What if Preachers Never Got Paid?

Feb 19, 2014
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From Bel's website:



The reason why no tithing money is used is because it ensures that 100% of the money that is donated goes to the operation and upkeep of the church.



In other words, this is at best a ballpark number and so could easily be way off from what is actually present.

For example, under the "utilities" it says that they took an "annual average". How was this average compiled?

They also presume a maid and gardener. Bwah? On what basis do they make that assumption?

They also presume things like dance & piano lessons, also raising questions as to what the basis is for that.

$200 a month for "modest" gifts? What?!

As an MBA, I'm just looking at their "estimation" and praying to God that these people aren't involved in the world of finance.

My mind is blown at how terrible their "attempt" is and how far removed from reality it likely well is.

OK. If all you say is true then please let the public examine the LDS church's financial records. Heck, why not get your deacon to post his up here. Also, can you please explain why the manual instructs these people to act shadily towards the IRS?
 
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Der Alte

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You and your evidence. I refuse to be your search puppet any longer.

You refute evidence and documentation except what you choose to see and believe.

You have not been my anything! You simply makes assertions without any evidence. I ask for evidence not opinion. I have been in Federal court several times, the courts require evidence not my unsupported opinion. When I was in grad school I had to document everything, I wrote, my unsupported opinion was not relevant. I do my own research, I have more than a decade of research on a thumb drive including several language resources. I don't expect anyone to do anything for me but I do expect that if people are going to attack God, Jesus, the Christian faith that they do some research and provide some evidence. Opinions are not relevant.
 
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A New Dawn

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You do realize that the church also has desk jockeys working for it full-time, right?

The admin people draw a salary, as do any janitors, building maintenance people, and others who are considered to be officially "employed" by the church.

That has to be factored in.

Why don't they offer their services for free like you believe a minister would? Doesn't a minister deserve to eat and have a roof over his head?

As far as the church leaders go, their stipends (et al) are due to their being on the job 24 / 7, thus leaving them unable to hold a regular job.

As it is, a lot of the church authorities have left high-paying jobs in order to take the leadership position (for example, Dieter F. Uchtdorf was a vice president for Lufthansa), so if money was the issue then this would make no sense.

And how is that any different from a Catholic or Protestant minister who is on the job 24/7? Or is it your assumption that Christian pastors only work on Sunday morning?
 
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Phantasman

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I did not say this.



This was my choice. And my grandmother gave me the money. I never asked her, she just slipped a check under my napkin for the entire amount.



I do not think the gift of God can be purchased, so this is not germane to our discussion. It does fit the working to make it to heaven crown.

Hey look. I am not coming down on you for the things you have done in your life. I am sure you have benefited many lost souls.

I am just saying that the Orthodox idea of church has become mixed with the very thing Jesus said to hate. Both masters are in the house.

When Christianity becomes a profession, men gain physically. I don't believe Christ or any disciple or apostle gained physically, but spiritually. So reexamine what the church today has become.

You either see it or you don't.
 
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A New Dawn

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You and your evidence. I refuse to be your search puppet any longer.

You refute evidence and documentation except what you choose to see and believe.

Unsupported statements are nothing but opinion. It is your responsibility to support your arguments.
 
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A New Dawn

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Hey look. I am not coming down on you for the things you have done in your life. I am sure you have benefited many lost souls.

I am just saying that the Orthodox idea of church has become mixed with the very thing Jesus said to hate. Both masters are in the house.

When Christianity becomes a profession, men gain physically. I don't believe Christ or any disciple or apostle gained physically, but spiritually. So reexamine what the church today has become.

You either see it or you don't.

There is a difference between "gaining" and being able to live. I'm surprised that there are so many here who would allow ministers of God to starve to death and freeze in the winter. Sheesh.
 
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Norah63

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It's clear to all who desire to see it, those who will not to, haven't yet.
How many do we think would still preach as much as they do now, if it was free will, as in communist countries.
I would and do consider it an honor to share the things of faith that have been revealed to me, and would feel insulted if money was offered.
 
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Phantasman

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You have not been my anything! You simply makes assertions without any evidence. I ask for evidence not opinion. I have been in Federal court several times, the courts require evidence not my unsupported opinion. When I was in grad school I had to document everything, I wrote, my unsupported opinion was not relevant. I do my own research, I have more than a decade of research on a thumb drive including several language resources. I don't expect anyone to do anything for me but I do expect that if people are going to attack God, Jesus, the Christian faith that they do some research and provide some evidence. Opinions are not relevant.

