THIS bible -THAT bible! what has changed and how does it effect what we believe ?

I understand about the conception of our Lord. Where does it say that she had more children? She had "step-children."
I'm confused.

I find it fascinating, as you were pointing out how "virgin" and "maiden" are intertwined between 2 cultures, our own and the one of Israel back in the day. One implies the other. Modern readers don't find these little tidbits from their daily reading.

michaelmynameIs said:

first up ..i am not a KJV preservationist .

second :It is not my intent to argue /debate this is right that's right .

It IS my intent to look at what has changed from one revision of translation to another ..particularly in our present century.

so find a verse .. detail its differences and comment on which you think is better and why - and how you think it impacts the christian faith .

discuss freely aspects around it .. and DO remember the cf rules .
if we disagree on a point let us address the point, state why we disagree with "the point".. not the poster .
---------------------------------------------
i will give one to kick us off ..

Matthew 1:25
King James Version (KJV)
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

compare to :

Matthew 1:25
American Standard Version (ASV)
25 and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

i feel the ASV is incorrect on this verse because to exclude the term "firstborn" you have to complete leave out the word "PROTOTOKOS" from the greek text .
I dont think missing a word out can possibly be a correct translation of it .

i feel it impacts our belief because it implies Mary may have had sons before JESUS ..but then that would not align with her being a virgin (one who had not known(laid with) a man ).where as the greek text plainly states PROTOTOKOS (BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH-firstborn) son.

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I did not read through the whole thread so forgive me if this was covered.

The JW New World Translation Bible states in the beginning was the word and the word was A God.
Here is direct quote of 1john 1

1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god
They add the A to make Jesus out to be a separate God completely changing the meaning.

NLT correct translation

In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

NKJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

ASB

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

to me they all say the same except for the JW Bible which makes Jesus out to be a god not part of God.

The NWT is not a bible! It is based on one and turns it into a work of fiction.

Here is a good one!

John 7:6-11

NASB, and a lot of other modern translations that people say are corrupted.

6 So Jesus said to them, " My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune.
7 " The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
8 "Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.''
9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.
10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.
11 So the Jews were seeking Him at the feast and were saying, "Where is He?''

In verse 8, Jesus is saying that He is not going to the feast, but in verse 10, He went anyway.
This makes it appear that Jesus lied OR DOES IT????

The King James says:

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: But your time is alway ready.
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
8 Go ye up unto this feast:
I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.
9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

I don't think that he lied. He changed his mind while staying in Galilee which must have been for a while. Remember feasts back then were LONG, not like a modern dinner.
It is not a lie when a person decides to do one thing and then later changes his mind to do another. A lie would mean that Jesus knew He was going to do one thing but then deliberately said he would not with the intention of deceiving people. This is not the case and the text doesn't support it.

copied and pasted from Bible Hub ...

New International Version
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

New Living Translation
"How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.

English Standard Version
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

New American Standard Bible
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

King James Bible
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Shining morning star, how you have fallen from the heavens! You destroyer of nations, you have been cut down to the ground.

International Standard Version
"How you have fallen from heaven, Day Star, son of the Dawn! How you have been thrown down to earth, you who laid low the nation!

NET Bible
Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!

GOD'S WORD® Translation
How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!

Jubilee Bible 2000
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, who didst claim the Gentiles as an inheritance!

King James 2000 Bible
How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, who did weaken the nations!

American King James Version
How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!

American Standard Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

Douay-Rheims Bible
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?

Darby Bible Translation
How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations!

English Revised Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst lay low the nations!

Webster's Bible Translation
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

World English Bible
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, who laid the nations low!

Young's Literal Translation
How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.

in many versions Lucifer's name has been removed ... from the only place in scripture it is given ... we know Satan is the great imitator ... the removing of Lucifer enables many to be deceived into believing this is the same one talked about as in Revelation 22:16. ... there is a thread in another forum here on Jesus ... someone actually quoted the passage in Isaiah and Revelation as names of Jesus ... i saw first hand where the changing had an affect ...

Isaiah's is Lucifer
Revelation's is Jesus ...

Isaiah 14:12 ... the proverb against the king of babylon ... How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut sown to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Revelation 22:16 ... Christ is to come soon ... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

copied and pasted from Bible Hub ...

New International Version
"'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.

New Living Translation
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against all your magic charms, which you use to ensnare my people like birds. I will tear them from your arms, setting my people free like birds set free from a cage.

English Standard Version
“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds, and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt lives there as birds and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let them go, even those lives whom you hunt as birds.

King James Bible
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, this is what the Lord GOD says: I am against your magic bands that you ensnare people with like birds, and I will tear them from your arms. I will free the people you have ensnared like birds.

International Standard Version
"'Therefore, this is what the Lord GOD says, "Watch out! I'm opposing your amulets with which you hunt souls as one would swat at a flying insect. I'll tear them off your arms and then deliver those people, whom you've hunted like birds.

NET Bible
"'Therefore, this is what the sovereign LORD says: Take note that I am against your wristbands with which you entrap people's lives like birds. I will tear them from your arms and will release the people's lives, which you hunt like birds.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
" 'This is what the Almighty LORD says: I'm against the magic charms that you use to trap people like birds. I will tear them from your arms and free the people that you have trapped.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Therefore thus hath the Lord GOD said; Behold, I am against your pillows, with which ye hunt there the loose souls, and I will tear them from your arms and will let the souls go, even the loose souls that ye hunt.

King James 2000 Bible
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your charms, with which you hunt the souls there like birds, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that you hunt like birds.

American King James Version
Why thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, with which you there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that you hunt to make them fly.

American Standard Version
Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold I declare against your cushions, wherewith you catch flying souls: and I will tear them off from your arms: and I will let go the souls that you catch, the souls that should fly.

