What do the dead know?

yogosans14 said:

Actually Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not teach annihilationism, rather that the dead in Sheol are no longer able to be aware of this life "under the sun."

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." -- Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.

see also Ecclesiastes 1:3, 9, 14; 2:3, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22; 3:1, 16; 4:1, 3, 7, 15; 5:13, 18; 6:1, 12; 8:9, 15, 17; 9:3, 6, 9, 11, 13; 10:5. The whole theme of the book.

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Why bring up annihilationism?

Go re-read abysmul's original post, he wasn't teaching annihilationism.

Lion King said:

Why bring up annihilationism?

Go re-read abysmul's original post, he wasn't teaching annihilationism.

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Soul sleep, whatever.

yogosans14 said:

Soul sleep, whatever.

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What is your definition of soul sleep?

yogosans14 said:

Yeah, Saint Paul must have lied when he said to be ABSENT from the BODY is to be present with the Lord.

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That is mythology - Paul never said that "To be absent from the body IS To be present with the Lord".

People like to say it because they know that their belief system "needs it" - but it is not in the actual Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Lion King said:

What is your definition of soul sleep?

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Whatever sleeps - still exists it is not annihilated.

in Christ,

Bob

abysmul said:

First passage I thought of was Ecc 9

5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

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Yea that came up pretty early in that list I posted as well..

BobRyan said:

Some say

The living know that they shall die - the dead know nothing.

There is neither praise nor worship to God among those who are dead.


But why listen to them? Why not just stick with what the Bible says??

Sola Scriptura is best.



2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and is profitable for doctrine"


Ps 146:
2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,


Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
5For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.



Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!



Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;


Ps 6:5 for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?


[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 38[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 18"For [/FONT]Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.


Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

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BobRyan said:

That is mythology - Paul never said that "To be absent from the body IS To be present with the Lord".

People like to say it because they know that their belief system "needs it" - but it is not in the actual Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

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Do you want to know what MYTHOLOGY really is?

The following quote is from the SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH MANUAL...

“Baptismal vow—Candidates for baptism or those being received into fellowship by profession of faith shall affirm their acceptance of the doctrinal beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the presence of the church or other properly appointed body. The minister or elder should address the following questions to the candidate(s)…

…Do you accept and believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy? …”

SOURCE: SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH MANUAL, pgs. 30,31; ISBN 0-8280-1076-5; Revised 1995, 15th Edition; Review and Herald Publishing Association, Hagerstown, Maryland 21740

yogosans14 said:

I dont believe this type of Heresy is allowed in these forums....

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I answered the question.....I didn't ask it.

The heresy is actually this belief that the sinner is immortal. The Bible teaches that immortality and righteousness go together just as mortality and unrighteousness goes together. If one claims immortality then one must claim righteousness. Hence the heresy of perfectionism.

yogosans14 said:

Yeah, Saint Paul must have lied when he said to be ABSENT from the BODY is to be present with the Lord.

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No, Paul didn't lie, you did....

Let's read the context:

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

According to Paul we already have a "building...eternal in the heavens."

Read Eph 2:6 and Col 1:13

Both of these verses tell us that we already have a sinless, glorified humanity in heaven now! This humanity is in Christ, "the last Adam"!

Have you ever heard of Christ being called "the last Adam"? See 1 COR 15:45

We receive this life at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor 15:50-53.

Lion King said:

Are we still discussing the passage in Luke 15?

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And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Yes we are. It is not just angels rejoicing.

Setyoufree said:

No, Paul didn't lie, you did....

Let's read the context:

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

According to Paul we already have a "building...eternal in the heavens."

Read Eph 2:6 and Col 1:13

Both of these verses tell us that we already have a sinless, glorified humanity in heaven now! This humanity is in Christ, "the last Adam"!

Have you ever heard of Christ being called "the last Adam"? See 1 COR 15:45

We receive this life at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor 15:50-53.

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First of all, before taking scripture out of context. Lets look at all scripture together on this subject.

First thing we need to establish is that man has a soul/spirit, and it is distinct from his body. We have a dual nature, physical (the body) and immaterial (spirit/soul).

Job 32:8: “But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.” The breath is not the same as mans spirit but that which teaches him, being the Holy Spirit from God.

Isaiah 26:9 says this: “ At night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently.”

Zech.12:1: “Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:” Here we see that the physical man is different than the Spirit in him.

1 Cor. 6:20: “For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.” Paul distinguishes the body from the Spirit, both existing simultaneously, yet both are united to make man.

1 Cor. 2:11: “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” Mans spirit is not the same as Gods Spirit. Our spirit has certain capabilities to understand the things of man but fall short in understanding God unless he reveals them to us. The knowledge is not in our flesh but our spirit, certainly this cannot mean our breath for it knows nothing. There is a comparison here between mans spirit knowing the things of man and Gods spirit knowing the things of God.

Job.14:22: “But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.” Job makes the distinction saying the flesh is upon him and the soul is within him.

Now lets address the argument that some claim the soul or spirit is just another word for breath since this is what the Hebrew word Ruach means. That when someone dies their breath leaves them. Lets substitute the word breath where Spirit is and see if it makes any sense scripturally?

Job 34:14-15: “If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself Spirit (His breath?) and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Here both breath and spirit are distinguished otherwise one would be gathering to himself spirit and his spirit or breath and his breath.

Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the Breath, the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” The conversion is to ones soul, their inner being so it can rule over their body.

2 Cor. 7:1: “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and Breath (spirit),” Does this mean we take breath mints?

Gal 6:8: “For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the breath ( Spirit ) will of the breath (Spirit) reap everlasting life.”

