What if Preachers Never Got Paid?

Norah63 said:

Hirelings hire out for mammon.
What you recieve freely, give freely.
If you cut off the money it will clear out a lot of pull-pits.

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Bless your vision.

Christ would never feel that his church would die without money, IMO. It's the difference between spiritual (teachings) and mammon. Through mammon a church has evolved, though.

When Christ sent his disciples he said take nothing with them (except clothes and stave). He knew the Father would take care of them.

Rather than sending people out, a costly bus brings them in. Because they all have to listen to the "one man" (more than likely paid).

If Christ is with two or more gathered in his name, there is no doubt then if 1000 or more are gathered, right? A lot depends on the "one man", IMO.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

LegacyJB said:

I'll answer after you provide yours to the questions I asked.

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I can't as I am not a preacher. My elders have commented that I should go into ministry, but I am still sussing that out for myself.

But even if I were a minister and never received a paycheck I would preach and pastor a flock. For as Paul said "Woe is me if I do not preach the Gospel."

drstevej said:

1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

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Which is why many scholars believe the pastorals were written by someone else after Paul died. (dated 100-150 AD)

The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter. -
Norman Perrin, An Introduction to the New Testament

Which is why many scholars believe the pastorals were written by someone else after Paul died. (dated 100-150 AD)

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Norman Perrin taught at Candler School of Theology (Emory). I attended this school for a semester. It was a liberal cesspool. There was little of the Bible when the Candler profs got through redacting it. They had less respect for the text than Joseph Smith.

Phantasman said:

Which is why many scholars believe the pastorals were written by someone else after Paul died. (dated 100-150 AD)

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Logical fallacy, appeal to anonymous popularity. Many people/scholars, Everybody knows, It's a known fact, etc.

The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter. -
Norman Perrin, An Introduction to the New Testament __________________

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I'd bet that Norman Perrin is a staunch anti-Catholic. The unsupported opinion of one scholar does not a consensus make.

Phantasman said:

Bless your vision.

Christ would never feel that his church would die without money, IMO. It's the difference between spiritual (teachings) and mammon. Through mammon a church has evolved, though.

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You are correct about Christ but the rest is nonsense!

When Christ sent his disciples he said take nothing with them (except clothes and stave). He knew the Father would take care of them.

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Christ did say not to take anything but their clothes and staves, but He did not say not to accept anything from the people.

Rather than sending people out, a costly bus brings them in. Because they all have to listen to the "one man" (more than likely paid).

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Thank you for your unsolicited opinion. Have you ever heard of "small groups?" As for paid ministry seems to me that the priests/priestly class received compensation in the form of tithes. As Dr. Steve has posted above,


Note Paul is quoting from the O.T., Deut 25:4, and Jesus, Luke 10:7. But lets not let scripture interfere with one's assumptions/presuppositions.

If Christ is with two or more gathered in his name, there is no doubt then if 1000 or more are gathered, right? A lot depends on the "one man", IMO.

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In all the churches that I have been associated with over the last few decades, 3 states, 2 countries, none relied/depended on "the one man."

drstevej said:

Please tell us. I know what they call someone who is paid for sex. But the term love when referring to preaching the word as a labor of love obviously is referring to agape love not eros love.

Were you trying to be cute and call paid ministers prostitutes? I would hope you would deny that implication.

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See what you want.

When someone asks what your profession is, what do you say?

(Profession-1.a paid occupation, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.)

One doesn't "train" another in truth, IMO.

drstevej said:

How Much Does a Mormon Apostle Make?

Had money been my motivation, I would have made far more as an engineer (Ga Tech, BSIE) than in ministry.

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You do realize that the church also has desk jockeys working for it full-time, right?

The admin people draw a salary, as do any janitors, building maintenance people, and others who are considered to be officially "employed" by the church.

That has to be factored in.


As far as the church leaders go, their stipends (et al) are due to their being on the job 24 / 7, thus leaving them unable to hold a regular job.

As it is, a lot of the church authorities have left high-paying jobs in order to take the leadership position (for example, Dieter F. Uchtdorf was a vice president for Lufthansa), so if money was the issue then this would make no sense.

