Daniel 9

ebedmelech

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The correct understanding is that the prophecy given in the Bible is not discernable in two ways. Its not mistakable.

If you propose a contrary interpretation to another, one of you is wrong, if not both.

The rest of what you said is a given..
That is not at all what it says...but if you think so....go right ahead.

Here's a tool for you to get what the passage actually says...if you're interested:

BLB - 2Pe 1: Peter's Second Epistle - 2 Peter 1 (Blue Letter Bible: NASB - New American Standard Bible)

Look it up in any translation you like...but the point it makes is that those who wrote scripture were moved by the Holy Spirit to do so...they didn't write what they thought or believed, but what the Holy Spirit moved them to write.

This is from Commentary Critical On The whole Bible on the passage:
Verse 20
“Forasmuch as ye know this” (1 Peter 1:18).

first — the foremost consideration in studying the word of prophecy. Laying it down as a first principle never to be lost sight of.

is — Greek, not the simple verb, to be, but to begin to be, “proves to be,” “becometh.” No prophecy is found to be the result of “private (the mere individual writer‘s uninspired) interpretation” (solution), and so origination. The Greek noun {(epilusis}, does not mean in itself origination; but that which the sacred writer could not always fully interpret, though being the speaker or writer (as 1 Peter 1:10-12 implies), was plainly not of his own, but of God‘s disclosure, origination, and inspiration, as Peter proceeds to add, “But holy men … spake (and afterwards wrote) … moved by the Holy Ghost”: a reason why ye should “give” all “heed” to it. The parallelism to 2 Peter 1:16 shows that “private interpretation,” contrasted with “moved by the Holy Ghost,” here answers to “fables devised by (human) wisdom,” contrasted with “we were eye-witnesses of His majesty,” as attested by the “voice from God.” The words of the prophetical (and so of all) Scripture writers were not mere words of the individuals, and therefore to be interpreted by them, but of “the Holy Ghost” by whom they were “moved.” “Private” is explained, 2 Peter 1:21, “by the will of man” (namely, the individual writer). In a secondary sense the text teaches also, as the word is the Holy Spirit‘s, it cannot be interpreted by its readers (any more than by its writers) by their mere private human powers, but by the teaching of the Holy Ghost (John 16:14). “He who )is the author of Scripture is its supreme interpreter” [Gerhard]. Alford translates, “springs not out of human interpretation,” that is, is not a prognostication made by a man knowing what he means when he utters it, but,” etc. (John 11:49-52). Rightly: except that the verb is rather, doth become, or prove to be. It not being of private interpretation, you must “give heed” to it, looking for the Spirit‘s illumination “in your hearts” (compare Note, see on 2 Peter 1:19).

Verse 21
came not in old time — rather, “was never at any time borne” (to us).

by the will of man — alone. Jeremiah 23:26, “prophets of the deceit of their own heart.” Compare 2 Peter 3:5, “willingly.”

holy — One oldest manuscript has, “men FROM God”: the emissaries from God. “Holy,” if read, will mean because they had the Holy Spirit.

moved — Greek, “borne” (along) as by a mighty wind: Acts 2:2, “rushing (the same Greek) wind”: rapt out of themselves: still not in fanatical excitement (1 Corinthians 14:32). The Hebrew “{(nabi},” “prophet,” meant an announcer or interpreter of God: he, as God‘s spokesman, interpreted not his own “private” will or thought, but God‘s “Man of the Spirit” (Hosea 9:7, Margin). “Thou testifiedst by Thy Spirit in Thy prophets.” “Seer,” on the other hand, refers to the mode of receiving the communications from God, rather than to the utterance of them to others. “Spake” implies that, both in its original oral announcement, and now even when in writing, it has been always, and is, the living voice of God speaking to us through His inspired servants. Greek, “borne (along)” forms a beautiful antithesis to “was borne.” They were passive, rather than active instruments. The Old Testament prophets primarily, but including also all the inspired penmen, whether of the New or Old Testament (2 Peter 3:2).
 
