Are Jews Grafted in?

stan1953 said:

So you don't accept what Luke says in Heb 8:13?

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I don't accept the interpretation many put on the words of the unknown author of Hebrews 8:13.

Avodat said:

None of us can agree, or debate, your interpetation because of this rule:

No anti-Torah theology. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are ‘under the law’, or re-erecting the ‘wall of partition’, or that Torah has been made null and void, or done away with.

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I'm not sure I'd agree with putting the discussion of Hebrews 8:13 under this rule. Hebrews is even more foundational than that doctrine. By that rule, it seems like any discussion whatsoever of Hebrews must be ruled out.

Avodat said:

and whether Luke wrote it or not is debatable.

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I actually have the book on Lukan authorship. I'm looking forward to reading it.

mishkan said:

I don't accept the interpretation many put on the words of the unknown author of Hebrews 8:13.

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Then I guess it's a good thing that THIS is a debate/discussion forum.

mishkan said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with putting the discussion of Hebrews 8:13 under this rule. Hebrews is even more foundational than that doctrine. By that rule, it seems like any discussion whatsoever of Hebrews must be ruled out.

I actually have the book on Lukan authorship. I'm looking forward to reading it.

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It was eye opening for me.

stan1953 said:

I'm not debating anything anti-torah and I am definitely not saying anyone IS under the law. I am saying the opposite. There is no wall, and no one is under the written law.
Of course Luke is another issue, but feel free to read this review and book;
Lukan Authorship of Hebrews - TGC Reviews

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My quote of the rule was in two parts - not just the one you mention. It is not permitted to say that the Law is done away with - or to debate it, as I see it.


Anyway, I'm taking a sabbatical from posting (see the EP thread).

stan1953 said:

We are told by Jesus in Matthew 5:17-18; “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Everything was accomplished when Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to His Father. He was the first born of the dead.
Jesus ushered in the NEW covenant. You can't have two covenants at the same time. Jer 31:31-34 shows God telling His people through the prophet Jeremiah, that He would make a NEW covenant with His people. That NEW covenant was brought by Jesus and made official when He rose from the dead. At that point the OLD covenant became obsolete and disappeared then the temple was destroyed in 70AD. Heb 8:13
Contrary to your opinion, I am not denying the light, but receiving the light of God's Word and our Messiah.

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I just went and looked out the window. Still a heaven and earth out there.

The new covenant is there because Israel broke the old covenant. The new covenant is on the whole really the same as the old one, which is given again since the ancients broke it, except we are now given through the holy spirit greater ability to keep the law (in theory). The law of the covenant is unchanged, regardless of whether it is a new covenant, and we can verify this by looking out the window.

Avodat said:

My quote of the rule was in two parts - not just the one you mention. It is not permitted to say that the Law is done away with - or to debate it, as I see it.
Anyway, I'm taking a sabbatical from posting (see the EP thread).

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Ok well I don't see that rule but I'm not trying to advocate the doing away with the Torah(OT) either.

Enjoy your sabbatical

stan1953 said:

No, obviously if all you were doing is looking for a way out of your errors. What I don't understand is why you won't accept what Luke states very clearly in Heb 8:13?

Maybe others can enlighten me?

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Where are you in this New Covenant given to Judah and Ephraim?


Are you of Judah or Ephraim?


Can you show us the contract on the New covenant and how it differs from the old?


We have Paul going out of his way to prove to all people that he continued keeping the law, and the liars who claimed Paul and the disciples taught Jews not to keep the law were proven liars.

So we have to take in this knowledge of what Paul and the disciples actually did, and what they did was to continue keeping the law and even sacrificing.

Now we can see the Temple destroyed and the sacrificial system no longer being in play.


We can see that many things in the law can no longer be followed, but this only after the destruction of the Temple.

So at what point does the word of God come to nil and void?


It certainly didn't pass away in Paul's day, and Paul proving that he kept the laws of Moses decades after Jesus died is him living by example.