When someone asks what your profession is, what do you say?

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Retired. But my ordination says "minister of the gospel" and I have 8 years graduate training.

One doesn't "train" another in truth, IMO.

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You exclude the Great Commission too?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

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Der Alter said:

Thank you for your unsolicited opinion.

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This is the second time you said this to me.

Do I need to remain silent until you solicit me? Should I raise my hand?

BelCantoBaptist said:

-Why does the LDS church own 2-8% of land in Florida?

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The bulk of this land is farm and ranch land that the church uses for its welfare system. It takes a lot of land to maintain a cattle ranch, and even with modern farming techniques you still need a good chunk of land to get a decent-sized yield going.

For obvious reasons, it's rare for critics of the church to go into details about why the church owns so much land.

-Why do the Mormon leaders get paid a salary?

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The top leadership are required to be on the job 24/7, leaving them unable to actually hold a day job.

As it is, what they make in this position is far less than what many of them were making before taking the spot. In that sense, they took a massive pay cut to take the job.

-Why is charitable giving by the church over 14 years, less than what the ELCA raised in 1 year for hunger in the US?

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Remember what you said about the church's books not being open?

Couple this with the fact that the church doesn't normally brag about its efforts, and the end result is that external observers - most of them critics of the church - tend to under-estimate how much the church gets done compared to its size.

Phantasman said:

This is the second time you said this to me.

Do I need to remain silent until you solicit me? Should I raise my hand?

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No! Provide evidence.

drstevej said:

Retired. But my ordination says "minister of the gospel" and I have 8 years graduate training.



You exclude the Great Commission too?

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So, Christ has a University. Did you have to pay for this "knowledge" to "minister"?

(But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.-Acts)

So, Christ has a University.

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I did not say this.

Did you have to pay for this "knowledge" to "minister"?

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This was my choice. And my grandmother gave me the money. I never asked her, she just slipped a check under my napkin for the entire amount.

because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

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I do not think the gift of God can be purchased, so this is not germane to our discussion. It does fit the working to make it to heaven crown.

Phantasman said:

So, Christ has a University. Did you have to pay for this "knowledge" to "minister"?

(But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.-Acts)

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How is the quote about Simon the sorcerer attempting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit relevant to this thread?

From Bel's website:

Somehow, being a member of a “professional clergy” is supposed to make all the difference in the world. After all, some Mormon leaders point to a paid clergy as one of many proofs that modern Christianity is apostate. While FAIR admits that other leaders, such as the General Authorities, do receive compensation, it is pointed out that “no tithing funds provide for General Authorities’ living stipends; such funds are drawn from business income earned by Church investments.” It would be interesting to understand the rationale as to why receiving income from a church investment is somehow considered acceptable but money from tithes is anathema, especially since no church “investments” were being used to pay church leaders in either biblical times or the 19th century when D&C 42 and 75 were written.

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The reason why no tithing money is used is because it ensures that 100% of the money that is donated goes to the operation and upkeep of the church.

Using the information from the Mission President’s manual, we applied what we felt were reasonable numbers on each item that a mission president’s family could use as reimbursement from the LDS Church.

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In other words, this is at best a ballpark number and so could easily be way off from what is actually present.

For example, under the "utilities" it says that they took an "annual average". How was this average compiled?

They also presume a maid and gardener. Bwah? On what basis do they make that assumption?

They also presume things like dance & piano lessons, also raising questions as to what the basis is for that.

$200 a month for "modest" gifts? What?!

As an MBA, I'm just looking at their "estimation" and praying to God that these people aren't involved in the world of finance.

My mind is blown at how terrible their "attempt" is and how far removed from reality it likely well is.

Phantasman said:

So, Christ has a University. Did you have to pay for this "knowledge" to "minister"?

(But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.-Acts)

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Way to completely take that passage out of context

Der Alter said:

No! Provide evidence.

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You and your evidence. I refuse to be your search puppet any longer.

You refute evidence and documentation except what you choose to see and believe.