Darby Bible Translation
Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, that the souls which ye catch by their means may fly away; and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, the souls that ye catch, that they may fly away.

English Revised Version
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Webster's Bible Translation
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, with which ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

World English Bible
Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I am against your pillows, with which you there hunt the souls to make [them] fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls whom you hunt to make [them] fly.

Young's Literal Translation
Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing.

Ezekiel 13:20 ... Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear the from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

this is THE verse that speaks directly against teaching the rapture ... hunting souls and taking them right away from God's outstretched, saving arms ... by telling them lies ... by deceiving them ... and it interestingly gets twisted into magic and birds and all kinds of things that were never there ...

I have posted this about 3 times,but this is the most in depth study I have found.

So take a while and enjoy this once atheist,now moderate S.DA. break it down.


214 - Changing the Word / Total Onslaught - Walte…: 214 - Changing the Word / Total Onslaught - Walter Veith - YouTube

tremble said:

I feel this verse is probably one of the most significant changes because it relates to the root of all evil. Jesus said a lot about greed/money/materialism. It's a dominant theme all throughout the gospels and the other books of the NT.

Paul makes a very bold statement about greed which is very consistent with all that Jesus said about it, too.

Some people feel that Paul was too extreme, or maybe even just a bit confused when he made that statement. And yet, maybe it is precisely BECAUSE Paul was right, that some people feel the need to change this verse.

They've replace "the" with "a". "The" refers to something specific and precise. "I want to look at the book". You know I'm talking about a specific book. "I want to look at a book". I could be talking about any book.

So are these translators trying to imply that there are many roots of evil? But if that were true, we wouldn't be talking about a "root" anymore, we'd be talking about branches. The word "root" implies something specific.

When we talk about "getting to the root cause of a problem", it's understood that we mean THE problem and not "a" selection of various problems.

And then there is the second part. "All kinds of", in todays world, is understood to be an idiomatic expression which doesn't really mean "all" at all.

For example, we can say, "I had all kinds of trouble at work today". Anyone listening will understand that we don't really mean every single kind of trouble, but rather, a few different kinds of trouble which troubled us enough to justify the exaggeration of "all kinds of".

The NIV translation seems to be implying that some people can love money without being affected by "a root" of "all kinds of" evil.

Click to expand...

Why do you assume the KJV has the correct version?

Greek has no 'a', it only has 'the'. When translating the Greek, 'a' is implied given the grammar. Sometimes 'the' is added when 'the' is not there, even though 'the' exists. I believe this is an example of that. I am not seeing how one can argue which translation is correct?

michaelmynameIs said:

oh sorry i didnt give reference ...umm above someone else posted the reference but its from the telling ..and Mary and his brothers were outside asking to speak with him (Jesus) and he said ..who are my mother and my brothers ,those who do the will of my father (paraphrased of course lol) so mary after the birth of JEsus went on to know(be sexually intimate with)her husband Joseph and have more children. but more then once the lord JESUS makes a distinction of separation between himself and the flesh connection of family .-so you right to say ..step brothers ,as there is no blood connection between them and JESUS ,Joseph is not his father ..the blood of Mary is also not in JESUS ..so they are no blood relation at all . Jesus does not have the blood of Adam (sin) in him .
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in regard to virgin and maiden .. in many old English writings a "maiden " is always a young unwed girl (to WED one has sex ) before sex, consummation,it is only a ceremony ..therefore the unmarried are virgin ).. similar to the french with Mademoiselle or madame ..and our modern MRS or Miss.

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Where are you getting that they had relations after Jesus?
Brothers in Aramaic meant any male cousin, brother, half-brother, adopted brother, etc.

michaelmynameIs said:

oh, yup nowfaith, there are a few out there ..

if foks could post just examples of them here , that would be great as more folks will get to see them .

i find they really make me stop and think .. "WHY did they change that ..

so far i have seen I -changes to WE ..Joseph changed to father ...
and words fully excluded .... and when considering the implications on the meaning ..it has made me really stop and think ....
why did they change "that" it was already clear ,simple ,concise .
what were they up to ..what was their motive in changing what did not need to be changed ???

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What I like about total onslaught, is he points out the subtly of the intended message
Of the slight twist on verses.
It brings out big issues that we would miss in a casual read.
Then he examines the theology of the translator's.

His teaching is long and in depth,it is something I visit in parts ongoing.
I have a friend here who gave me this link due to the subject being brought
Up often.

Gods word is eternal, it will prevail even through the worst translation.
What we have to keep in mind is English is not the only language.

Its important that all languages receive the truth.
For all we know there are vast mistakes in other language translations.

Our prayers go out for others in the Gospel bringing Gods Word to their people.

New Legacy said:

Where are you getting that they had relations after Jesus?
Brothers in Aramaic meant any male cousin, brother, half-brother, adopted brother, etc.

Click to expand...

That's why I was confused too.
Biblically speaking and according to the tradition of the Church (yes it's in pre-catholic writings) Mary remained a virgin.


I found this (yes it's a Catholic) site....I hold firm to what it says concerning the perpetual virginity of the Mother of our Lord.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

now faith said:

What I like about total onslaught, is he points out the subtly of the intended message
Of the slight twist on verses.
It brings out big issues that we would miss in a casual read.
Then he examines the theology of the translator's.

His teaching is long and in depth,it is something I visit in parts ongoing.
I have a friend here who gave me this link due to the subject being brought
Up often.

Gods word is eternal, it will prevail even through the worst translation.
What we have to keep in mind is English is not the only language.

Its important that all languages receive the truth.
For all we know there are vast mistakes in other language translations.

Our prayers go out for others in the Gospel bringing Gods Word to their people.

Click to expand...

AMEN!