The ECF are evidence to you. The NHL is evidence as well. Well documented, and studied. You just simply don't believe it. I question the ECF. Because I read them. Study them. Do you read and study the NHL. Do you allow prayer and study be your spiritual guide? Or do you simply accept what has been common for 1800 years?

You have already made the comment that WIKI is like "bathroom wall scribblings". But the references for these "scribblings" are documented at the bottom of the page. Many religious articles pointing to the Catholic Encyclopedia as well as other historical references. If I quote WIKI, it "starts" someone on the further search. But you simply deny the name WIKI yet uphold the CE as all truth.

Surely the catholics are not going to stab themselves. They tried to destroy everything they didn't agree with. Now we get a chance to see if what they did was justified. And many won't even look.

A seeker seeks truth.
 
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Phantasman

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There is a difference between "gaining" and being able to live. I'm surprised that there are so many here who would allow ministers of God to starve to death and freeze in the winter. Sheesh.

If they starved to death, would they have been ministers of God?

Matthew
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?


I guess they had no faith.
 
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Ironhold

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Why don't they offer their services for free like you believe a minister would? Doesn't a minister deserve to eat and have a roof over his head?

And how is that any different from a Catholic or Protestant minister who is on the job 24/7? Or is it your assumption that Christian pastors only work on Sunday morning?

What would you do if I told you that I've known ministers who were pretty much Sunday-only?

I can think of two just off the top of my head whose anti-Mormon ministries were - by their own admission - secondary to their day jobs.
 
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Der Alte

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The ECF are evidence to you. The NHL is evidence as well. Well documented, and studied. You just simply don't believe it. I question the ECF. Because I read them. Study them. Do you read and study the NHL. Do you allow prayer and study be your spiritual guide? Or do you simply accept what has been common for 1800 years?

No I do not "study" anonymous writings. The same faults you find with the Bible and the ECF exists within the NHL. How have the NHL been documented?

You have already made the comment that WIKI is like "bathroom wall scribblings". But the references for these "scribblings" are documented at the bottom of the page. Many religious articles pointing to the Catholic Encyclopedia as well as other historical references. If I quote WIKI, it "starts" someone on the further search. But you simply deny the name WIKI yet uphold the CE as all truth.

There may be some factual information on Wiki, but there is also garbage. As I said I have changed "articles" in the past to show people, who criticize my view of wiki, that it can be done. If one wishes to find a source at Wiki and consult the primary source, I don't have a problem.

Surely the catholics are not going to stab themselves. They tried to destroy everything they didn't agree with. Now we get a chance to see if what they did was justified. And many won't even look.

A seeker seeks truth.

That cuts both ways. Surely the NHL are not going to stab themselves. I think the operative word is "tried." The RCC "tried" to destroy many things but the existence of the NHL, etc. proves they could not do it. There was no RCC until 1375. I refuse to believe that the 300+ bishops, at Nicaea, all of whom had survived years of persecution, were all corrupt. And if i am going to accept the NHL, I want to see some solid gold evidence. You got any of that? Or just your subjective opinion?
 
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Norah63

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Two more scriptures that come to mind Acts 3:1.... Peter and John going to pray and a lame man asked for alms, Peter said I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene--walk!
Also acts 8;18 Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed, he offered money to receive, and Peter said, May your silver perish with you, to think you could obtain the gift of God with money.
These make it pretty clear that the early church didn't lean on the dollar.
 
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~Anastasia~

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There is a difference between "gaining" and being able to live. I'm surprised that there are so many here who would allow ministers of God to starve to death and freeze in the winter. Sheesh.

For myself, not arguing mind you, but I simply answered the question whether *I* would preach if I were called and not paid?

That does not mean I don't think preachers should be paid. Those pastors/preachers/priests/whatever that are full-time ministers should indeed have a way to live. And while I don't have a church atm, if I did, I would prefer one with a ministering leader who did that as his full time job, and I believe he should be paid for that.

I wasn't advocating anyone starving and freezing. Merely saying (as the question asked) that I will still do it without pay, if that were the case (and if I were called).

The question is kind of loaded that way. But ... you do have a point that several are voicing an opinion that ministers should not be paid. I just wanted to clarify my position, since I had posted here. :)
 
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Lollerskates

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There is a difference between "gaining" and being able to live. I'm surprised that there are so many here who would allow ministers of God to starve to death and freeze in the winter. Sheesh.