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Shocker

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That is not at all what it says...but if you think so....go right ahead.

Here's a tool for you to get what the passage actually says...if you're interested:

BLB - 2Pe 1: Peter's Second Epistle - 2 Peter 1 (Blue Letter Bible: NASB - New American Standard Bible)

Look it up in any translation you like...but the point it makes is that those who wrote scripture were moved by the Holy Spirit to do so...they didn't write what they thought or believed, but what the Holy Spirit moved them to write.

This is from Commentary Critical On The whole Bible on the passage:
Verse 20
“Forasmuch as ye know this” (1 Peter 1:18).

first — the foremost consideration in studying the word of prophecy. Laying it down as a first principle never to be lost sight of.

is — Greek, not the simple verb, to be, but to begin to be, “proves to be,” “becometh.” No prophecy is found to be the result of “private (the mere individual writer‘s uninspired) interpretation” (solution), and so origination. The Greek noun {(epilusis}, does not mean in itself origination; but that which the sacred writer could not always fully interpret, though being the speaker or writer (as 1 Peter 1:10-12 implies), was plainly not of his own, but of God‘s disclosure, origination, and inspiration, as Peter proceeds to add, “But holy men … spake (and afterwards wrote) … moved by the Holy Ghost”: a reason why ye should “give” all “heed” to it. The parallelism to 2 Peter 1:16 shows that “private interpretation,” contrasted with “moved by the Holy Ghost,” here answers to “fables devised by (human) wisdom,” contrasted with “we were eye-witnesses of His majesty,” as attested by the “voice from God.” The words of the prophetical (and so of all) Scripture writers were not mere words of the individuals, and therefore to be interpreted by them, but of “the Holy Ghost” by whom they were “moved.” “Private” is explained, 2 Peter 1:21, “by the will of man” (namely, the individual writer). In a secondary sense the text teaches also, as the word is the Holy Spirit‘s, it cannot be interpreted by its readers (any more than by its writers) by their mere private human powers, but by the teaching of the Holy Ghost (John 16:14). “He who )is the author of Scripture is its supreme interpreter” [Gerhard]. Alford translates, “springs not out of human interpretation,” that is, is not a prognostication made by a man knowing what he means when he utters it, but,” etc. (John 11:49-52). Rightly: except that the verb is rather, doth become, or prove to be. It not being of private interpretation, you must “give heed” to it, looking for the Spirit‘s illumination “in your hearts” (compare Note, see on 2 Peter 1:19).

Verse 21
came not in old time — rather, “was never at any time borne” (to us).

by the will of man — alone. Jeremiah 23:26, “prophets of the deceit of their own heart.” Compare 2 Peter 3:5, “willingly.”

holy — One oldest manuscript has, “men FROM God”: the emissaries from God. “Holy,” if read, will mean because they had the Holy Spirit.

moved — Greek, “borne” (along) as by a mighty wind: Acts 2:2, “rushing (the same Greek) wind”: rapt out of themselves: still not in fanatical excitement (1 Corinthians 14:32). The Hebrew “{(nabi},” “prophet,” meant an announcer or interpreter of God: he, as God‘s spokesman, interpreted not his own “private” will or thought, but God‘s “Man of the Spirit” (Hosea 9:7, Margin). “Thou testifiedst by Thy Spirit in Thy prophets.” “Seer,” on the other hand, refers to the mode of receiving the communications from God, rather than to the utterance of them to others. “Spake” implies that, both in its original oral announcement, and now even when in writing, it has been always, and is, the living voice of God speaking to us through His inspired servants. Greek, “borne (along)” forms a beautiful antithesis to “was borne.” They were passive, rather than active instruments. The Old Testament prophets primarily, but including also all the inspired penmen, whether of the New or Old Testament (2 Peter 3:2).

I wasn't disagreeing with the validity of your statement, just your definition..

I can read it just fine.