If such liars brought about the deaths and persecution of the disciples by telling a lie that the disciples taught people not to keep the Torah, at what point do we become like the liars and tell people not to keep the laws of Moses?


Do you see what I mean?


If Paul put on such a big show as to prove to all that he WAS NOT teaching people to abandon the law, and such a big deal made out of the liars saying that this new religion taught people not to keep the law, than at what point do we contradict what Paul actually did, to agree with the liars?




“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

9
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.

10
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

11
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

12
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

stan1953 said:

You are trying to link two as if they all apply to the same thing. That is not proper exegesis.
The two Olive Trees/Lampstands in Rev 11:4 are Elijah and Enoch who are the two witnesses for Jesus. They die in Revelation, which makes Heb 9:27 fully true.

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Remember how a man is appointed to die at least once in the span of a world's life time, hence Enoch must have been Abel who had already suffered death in that world which was destroyed in a flood, likewise Noah and his three sons were also resurrected beings who already had paid their deadly dues in that world.

As you pointed out the two Witnesses/Olive trees are the two faithful Lampstands, they are identified as the Angel of the Congregation of Smyrna, and the Angel of the Congregation of Philidelphia, for they are the only two lamps & stands who did not receive reprimanding; in Zechariah (3 & 4) the same Seven Candlesticksi are described as the Seven Eyes of Elohym, yet it is these two eyes that are without Stigma/Reproach.

In Isaiah 41 these same Seven Angels are identified as the Seven Trees planted in the wilderness & desert, of these Seven trees only the Berowsh and Hadas are singled out (Isa.55:13), it is between these two true and faithful witnesses that the Covenant of peace will be established.

In Ezekiel 37 the stick of Yowseph that is in the hand of Ephraim is grafted on to the stick of Y'hudah and the two sticks are made one, the result is a resurrected (as the chapter entails) David, yet this David is the House/Temple which David longed to build for Elohym to dwell in, a temple co-created yet not by the hands of any man.

In the parable of Tares/noxious & wild, we are told that Y'shua will send forth His Angels at the time of Harvest, this Major Gathering is touched on in many places throughout the Tanach, it is the Remote Location that is too Far, and the journey too Long, it is the proverbial Mountain in the distance that is Called by His Name, it is further described as the Garden of Eden, saying...

"...you who follow after Righteousness, you who seek YHWH; Look unto the Rock from whence all of you were hewn, and the pit from whence each of you were excavated....For YHWH shall Comfort Zion: he will Comfort all her waste places; and he will make her Wilderness like Eden, and her Desert like the Garden of YHWH...I, even I am the one who shall Comfort you..."

This is the same Wilderness & Dessert mentioned in Isa. 41 where the Seven Angels will be planted, according to Isaiah 42 it's supposed to be a part of The New thing.

In Isaiah 27 the Great trumpet is blown, and Ephraim-Yowseph are specified as the Out casts ones who come (also mentioned in Jeremiah 7); In Isaiah 11:11 it is mentioned again concerning those who were taken into Assyrian captivity, and He shall lift up an ensign and gather both the out casts of Israel, and the dispersed of Y'hudah, Ephraim will no longer envy Y'hudah, and Y'hudah will no longer vex Ephraim.

HannibalFlavius said:

Where are you in this New Covenant given to Judah and Ephraim?

Are you of Judah or Ephraim?

Can you show us the contract on the New covenant and how it differs from the old?

We have Paul going out of his way to prove to all people that he continued keeping the law, and the liars who claimed Paul and the disciples taught Jews not to keep the law were proven liars.

So we have to take in this knowledge of what Paul and the disciples actually did, and what they did was to continue keeping the law and even sacrificing.

Now we can see the Temple destroyed and the sacrificial system no longer being in play.

We can see that many things in the law can no longer be followed, but this only after the destruction of the Temple.

So at what point does the word of God come to nil and void?