I wouldn't want a minister to starve, but I don't think they should get a salary. The tithe was for the minister precisely so that s/he would not starve - because the tithe is 10% of the increase given by God. Not mammon/dollars/money. This way, it didn't matter what happened to the economy, or inflation rates. The increase was given by God directly - like with crops, cattle, trees (for wood,) medicine, etc.

Then, the people would use their trades to provide and present 10% of their increase given by God. This could be using the 10% to make a house, or a week's supply of meat pies for the family. The people were responsible for giving their tithe from God to the preacher in a presentable way (i.e. actually using/giving all of the 10%.) The preacher had no reason to make a salary because God was literally his boss, and made sure the preacher got what s/he and the family needed. It was humbling.

Today, preachers make salaries, receive tax-exempt donations, and tithes in the form of money (in addition to some Church fees and even erections being drastically discounted or free.) Preachers should be able to live at least megarly (depending on if you are single or family.) But, preaching was humbling. Having 200,000 members because you preach feel-good and/or non-offensive messages, buying a 400 sqft house and three cars, a gulfstream airplane, and a boat is not what preaching is about. I have heard the excuse, "Well, I need to reach my flock, so I need a plane/boat/etc." Nah, that is oppulance; leave that to the people. The preacher is supposed to be a humbled, holy man that does not indulge in worldly pleasures no matter how minute.

This is especially the case when many in modern church pues are struggling and suffering financially, and the preacher/minister has all of his toys and dream houses telling his flock, "God wants you to be rich" or something of the sort. Culturally, morally and spiritually. that should be unacceptable to everyone who sees it. There are modern ways of spreading your ministry across the world. Missions are a prime example - ministers don't need gulfstreams. Your flock should help you get there, and the minister can even encourage some of them to come. You don't need a gulfstream 6 of your own.

So, nope I don't think a preacher should get a salary. Plus, it weeds out people who want to be a rockstar: "Will you spread the gospel because you can gain 10,000,000 people worldwide + money + trips... or will you spread the gospel because you want to and love God and people - no matter what is on your back or in your pocket?" What the real preachers should do is ask their a member of their flock to build them a house if they want it. I know several people who have said, should they be preachers, would be perfectly fine sleeping at the church (usually even small churches have a little room for the minister to sleep.) Your reward/salary should be being honored to be charged to be a minister for God to His children. Do you think prophets deserve a salary at all (per prophecy or rolling salary)? I'm serious.
 
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Lollerskates

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Lollerskates, this is very much stereotype. Do you hang around only prosperity preachers?

No, it was an example, and you know who I am talking about (or at least have an idea.) I am familiar with all types of preachers - fear mongers, 1-verse-a-sermen, overly charasmatic, temperate, psychotic, predator, verse by verse, racist, sexist, small town, big city, Catholic, Pentacost, non-denominational, etc. All categories have their own brand of extravagance and greed - even in poor churches. I used the hyperbolic example because more people will resonate with the [insert G5 flying preachers here] that categorically fit my description (all of it.)

I haven't "hung around" any preachers in a while because of experience, context of teaching and mainly location. Oh, and sometimes stereotypes are true, though still offensive. However, I did not say all ministers - rich or poor - are flagrant. But, there should be no qualms about calling out the ones that are flagrant in their ministry. A great majority of the Church is not learning the Truth about God, His word, the history of His word, prophecy, and how to recognize and prepare for spiritual warfare. As I said before (maybe in another thread,) people have hard enough trouble with angel-human sexual interaction. Yet, Cain is not the son of Adam in his listed geneology.
 
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LegacyJB

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You do realize that the church also has desk jockeys working for it full-time, right?

The admin people draw a salary, as do any janitors, building maintenance people, and others who are considered to be officially "employed" by the church.

That has to be factored in.


As far as the church leaders go, their stipends (et al) are due to their being on the job 24 / 7, thus leaving them unable to hold a regular job.

As it is, a lot of the church authorities have left high-paying jobs in order to take the leadership position (for example, Dieter F. Uchtdorf was a vice president for Lufthansa), so if money was the issue then this would make no sense.

Elder Nelson spoke to my mission and explained how he got the call. It was right before he was going to perform surgery. He received a phone call and was asked to be in Salt Lake the next day. He gave up a lot to be an apostle.
 
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