Here is the NASB, says the same thing..

2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

What the prophecy means is objective, it cant be disputed.

Just as you and I wouldn't dispute Christ fulfilling the prophecy of his coming.

But if we dispute it, one of us is clearly wrong, or both..

Simple, baby level stuff mang..
 
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ebedmelech

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I wasn't disagreeing with the validity of your statement, just your definition..

I can read it just fine.

Here is the NASB, says the same thing..

2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,

What the prophecy means is objective, it cant be disputed.

Just as you and I wouldn't dispute Christ fulfilling the prophecy of his coming.

But if we dispute it, one of us is clearly wrong, or both..

Simple, baby level stuff mang..
The problem is you're not understanding what is meant by "one's own private interpretation".

It is saying that the writers of scripture did not write 'THEIR OWN interpretation".

Now...if you want to see it your way, go right ahead...but you're in fact, not reading the passage "just fine".

I know...I use to view that passage the same way you do, because that's what I was taught. When I actually began to really study, looking up the Greek or Hebrew (as the case may be), I realized I understood it wrong.

It's on you though. This isn't about eschatology here! This passage is making a statement that is telling us the apostles and prophets didn't write what they wanted to write, BUT what God moved them to write. That's all it's saying.

Do yourself a favor and look at any commentary...it will say what I just said basically.
 
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Shocker

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This passage is making a statement that is telling us the apostles and prophets didn't write what they wanted to write, BUT what God moved them to write. That's all it's saying.

No, this passage tells us the apostles and prophets didn't write what they wanted.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


Any Christian knows that God spoke the written word.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
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ebedmelech

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No, this passage tells us the apostles and prophets didn't write what they wanted.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


Any Christian knows that God spoke the written word.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Any Christian also would know what Peter said too. Which is why the passage starts with Peter saying "So we have the prophetic word made more sure"

He then goes on to tell us why that is. :thumbsup:

Hebrews 1 makes a "cut to the chase statement"...while Peter goes into more detail HOW it happened!

19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.


Commentaries:

Matthew Henry:
The Holy Ghost inspired holy men to speak and write. He so assisted and directed them in delivering what they had received from him, that they clearly expressed what they made known. So that the Scriptures are to be accounted the words of the Holy Ghost, and all the plainness and simplicity, all the power and all the propriety of the words and expressions, come from God. Mix faith with what you find in the Scriptures, and esteem and reverence the Bible as a book written by holy men, taught by the Holy Ghost.

John Calvin's Commentary:
Verse 21
But holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. They did not of themselves, or according to their own will, foolishly deliver their own inventions. The meaning is, that the beginning of right knowledge is to give that credit to the holy prophets which is due to God. He calls them the holy men of God, because they faithfully executed the office committed to them, having sustained the person of God in their ministrations. He says that they were — not that they were bereaved of mind, (as the Gentiles imagined their prophets to have been,) but because they dared not to announce anything of their own, and obediently followed the Spirit as their guide, who ruled in their mouth as in his own sanctuary. Understand by prophecy of Scripture that which is contained in the holy Scriptures.

Links:
Barnes Commentary:
2[bless and do not curse]Peter 1:1 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Clarke's Commentary:
2[bless and do not curse]Peter 1:1 - Adam Clarke Commentary - Commentaries - StudyLight.org
 
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tranquil

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Rather than curse the darkness, I'll try to light a candle. Back to the OP

In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. 3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8 To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10 and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. 12 He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us,[a] by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have made a name for yourself, as at this day, we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 “O Lord, according to all your righteous acts, let your anger and your wrath turn away from your city Jerusalem, your holy hill, because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people have become a byword among all who are around us. 17 Now therefore, O our God, listen to the prayer of your servant and to his pleas for mercy, and for your own sake, O Lord,[b] make your face to shine upon your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline your ear and hear. Open your eyes and see our desolations, and the city that is called by your name. For we do not present our pleas before you because of our righteousness, but because of your great mercy. 19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive. O Lord, pay attention and act. Delay not, for your own sake, O my God, because your city and your people are called by your name.”
Gabriel Brings an Answer