It certainly didn't pass away in Paul's day, and Paul proving that he kept the laws of Moses decades after Jesus died is him living by example.

If such liars brought about the deaths and persecution of the disciples by telling a lie that the disciples taught people not to keep the Torah, at what point do we become like the liars and tell people not to keep the laws of Moses?

Do you see what I mean?

If Paul put on such a big show as to prove to all that he WAS NOT teaching people to abandon the law, and such a big deal made out of the liars saying that this new religion taught people not to keep the law, than at what point do we contradict what Paul actually did, to agree with the liars?

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I have no doubt that there is a new covenant, but something is misunderstood when one would look at the old as if it is no longer to be followed.


If we just look at the words of Jesus alone and consider him the final authority, he says that anyone who does not keep the least of the laws and teaches others not to keep the laws will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.


That right there alone inspires me, and if I have a problem in my understanding of the law, what Jesus says is the final authority to me, and he says a great deal about keeping the law. He says a great deal about people who do not keep the law, scary things, and so the bottom line has to be,'' Whoever keeps the laws and teaches others will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.''


If the law was put in the hearts of men, has it changed?

If the law is the definition of sin, has that definition changed?


Are all the missions and promises of Jesus fulfilled?

Of course not, we know that we wait on the fulfillment of appointed visitation days, and we know what we are instructed to do for those visitation days.



Jesus was the first born of first fruits, and we wait our turn when all those in Christ become the firstfruits.

We know that the second rain upon the Earth is coming for the second coming of Christ, we pray for the rain, and wait upon the fall feasts.


Should we reject the knowledge of the coming feast days and its promises, or should we study the laws of these things in order to warn and instruct others?

If there are still promises and evolutions to take place, shouldn't we strive to know all we can know?



But the majority does reject the knowledge of Christ in these coming events, and why?



One would think that a person should seek to know Christ on a personal level, but this is impossible if that knowledge is seen in a derogatory light, from a biased position as to say,'' Those things are no more.''


What does Paul say?

Paul says to keep the Pesach in truth and in spirit, and he would have instructed many people in the symbolisms of Christ in these things from generation to generation.


I believe the disciples would have had the whole world studying Torah, and in truth, he taught the Torah to all the gentile churches and he was disappointed when that fell behind, still being babies weaning on milk.





It is one thing to say that there is a new covenant where God has given us mercy in the rigid keeping of many things, but its another thing to say that we have a new covenant and the old instructions have passed away, and then to teach people a hatred and bias against keeping the laws.



If Jesus is a Messiah who came to do away with the word of God, it makes him the anti-Messiah who comes to change the times and the seasons and to turn the children of Israel away from their demanded instructions that God demanded them.


There really are two Messiahs, one is for the law, and the other against the law.

Both were prophesied to come.

Keeping Torah and its validity is to be taken for granted, no discussion. This is a basic thing, a foundation upon which the real questions and issues are based.

HannibalFlavius said:

Where are you in this New Covenant given to Judah and Ephraim?
Are you of Judah or Ephraim? Can you show us the contract on the New covenant and how it differs from the old?

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The NEW covenant is given to all as Paul teaches. 2 Corinthians 3:6; He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Luke teaches in Heb 8:6-8; in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people
A Biblical covenant is NOT a contract, it is an undertaking that God renders based on compliance by the partakers. We don't make deals with God, He tells us what He will do, if we follow His rules. Sadly instead of believing and having faith in Him, the ancient Jews apparently needed better incentive than loving and obeying God.

HannibalFlavius said:

We have Paul going out of his way to prove to all people that he continued keeping the law, and the liars who claimed Paul and the disciples taught Jews not to keep the law were proven liars.
So we have to take in this knowledge of what Paul and the disciples actually did, and what they did was to continue keeping the law and even sacrificing.

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Actually that is NOT factual. I suggest you read Acts 22:1-21
Paul was always trying to teach that we were no longer under the written law, but under grace. He clearly explains in Romans 2, what the issues are.

