how do we TRULY find God?

A New Dawn said:

Paul stated in Corinthians that men are saved by the foolishness of preaching. One must hear the word in order to be saved. Hence, evangelizing is necessary.

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So those who are predestined are only predestined if they're preached to?

LegacyJB said:

So those who are predestined are only predestined if they're preached to?

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God is in control of our lives. I'm sure that it's no big deal for Him to get us to a place where we can hear the gospel preached. It's just part of the big picture.

Is that another thing you discount from the Bible?

God ordains the means as well as the ends.
He is not biting His nails trying to figure out how to make it happen.

God is not the God of Bruce Almighty:

Bruce: How do you make so many people love you without affecting Free Will?
God: Heh, welcome to my world, son.

drstevej said:

God ordains the means as well as the ends.
He is not biting His nails trying to figure out how to make it happen.

God is not the God of Bruce Almighty:

Bruce: How do you make so many people love you without affecting Free Will?
God: Heh, welcome to my world, son.

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And yet, he never forces anything upon anyone.

A New Dawn said:

God is in control of our lives. I'm sure that it's no big deal for Him to get us to a place where we can hear the gospel preached. It's just part of the big picture.

Is that another thing you discount from the Bible?

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I don't discount anything the scriptures say. I just don't follow false interpretations of scripture. God can direct but he won't force.

Romans 8:30 (pre JST mangling)

ους δε προωρισεν τουτους και εκαλεσεν και ους εκαλεσεν τουτους και εδικαιωσεν ους δε εδικαιωσεν τουτους και εδοξασεν

No slippage from predestination (προωρισε&#957 to glorification (εδοξασε&#957.

LegacyJB said:

I don't discount anything the scriptures say. I just don't follow false interpretations of scripture. God can direct but he won't force.

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And you believe that because JS changed key scripture verses to remove that concept from the Bible to achieve the illusion that the Bible said what he wanted it to say.

Acts 13:48 KJV And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 13:48 JST And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.

See how he did that? Quite clever, no? Switch around the order of a couple of words and, voila!, instant new theology!

Acts 13:48 JST

This alone would make me RUN from Mormonism. How do you sing Praise to {this} Man?

Jesus and Paul taught predestination and eternal life.

LegacyJB said:

Wrong kid. That isn't why I believe that. I occasionally refer to the JST but I way more frequently use the KJV. The KJV does not teach God forces anything upon anyone. He would no longer be God. You're a Calvinist so you're not exactly on par with much of what people call orthodoxy either. Calvinism is very different from other denominations. Predestination and once saved always saved originate from your church. Until your church was created, those were not doctrines to anyone. You and others claim orthodoxy but the fact is many of your doctrines don't even come close to what Christ taught.

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LOL. I think it is cute that you repeat oft-told untruths that you were taught during your years as an LDS. But I see you are using the age-old defense of when you don't have a defense, insult the other person instead.

In case you hadn't noticed, God did force things on people in the OT. Remember the plagues in Egypt, or the flood? But I digress. Changing someone's heart and letting them make the decision to follow is not the same as "forcing".

And, also, if you read the ECFs, you will see that there are several who espoused predestination. Augustine was one. St. Thomas Aquinas was one. And gosh, Christ taught predestination. Read John 6. It's all throughout that chapter. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out". Indicating that the Father has chosen who will be saved, and that Christ will save all of them. That's predestination. From Christ.

So why don't you stop attacking falsehoods and start addressing the scripture verses. That is what you are here for, isn't it?

You have also been asked to stop calling people "kid" in an attempt at condescension. I'd suggest you start listening so you don't get reported.

Imagican said:

Yes. So now the question to be answered is WHY? If, from YOUR perspective, some are predestined to salvation while others are predestined to being lost, why would one predestined to salvation NEED to hear the Word IF they were already predestined to salvation?

And if your premise is correct concerning predestination, what 'good' would it do to 'preach' or 'spread the Word' to those that are predestined to be LOST?

Blessings,

MEC

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Because that is the way God chose for it to happen. Who am I to question God?