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, 21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.
The Seventy Weeks

24 “Seventy weeks[c] are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[d] 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again[e] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[f] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[g] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
"Weeks" is H7620, Shabuwa


  1. seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
    1. period of seven days, a week
      1. Feast of Weeks
    2. heptad, seven (of years)

I recently came across this: Walls of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Walls of Jerusalem

The Walls of Jerusalem (Arabic: أسوار القدس‎; Hebrew: חומות ירושלים‎) surround the old city of Jerusalem (approx. 1 km²). The walls were built between 1535 and 1538, when Jerusalem was part of the Ottoman Empire, by the order of Suleiman I.
1535 AD + 490 "Feast of Weeks"/ aka Shavuot (aka Pentecost) means either the Shavuot (Pentecost) of 2024 is the 490th Shavuot (if the call to restore Jerusalem went out before Shavuot of 1535) OR... If the call went out to restore Jerusalem after Shavuot in 1535, the 490th Shavuot would be Shavuot 2025.

The neat thing here is that if the 490th Shavuot is the Shavuot of 2024, the "69th" (483rd/ (69 x 7)] Shavuot (when messiah arrives) is Shavuot/ Pentecost of 2017 (5-31-17). ie 7 years earlier than 2024.

This particular Shavuot is the 70th Shavuot after the creation of Israel! (The 69th Shavuot being 6-11-16 and the 69th week of the 69th Shavuot being 6-4-16.)
 
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Shocker

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@ Shocker, don't feed the trolls. They waste your time and the readers' time.

It's a shame that the mods on this board don't do a damn thing to clean up the preterists on this board, but I guess it is what it is.

Let them fall on their own sword, its what they do best..
 
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Douggg

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Ok Shocker. Let's take these one at a time because Daniel is laying out what happens in the 70 weeks of years.

This is the portion of Daniel 9:24 I'll address:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression,...

Let's first understand that this prophecy is about the Jews. Gabriel says to Daniel that the 70 weeks are dcreed for HIS PEOPLE. Daniel's people are the Jews and this prophecy concerns them.

When it speaks to finish "THE TRANSGRESSION"...the transgression is an act! This act was truly committed when the Lord was crucified!

The Lord confirms as much on the cross when He said "IT IS FINISHED"! What Jesus was referring to is "THE TRANSGRESSION" of Daniel 9:24!

That is what this portion is speaking of...it is the transgression of crucifying and rejecting the Lord Jesus. :thumbsup:

The transgression is them not following God's way, first in letting the land lay rest, every 7 years.. Also for embracing false gods, like tammuz and other gods of the heathen, leading up to the Babylonian captivity. And afterwards because that generation of Pharisees lead the people away from Jesus, and they followed, the 2000 year diaspora. Which in it says in Ezekiel 39:
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
.
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

eb, that generation of Pharisees that lead the people of Jerusalem not to believe in Jesus, caused him to say behold your house is left desolate, withering like fig tree he pronounce judgment on as he and the disciples were entering Jerusalem.

And that Jerusalem is the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree generation of Matthew 24 is that Jerusalem is again in the hands of the Jews in 1967. To know that Jesus's return is near, even at the door.
 
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Shocker

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The transgression is them not following God's way, first in letting the land lay rest, every 7 years.. Also for embracing false gods, like tammuz and other gods of the heathen, leading up to the Babylonian captivity. And afterwards because that generation of Pharisees lead the people away from Jesus, and they followed, the 2000 year diaspora. Which in it says in Ezekiel 39:


eb, that generation of Pharisees that lead the people of Jerusalem not to believe in Jesus, caused him to say now your house is left desolate, withering like fig tree he pronounce judgment on as he and the disciples were entering Jerusalem.