HannibalFlavius said:

Now we can see the Temple destroyed and the sacrificial system no longer being in play.
We can see that many things in the law can no longer be followed, but this only after the destruction of the Temple.
So at what point does the word of God come to nil and void?
It certainly didn't pass away in Paul's day, and Paul proving that he kept the laws of Moses decades after Jesus died is him living by example.

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It was obsolete when Luke wrote Heb 8, and actually disappeared within 30 years. That would have been within 5 -10 years of Paul's day. You should read Acts 21:17-26 and how Paul tried to compromise and appease the Jewish believers and what happened to him. God does not want compromise, He wants obedience.

HannibalFlavius said:

If such liars brought about the deaths and persecution of the disciples by telling a lie that the disciples taught people not to keep the Torah, at what point do we become like the liars and tell people not to keep the laws of Moses?
Do you see what I mean?
If Paul put on such a big show as to prove to all that he WAS NOT teaching people to abandon the law, and such a big deal made out of the liars saying that this new religion taught people not to keep the law, than at what point do we contradict what Paul actually did, to agree with the liars?

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Paul wasn't teaching people to not keep the Torah, he was teaching people how they should live in their heart and spirit as Romans 2:17-29. He then goes on to teach about the law of faith, which is the NEW covenant. You assume that all the things theses people were saying about Paul were lies, but even James confirmed they were true but didn't want to challenge the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem and coherced Paul to go along with his plan. Paul himself said that ALL scripture is God breathed, so obviously that meant thee Torah of His day.

Hoshiyya said:

Keeping Torah and its validity is to be taken for granted, no discussion. This is a basic thing, a foundation upon which the real questions and issues are based.

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That's agreed, but imagine the reward of changing a person's biased against the Torah if just a little. If an opportunity arises, I will try it out, although you are correct, it shouldn't be something we have to discuss, its a given.

Hoshiyya said:

Keeping Torah and its validity is to be taken for granted, no discussion. This is a basic thing, a foundation upon which the real questions and issues are based.

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Let's try not to confuse the validity of the Torah with the applicability of the old covenant Mosaic and Levitical written laws.

stan1953 said:

Let's try not to confuse the validity of the Torah with the applicability of the old covenant Mosaic and Levitical written laws.

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How would you propose to differentiate them? Vayikra/Leviticus is the very heart of the Torah... literally!

There is no Torah apart from the Sinai covenant, and no Sinai covenant apart from the Torah. What you are proposing strikes Messianics as a decidedly oxymoronic statement.

stan1953 said:

The NEW covenant is given to all as Paul teaches. 2 Corinthians 3:6; He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Luke teaches in Heb 8:6-8; in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people
A Biblical covenant is NOT a contract, it is an undertaking that God renders based on compliance by the partakers. We don't make deals with God, He tells us what He will do, if we follow His rules. Sadly instead of believing and having faith in Him, the ancient Jews apparently needed better incentive than loving and obeying God.



Actually that is NOT factual. I suggest you read Acts 22:1-21
Paul was always trying to teach that we were no longer under the written law, but under grace. He clearly explains in Romans 2, what the issues are.



It was obsolete when Luke wrote Heb 8, and actually disappeared within 30 years. That would have been within 5 -10 years of Paul's day. You should read Acts 21:17-26 and how Paul tried to compromise and appease the Jewish believers and what happened to him. God does not want compromise, He wants obedience.



Paul wasn't teaching people to not keep the Torah, he was teaching people how they should live in their heart and spirit as Romans 2:17-29. He then goes on to teach about the law of faith, which is the NEW covenant. You assume that all the things theses people were saying about Paul were lies, but even James confirmed they were true but didn't want to challenge the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem and coherced Paul to go along with his plan. Paul himself said that ALL scripture is God breathed, so obviously that meant thee Torah of His day.

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You must have a list.

Has all sin just become acceptable to you?


What is sin?


