrepentant sinners

You say that, but ...

God loves us - even when we were sinners. And He showed His love for us by sending His only begotten Son. And remember - it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance.

Does your church ever sing the hymn/song "In Christ Alone"?

This is verse 2:

In Christ alone! - who took on flesh,
Fullness of God in helpless babe.
This gift of love and righteousness,
Scorned by the ones He came to save:
Till on that cross as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid;
Here in the death of Christ I live.

what do you do with the line I "bolded"?

Kind regards,

Mike

MikeBigg · Mar 17, 2014

I find friendship works ... not just for "pew filling", but also for a richer, rounder life - more friends = better.

I'm also interested in the idea of "pastoral evangelism" (has that phrase been used before?) where pastoral care is extended outside the church. I guess things like CAP comes under this heading ... as would less organised things, like helping people with their shopping when they can't get out, clearing gutters for a neighbour etc. Practical and spiritual pastoring.

Youth clubs. I know a church in a nearby city that runs a youth club on the estate for all youth who want to come. This is not a "church" youth group and there is no explicit Christian content. No prayers or a quick preach at the end for example. However, as relationships with the youth builds some may express an interest and they are invited to a smaller group that would probably go through the "Journeys" course over a 6 week period.

They use the same model for other age groups, too - running a lunch club for senior citizens, for example.

I have been involved with the Healing on the Streets initiative. Whilst the number of people "saved" as a direct result is quite small, the number of people who get healed or prayed for is significant.

Street Pastors is another thing that I hear good things about, though I am not involved myself. And lots of drunk, vulnerable women helped to get home safely.

Regards,

Mike

savedbygrace05 · Mar 17, 2014

MikeBigg said:
You say that, but ...

God loves us - even when we were sinners. And He showed His love for us by sending His only begotten Son. And remember - it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance.

Does your church ever sing the hymn/song "In Christ Alone"?

This is verse 2:

what do you do with the line I "bolded"?

Kind regards,

Mike

What do you think about what God's Holy Word says in Rom 1?

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

God's wrath is only satisfied for those who make the right response to His offer of reconcilation through Jesus. His wrath remains on unrepentant, rebellious sinners!

MikeBigg · Mar 17, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
What do you think about what God's Holy Word says in Rom 1?

Answering a question with a question - is that a sidestep to avoid answering?

How does your understanding match up with Jesus' invitation:

"Come to me ... for I am gentle and humble at heart ... you will find rest for your souls" ? Matt 11: 28

Hardly wrathful.

Something happened at the Cross. Something rather significant. The debt was paid. In full. The wikipedia page on propitiation puts it like this:

The thought in the Old Testament sacrifices and in the New Testament fulfillment, is that Christ completely satisfied the just demands of our Holy Father for judgement on sin, by his death on the Cross of Calvary.

Propitiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That page also quotes a remarkable verse talking about the scope of what was accomplished on the cross:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2: 2

These are some of the reasons why I claim that God does not have wrath towards people anymore, and why modern day hymn-writers of the stature of Getty and Townend can write "The wrath of God is satisfied" and have it become the most downloaded song at the on-line worship song resource songselect.com and is used and accepted in churches round the world.

Regards,

Mike

savedbygrace05 · Mar 17, 2014

MikeBigg said:
Answering a question with a question - is that a sidestep to avoid answering?

How does your understanding match up with Jesus' invitation:

"Come to me ... for I am gentle and humble at heart ... you will find rest for your souls" ? Matt 11: 28

Hardly wrathful.

Something happened at the Cross. Something rather significant. The debt was paid. In full. The wikipedia page on propitiation puts it like this:

The thought in the Old Testament sacrifices and in the New Testament fulfillment, is that Christ completely satisfied the just demands of our Holy Father for judgement on sin, by his death on the Cross of Calvary.

Propitiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That page also quotes a remarkable verse talking about the scope of what was accomplished on the cross:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2: 2

These are some of the reasons why I claim that God does not have wrath towards people anymore, and why modern day hymn-writers of the stature of Getty and Townend can write "The wrath of God is satisfied" and have it become the most downloaded song at the on-line worship song resource songselect.com and is used and accepted in churches round the world.

Regards,

Mike

I would always turn to the living word of the living God before hymn writers and hymns. Yes something happened at the Cross, but that something has to be responded to on an individual basis before this life is over. Otherwise individuals will face Judgement Day and God's Wrath, the bible is quite clear on this!

You say that God is no longer wrathful towards people, does that also mean that you deny the existence of hell? If so, I would like to see your biblical support for such a claim!

2 Pet 3: 7 "By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

P.S. You have, imo, taken Matt 11: 28 out of context. Verse 28 is better understood in light of v. 25.

MikeBigg · Mar 18, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
I would always turn to the living word of the living God before hymn writers and hymns.

Same here, and I did. But have you considered the scrutiny that hymn writers are under? I know that Graham Kendrick and Godfrey Birtill pass their songs past a theologian before going public with them, I imagine the same is true of Getty and Townend. Even if it isn't true, would it really have become so popular with dodgy theology in it? I'm not making a claim that it is as strong an argument as a verse from the Bible. but I am saying that it has some significance. Especially in the light of the fact that most Christians get a large part of their theology from the songs they sing.

Yes something happened at the Cross, but that something has to be responded to on an individual basis before this life is over. Otherwise individuals will face Judgement Day and God's Wrath, the bible is quite clear on this!

So what your saying is that people have to do something in order to be saved - that it isn't only grace?

And, what basis do you have for the idea that something has to be done before this life is over? When I looked into that, the case was far from clear cut.

You say that God is no longer wrathful towards people,

Its not only me who says this. The Bible says it and thousands of people worldwide sing it every Sunday.

does that also mean that you deny the existence of hell? If so, I would like to see your biblical support for such a claim!

No I don't deny the existence of hell. I do challenge the traditional view of it and some of the places where the English word "hell" is used in the Bible.

For example, why was "Gehenna" translated as hell not Hinnom Valley? Which is what it means. If it translated as Hinnom Valley you suddenly get a whole bunch of history feeding into what Jesus was talking about.

P.S. You have, imo, taken Matt 11: 28 out of context. Verse 28 is better understood in light of v. 25.

You'll have to explain to me why you think v25 changes the meaning of "I am gentle and humble at heart". I don't see it.

Kind regards,

Mike

ps Did you see my post about the what's working in regards to evangelism? I thought it was a worthwhile post.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 18, 2014

MikeBigg said:
So what your saying is that people have to do something in order to be saved - that it isn't only grace?

And, what basis do you have for the idea that something has to be done before this life is over? When I looked into that, the case was far from clear cut.

You'll have to explain to me why you think v25 changes the meaning of "I am gentle and humble at heart". I don't see it.

1. The Cross requires not only repentance towards God through Jesus, but also ongoing repentance daily acknowledging that we are sinners in need of fresh cleansing and forgiveness everyday - in other words seeking to live a holy life pleasing to God (much of the NT is about discipleship).

2. "At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." Who is God revealing Himself to (v. 25)? There is you answer.

Sorry I do have time to deal with other matters you posted about.

Grace and peace

MikeBigg · Mar 18, 2014

savedbygrace05 said:
2. "At that time Jesus said, ‘I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." Who is God revealing Himself to (v. 25)? There is you answer.

Are you suggesting that the "come to me ... I am gentle and humble at heart ... " invitation is only given to little children?

Sorry I do have time to deal with other matters you posted about.

No worries.

Grace and peace

And to you.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 18, 2014

MikeBigg said:
Are you suggesting that the "come to me ... I am gentle and humble at heart ... " invitation is only given to little children?

No, think about the 2 different groups talked about, then think about the world in which we live and those who accept Jesus as opposed to those who don't, then think about v. 28

"because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children"

Mission/outreach - what works?

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