Acts 23:8: “For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection-- and no angel or breath (spirit); but the Pharisees confess both.” Is there no breath or were they speaking about a spirit that is intelligent (a type of angel). What we will see is that Spirits do exist outside the vehicle of the body as does mans. V.9”Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.” Certainly they are speaking about a corporeal entity that communicates not just breath.

What of Jesus, did he use this definition? Matt. 12:43 “When an unclean Breath, (spirit) “goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.” Certainly he did not mean bad breath. Just as man can have the Holy Spirit live within him alongside his human Spirit so he can have a unclean spirit live in him.

Luke 4:36: “What a word this is! For with authority and power He commands the unclean Breaths, (spirit) and they come out.”

Acts 5:16: “Bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean Breath,” (spirit), and they were all healed.” I guess some peoples souls need breath freshener! Jesus cast out spirit entities not peoples breath, and if he did they would certainly die on the spot.

Luke 12:19: “And I will say to my Breath, “ Breath,”(spirit), you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” Can ones breath eat and drink.

James 5:20 “ let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a Breath, (soul) from death and cover a multitude of sins.” Can breath be saved or a person.

2 Pet. 2:8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous Breath, (spirit) from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--

Ezek. 18:4: “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Can breathe die? Obviously this means something than just air in the lungs.

1 Sam 30:6 “ because the soul of all the people was grieved.” Num. 21:4 “ and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way.” Prov. 21:10 “The soul of the wicked desires evil” Can breath do any of these things, or does it communicate emotion, intelligence and personality? Gen. 34:8 But Hamor spoke with them, saying, “The soul of my son Shechem longs for your daughter. Please give her to him as a wife.” Is Shechem's breath desiring a wife?

Pnuema means wind in Greek it also means breath and spirit. Ruach in Hebrew means wind, it too also can mean breath and spirit. Since Hebrew and Greek have only one word for wind breath and spirit one needs to discern what is meant by certain passages, the context defines the meaning. Jesus breathed on his disciples in John 20 saying receive the Spirit, the rushing wind in Acts is certainly to be interpreted as the Spirit. When Jesus breathed on the apostles the Holy Spirit in Jn.20:22 he wasn't giving them Breath for life but the Holy Spirit in some capacity.

If Spirit is breath and God is Spirit is He breath to? We can see how ludicrous this position of interpretation is. Certainly when Jesus spoke to the Father into your hands I commend my Spirit he was not speaking of his breath.

I think the point is clear, Spirit does not mean breath although at times it is used metaphorically.

Mt. 10:28: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Also Lk.12:4-5) After he has killed the body but not the soul? How is this possible if they are the same? If the soul and the body refer to the same thing then wouldn’t the soul die when the body does? God distinguishes the dual natures in man. Man's body is clearly not the same as his soul. Jesus himself taught in Mt. 10:28 there is a difference between the body of man and his soul by using the word both. When a person dies physically his soul lives. Jesus is distinguishing the material and non material and says although the body can be killed the soul cannot. “But are NOT ABLE to kill the soul.” Neither is the soul the body or the body the soul, they are different components of the same person. So if the body is killed the soul is not dead, it continues in its life. So then what does he mean by “fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body.” The Greek word here is Apollumi it does not mean to bring to utter destruction or ceasing to exist. This same Greek word is used of those living in Mt.10:6 (lost), Mt.15:24 the lost); Lk.19:10 (that which is lost). So this means to be in a lost condition, in context those in Hell that are in a eternally lost state, separated from God for all eternity. This also refutes any teaching of annihilationism, that we don’t exist after we die. Jesus says we do.

Lion King said:

The dead know absolutely nothing.

This is why God commanded the children of Israel to stop consulting or praying to the dead on behalf the living (Isaiah 8:19)

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Lion King said:

19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
​

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Kylissa said:

I don't see anything about praying to the dead here? This seems to be saying that God is commanding people to consult Him instead of asking mediums to consult spirits of the dead for them.

I do believe it is wrong for people to ask mediums or gypsies or whoever to contact the dead for them, because of this Scripture.

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The text says specifically not to 'consult the dead on behalf of the living". So going directly to the dead to consult them instead of having a medium do it for you - is placing yourself in the role of the medium - not the medium's "customer". And of course in the OT times the medium was under God's death sentence.

[FONT=&quot]Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Question:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Our Catholic praying to the saint[/FONT][FONT=&quot]s and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?” [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Ans:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must![/FONT]

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yogosans14 said:

Mt. 10:28: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Also Lk.12:4-5) After he has killed the body but not the soul? How is this possible if they are the same? If the soul and the body refer to the same thing then wouldn’t the soul die when the body does? God distinguishes the dual natures in man. Man's body is clearly not the same as his soul. Jesus himself taught in Mt. 10:28 there is a difference between the body of man and his soul by using the word both. When a person dies physically his soul lives. Jesus is distinguishing the material and non material and says although the body can be killed the soul cannot. “But are NOT ABLE to kill the soul.” Neither is the soul the body or the body the soul, they are different components of the same person. So if the body is killed the soul is not dead, it continues in its life.

So then what does he mean by “fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body.” The Greek word here is Apollumi ...

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It is contrasting the first death to the second death.

Clearly in the first death - the soul survives in some form according to Matt 10:28. Perhaps sleep as Christ says in John 11.

That same greek word is applied to Sodom and Gomorrah in other places in the Bible.

BobRyan said:

It is contrasting the first death to the second death.

Clearly in the first death - the soul survives in some form according to Matt 10:28. Perhaps sleep as Christ says in John 11.

That same greek word is applied to Sodom and Gomorrah in other places in the Bible.

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Your point is?