And that Jerusalem is the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree generation of Matthew 24 is that Jerusalem was again in the hands of the Jews in 1967.

PREACH IT:cool:
 
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ebedmelech

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The transgression is them not following God's way, first in letting the land lay rest, every 7 years.. Also for embracing false gods, like tammuz and other gods of the heathen, leading up to the Babylonian captivity. And afterwards because that generation of Pharisees lead the people away from Jesus, and they followed, the 2000 year diaspora. Which in it says in Ezekiel 39:
No Doug, to say that is simply to ignore the greatest transgression of Israel is the crucifixion of their Messiah. No transgression can be greater. Ezekiel 39 is making that point and also prophecying the end. Pay attention to the fact that you never read of Gog and Magog anymore until Revelation 20:8! Who they are has revealed to John in his vision:
Revelation 20:8
and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

This is what I mean by ignoring the apostles interpreting the OT prophets! John is interpreting Ezekiel 39. Again, pay attention to Revelation 19:17, 18...and then read Ezekiel 39:17-20. As John writes this vision, he is revealing prophecy and only if readers know the OT, can they make the connection.
eb, that generation of Pharisees that lead the people of Jerusalem not to believe in Jesus, caused him to say behold your house is left desolate, withering like fig tree he pronounce judgment on as he and the disciples were entering Jerusalem.
You've missed what the parable of the fig tree is really about. This passage is about understanding the signs that Jesus gave them prior to saying this. What Jesus is saying is just as they could tell summer was near by the fig tree, when they began to see the things Jesus told them...they would know it was about to happen. This doesn't relate to prophecies, like Habakkuk 3, Jesus clearly says at 24:33:
33 so, you too, when you see, all these things recognize that He is near, right at the door.
Nothing else is said there, and yet you're taking of with the fig tree being Israel, when it is not, in this case.
And that Jerusalem is the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree generation of Matthew 24 is that Jerusalem is again in the hands of the Jews in 1967. To know that Jesus's return is near, even at the door.
I disagree again. You've built this from a wrong premise (as I've said above), that the fig tree is Israel/Jerusalem. Yet nothing says anything close to that, or even alludes to that. I was taught this as a young Christian too, and I even believed that, until I search the scriptures and really read the passage.

Jesus is only saying to the disciples when they began to see the things HE SAID in Matthew 24:4-31 they would know what was occurring! All this idea you have about 1967 has nothing to do with this parable Doug, but I know you will continue to believe that.

I really hope in eternity that Jesus will sit with us about these things and show us all where we misunderstood the prophetic...because we ALL have misunderstood some things, but I truly believe particularly "dispensational eschatology" has mis-interpreted much.
 
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Douggg

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No Doug, to say that is simply to ignore the greatest transgression of Israel is the crucifixion of their Messiah.

eb, no, the biggest transgression is not accepting the risen Christ. That's the transgression. The temple was destroyed, as well as the city, and the Jews sent into 2000 years of exile. There has never been a finish to that transgression and ramifications, and to anoint the Most Holy, and won't be until Jesus returns at the end of the 70th week.


No transgression can be greater. Ezekiel 39 is making that point and also prophecying the end. Pay attention to the fact that you never read of Gog and Magog anymore until Revelation 20:8! Who they are has revealed to John in his vision:
Revelation 20:8
and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Revelation 20 is not the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog. The battle of Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20 takes place 1000 years before Satan's last rebellion in Revelation 20.

This is what I mean by ignoring the apostles interpreting the OT prophets! John is interpreting Ezekiel 39. Again, pay attention to Revelation 19:17, 18...and then read Ezekiel 39:17-20. As John writes this vision, he is revealing prophecy and only if readers know the OT, can they make the connection.
No, John is not interpreting Ezekiel 39. He is writing down what he was told, heard, and saw.
You've missed what the parable of the fig tree is really about. This passage is about understanding the signs that Jesus gave them prior to saying this. What Jesus is saying is just as they could tell summer was near by the fig tree, when they began to see the things Jesus told them...they would know it was about to happen. This doesn't relate to prophecies, like Habakkuk 3, Jesus clearly says at 24:33:
33 so, you too, when you see, all these things recognize that He is near, right at the door.
Nothing else is said there, and yet you're taking of with the fig tree being Israel, when it is not, in this case.
No, I did not say the fig tree is Israel. I may have on previous occasions. The fig tree parable applies to Jerusalem.