Imagican said:

I haven't felt the need to 'correct YOU' at all. But I certainly have every right to challenge your words. Especially if your words are contrary to what is offered in the Bible. Unless, of course, your religion is somehow based OUTSIDE of the Bible............. For it is a FACT that there ARE MANY 'religions' that place little faith in the Bible compared to what beliefs they have created on 'their own'.

Blessings,

MEC

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So what did I say that you felt was contrary to what the Bible said. Are you arguing for a works-based salvation?

Imagican said:

What a NEAT 'religion'. One that teaches it's followers to believe that they are SO SPECIAL while everyone else is LOST.

But I confused as to how such a religion could allow it's followers to READ the Bible and still expect them to follow such teachings.

Blessings,

MEC

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Don't expect me to get into discussions on strawmen you have built. You can go it alone.

If you don't believe in the teachings of the Doctrines of Grace, go to Soteriology and discuss it there.

A New Dawn said:

In case you hadn't noticed, God did force things on people in the OT. Remember the plagues in Egypt, or the flood?

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I wonder why God didn't do anything like this after his son came (and was murdered). I wonder why God didn't lift a finger physically when the disciples met their murderous fates. Why Paul didn't use these "plagues" when he was imprisoned to show the "power of God".

Maybe God changed, huh?

Phantasman said:

I wonder why God didn't do anything like this after his son came (and was murdered). I wonder why God didn't lift a finger physically when the disciples met their murderous fates. Why Paul didn't use these "plagues" when he was imprisoned to show the "power of God".

Maybe God changed, huh?

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God says He doesn't change, though. I will believe what He says rather than what you say.

I seem to recall that there were miracles in the NT. I recall a forced encounter with Saul, changing his life completely. Why does God need to meet your requirements in order for you to believe what He says in the Bible? I'm sorry you don't have faith in those promises, but I do believe what God says. I know that my testimony supports that belief, so you can doubt it all you want. I will choose to believe.

Phantasman said:

I wonder why God didn't do anything like this after his son came (and was murdered). I wonder why God didn't lift a finger physically when the disciples met their murderous fates. Why Paul didn't use these "plagues" when he was imprisoned to show the "power of God".

Maybe God changed, huh?

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Why don't you dig into your Bible, the NHL, and tell us what the true truth is about this? I'm sure there must be something in there. Why did God allow 1000s of His chosen people to be slaves for 400 years +/-, ca. 1200 BC? God is not a genie in a bottle who gives people their every wish when they rub the bottle. Got any more attacks on the Bible?

A New Dawn said:

God says He doesn't change, though. I will believe what He says rather than what you say.

I seem to recall that there were miracles in the NT. I recall a forced encounter with Saul, changing his life completely. Why does God need to meet your requirements in order for you to believe what He says in the Bible? I'm sorry you don't have faith in those promises, but I do believe what God says. I know that my testimony supports that belief, so you can doubt it all you want. I will choose to believe.

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Judging me gets you nowhere. I ask questions, and get no answers. That's fine though. Like der alter, I can show him documentation and the best one can come up with is "it's heretical" or "not scriptural".

If one is judged by following God, what are they going to say if Christ says "which God?". The one in the Bible? The one the catholics found? Or how about Christs Father, who is our Father as well. The one who loves all of us. Not the one who killed many (OT).

Follow who you wish. But never say the truth wasn't there to see. It all depends on what you see.

Der Alter said:

Why don't you dig into your Bible, the NHL, and tell us what the true truth is about this? I'm sure there must be something in there. Why did God allow 1000s of His chosen people to be slaves for 400 years +/-, ca. 1200 BC? God is not a genie in a bottle who gives people their every wish when they rub the bottle. Got any more attacks on the Bible?

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John 17

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


Is the God of the OT the "true God"? Or did Jesus glorify the true God?



After the fall of Rome, man was destitute in the Dark Ages. This coincided quite closely to the Bible being written in Latin and enslaved by the catholics. Lots of wars, famines, and man regressed.



There are reasons the true God does what he does. I don't judge them, but ask for the knowledge and wisdom that I follow his will. Maybe they didn't.