Is it ok to murder, steal, lie, and cheat?

Is it ok for you to sleep with your mother now?



We must have a plumbline, an idea of what is moral and what is immoral.


If the old is gone, then it must be ok for two men to marry each other right?


If the law was just generally written on the hearts of people, then what is written?

Is it ok for anyone to create a list of moral things and say,'' its the new covenant, there is no more law.''


Society is built upon the law, and we must have a guide, what is your guide?


To symbolize something is one thing, but realistically speaking, what is right, and what is wrong?

Is it now in the hands of every individual to which each person says,'' its ok to fornicate or live a homosexual lifestyle because it feels right?''

You say that we have a new covenant, so please furnish me a list of what sin is and why.

What gets me is the sheer quantity of scripture we must throw out when when doing away with the law.

Here is just a few.


We should consider that God demanded his people to keep the law forever, so was the word of God wrong, and should Jews stop keeping the law?


If so, I would say none of it matters at that point because all is false, if any.


Can we trust a god who demands one thing, and then promises to punish the person who followed the demand?


Ezekiel talks about a day when two men will become one, those same two men the covenant is made for,'' Ephraim and Judah'' nobody else has a covenant.

But when these two men{Israel and Judah} become one, then God MAKES them follow all his precepts, judgments, ordinances for his name sake.

Again with Ephraim and Judah, which one do gentiles fit into? If not one of them, I see no place at all.

The truth was stated over and over,'' Ephraim and Judah.''

19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh, 20That they may walk in My statutes, and keep Mine ordinances, and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the LORD God.



Exodus 15:26
And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.


Exodus 16:28
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?


Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Leviticus 22:31
Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 26:3
If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;


Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.



Deuteronomy 4:40
Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.


Deuteronomy 5:29
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!


Deuteronomy 6
That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 6:17
Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.


Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 7:11
Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.


Deuteronomy 8:6
Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

Deuteronomy 8:11
Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:


Deuteronomy 10:13
To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?


Deuteronomy 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deuteronomy 11:8
Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments which I command you this day, that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land, whither ye go to possess it;

Deuteronomy 11
For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three:

Deuteronomy 26:17
Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:

And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;

And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day.

The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.


Deuteronomy 28:45
Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


Deuteronomy 30:16
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Joshua 22:5
But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.


1 Kings 2:3
And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:


1 Kings 3:14
And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.



1 Kings 6:12
Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:


1 Kings 8:58
That he may incline our hearts unto him, to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and his statutes, and his judgments, which he commanded our fathers.


1 Kings 8:61
Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.



1 Kings 9:6
But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

1 Kings 11:38
And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.


2 Kings 17:13
Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.



2 Kings 23:3
And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

1 Chronicles 28:8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever

1 Chronicles 29:19
And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book.


Nehemiah 1:5
And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:


Psalm 78:7
That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:


Psalm 89:31
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;


Psalm 103:18
To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.


Psalm 119:60
I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.


Psalm 119:115
Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.

Proverbs 3:1
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:



Proverbs 4:4
He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.



Proverbs 7:1
My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.


Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Daniel 9:4
And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;



Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

mishkan said:

How would you propose to differentiate them? Vayikra/Leviticus is the very heart of the Torah... literally!

There is no Torah apart from the Sinai covenant, and no Sinai covenant apart from the Torah. What you are proposing strikes Messianics as a decidedly oxymoronic statement.

Click to expand...

oh but you see there's a "ceremonial Torah" and a "moral Torah" and it is delineated . . . somewhere. we should consult the pope about this.

Incidentally, what's noteworthy to me is that even though they (say Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, JW's) are antinomian relative to the Biblical nomos, the Torah, they really just ("legalists" as they are) replace it with their own human nomos (which at times can be as, or more, complex than the divine one).

For example, in the middle ages the Catholic law taught you had to be buried in consecrated ground otherwise you would end up in either hell or a funny place called "limbo". Limbo, guys, limbo. This is the second-biggest religion on earth, guys.