I disagree again. You've built this from a wrong premise (as I've said above), that the fig tree is Israel/Jerusalem. Yet nothing says anything close to that, or even alludes to that. I was taught this as a young Christian too, and I even believed that, until I search the scriptures and really read the passage.
I am going to agree with you that in times past many noteable bible commentators said Israel's 1948 rebirth is the fig tree, such as, Jack Van Impe. But that is not the case. The parable of the fig tree applies to Jerusalem. Jerusalem came back into the hands of the Jews in 1967. So that's the generation that won't pass away.

eb, please check out my One, Two, Three! thread.

Jesus is only saying to the disciples when they began to see the things HE SAID in Matthew 24:4-31 they would know what was occurring! All this idea you have about 1967 has nothing to do with this parable Doug, but I know you will continue to believe that.
If it were solely a matter of seeing those begin to happen, there is no reason to learn a parable of the fig tree.

I really hope in eternity that Jesus will sit with us about these things and show us all where we misunderstood the prophetic...because we ALL have misunderstood some things, but I truly believe particularly "dispensational eschatology" has mis-interpreted much.
okay.
 
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ebedmelech

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eb, no, the biggest transgression is not accepting the risen Christ. That's the transgression. The temple was destroyed, as well as the city, and the Jews sent into 2000 years of exile. There has never been a finish to that transgression and ramifications, and to anoint the Most Holy, and won't be until Jesus returns at the end of the 70th week.
I agree...but that's not Daniel 9:24 is speaking of, That all comes with Christ!

Revelation 20 is not the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog. The battle of Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20 takes place 1000 years before Satan's last rebellion in Revelation 20.
If you think so. We'll see.
No, John is not interpreting Ezekiel 39. He is writing down what he was told, heard, and saw.
Which is prophetic vision that he writes.
No, I did not say the fig tree is Israel. I may have on previous occasions. The fig tree parable applies to Jerusalem.
Prove that...where the scripture that supports it's that parable?
I am going to agree with you that in times past many noteable bible commentators said Israel's 1948 rebirth is the fig tree, such as, Jack Van Impe. But that is not the case. The parable of the fig tree applies to Jerusalem. Jerusalem came back into the hands of the Jews in 1967. So that's the generation that won't pass away.
Where's that support? In every case when Jesus said "this generation" in Matthew it was those he was speaking too...why does it change at Matthew 24???
eb, please check out my One, Two, Three! thread.

If it were solely a matter of seeing those begin to happen, there is no reason to learn a parable of the fig tree.
He told THEM, (the disciples) to learn the parable...then He gave it. SO again... I ask what basis in that parable says Jerusalem is the fig tree?
:thumbsup:
 
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Douggg

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Prove that...where the scripture that supports it's that parable?

Where's that support? In every case when Jesus said "this generation" in Matthew it was those he was speaking too...why does it change at Matthew 24???

He told THEM, (the disciples) to learn the parable...then He gave it. SO again... I ask what basis in that parable says Jerusalem is the fig tree?

:thumbsup:

What generation has to be understood within the context of the passage it is used.

Do you not grasp that Jesus cursing the fruitless fig tree before entering Jerusalem, and then upon leaving Jerusalem it is withered up, with Matthew 23:33-39, that the fig tree represents Jerusalem?


33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
 
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ebedmelech

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What generation has to be understood within the context of the passage it is used.

Jesus said "THIS generation"! He didn't say "that generation" or "the generation that sees these things"....HE SAID "THIS GENERATION"...and he said it in:
Matthew 11:16, 12:41, 42, and 45, 23:36, and 24:34. Yet only in 24:34 oes it suddenly not mean those Jesus was speaking to. Can you make your case?
Do you not grasp that Jesus cursing the fruitless fig tree before entering Jerusalem, and then upon leaving Jerusalem it is withered up, with Matthew 23:33-39, that the fig tree represents Jerusalem?
No Doug. You're linking things that ought not be linked.

*I agree Jesus cursing the fig tree speaks of Israel, not just Jerusalem. Where this would be of significance is Habakkuk 3:16-19. Not Matthew 24:34.

*When Jesus is speaking to the disciples the fig tree cursing has occurred already.

The parable of the fig tree is told right there to the disciples. Jesus links NOTHING to that. He says "learn the parable of the fig tree", and then He tells the parable. This fig tree is blossoming as a sign summer is near. Jesus simply says just as you can tell summer is near, when you see these signs you'll know what's about to occur" and it did.

This is why your argument is baseless...the fig tree Jesus cursed had no fruit, the fig tree in the parable is blossoming...and Jesus says " so, you too, when you see all these things,".
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
What's your point Doug? Not one bit of that says anything about a fig tree...so why are you making it one?
 
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Douggg

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Jesus said "THIS generation"! He didn't say "that generation" or "the generation that sees these things"....HE SAID "THIS GENERATION"...and he said it in:
Matthew 11:16, 12:41, 42, and 45, 23:36, and 24:34. Yet only in 24:34 oes it suddenly not mean those Jesus was speaking to. Can you make your case?
The Matthew 24 generation is the end times generation. Conversely, the generation of them who crucified him, the kingdom of God was taken from them. And be given to the nation born in a single Day in Isaiah 66:7-8, Israel 1948.

The parable of the fig tree is about Jerusalem, lead by the scribes and pharisees, because the fig tree that Jesus cursed before entering Jerusalem, and then being withered when he left Jerusalem, is about them not accepting him and bearing no fruit.

Matthew21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


The end times generation of Jerusalem will embrace Jesus, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, without passing away. And the kingdom of God will become the reigning kingdom of all kingdoms here on earth during Jesus millennium reign.


No Doug. Your linking things that ought not be linked.

*I agree Jesus cursing the fig tree speaks of Israel, not just Jerusalem. Where this would of significance is Habakkuk 3:16-19. Not Matthew 24:34.

*When Jesus is speaking to the disciples the fig tree cursing has occurred already.

The parable of the fig tree is told right there to the disciples. Jesus links NOTHING to that. He says "learn the parable of the fig tree", and then He tells the parable. This fig tree is blossoming as a sign summer is near. Jesus simply says just as you can tell summer is near, when you see these signs you'll know what's about to occur" and it did.

This is why your argument is baseless...the fig tree Jesus cursed had no fruit, the fig tree in the parable is blossoming...and Jesus says " so, you too, when you see all these things,". What's your point Doug? Not one bit of that says anything about a fig tree...so why are you making it one?
That generation of Jerusalem produced no fruit because they rejected Jesus.

Matthew21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
 
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ebedmelech

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The Matthew 24 generation is the end times generation. Conversely, the generation of them who crucified him, the kingdom of God was taken from them. And be given to the nation born in a single Day in Isaiah 66:7-8, Israel 1948.

The parable of the fig tree is about Jerusalem, lead by the scribes and pharisees, because the fig tree that Jesus cursed before entering Jerusalem, and then being withered when he left Jerusalem, is about them not accepting him and bearing no fruit.

Matthew21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


The end times generation of Jerusalem will embrace Jesus, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, without passing away. And the kingdom of God will become the reigning kingdom of all kingdoms here on earth during Jesus millennium reign.


That generation of Jerusalem produced no fruit because they rejected Jesus.

Matthew21:
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Doug...this is classic forcing one's ideas to fit scripture.
 
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