Are Jews Grafted in?

yedida said:

No. Jews are not grafted in. Hashem promised that there would always be a remnant that would believe and I guess these, today, would be the Jews that have believed in Yeshua. It is the bleieving gentile that is grafted-in to this cultivated Olive Tree.

I agree with Lulav, that the "grafted-in" symbol is marketed almost exclusively to gentiles. And it's sad, it does tend to separate. (It's such a lovely symbol, I love it; but I don't call it 'grafted-in symbol' but rather the Jerusalem Council symbol.)

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Yahuah is the root, Yahshua is the trunk, and any believers are the branches. Certain Jews became the broken off branches through disbelief.

CherubRam said:

Yahuah is the root, Yahshua is the trunk, and any believers are the branches. Certain Jews became the broken off branches through disbelief.

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Actually the patriarchs are the root. What springs from the root is the natural branches which are broken off but can be grafted BACK IN. The grafted back ins and the grafted ins share the nourishment from the root.

The stump or trunk of the tree of life is Jesse, from which a shoot or branch will rise (Isaiah 11). The branches are his chosen people, the leaves are their offspring. The seed or fruit is Torah - that which is the essence of G_d given growth, the DNA of all creation, from which the generations grow.

The sap that makes the whole to grow, from seed to full grown tree, is G_d.

CherubRam said:

Yahuah is the root, Yahshua is the trunk, and any believers are the branches. Certain Jews became the broken off branches through disbelief.

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Interesting logic. We broke off from ourselves and all we need do to be put back together is to become Catholics or Protestants or whatever. Humpty-Dumpty theology?

danny ski said:

Interesting logic. We broke off from ourselves and all we need do to be put back together is to become Catholics or Protestants or whatever. Humpty-Dumpty theology?

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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put humpty dumpty back together again.

Lulav said:

Meanwhile there is one thing I can go off of, the reference that this grafted in symbol is being called by.

Romans 11:17

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches.

If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief,

but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

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It is true, we are all dry dead branches without Him. So to be grafted into that living giving root, and no longer broken off because of unbelief. Then yes, every one has to be attached to Him to live and without Him, whether Jew or Gentile, will wither and dry without Him. Structure may be correct, but life is in the blood.

danny ski said:

Interesting logic. We broke off from ourselves and all we need do to be put back together is to become Catholics or Protestants or whatever. Humpty-Dumpty theology?

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Is Torah the framework, structure, and foundation for faith? Is Yeshua the life giving blood of the faith?
I have no disagreement with Catholic or Protestant humpty-dumpty theology as they do not have enough of the Torah framework structure to stand up to the winds that blow.

Grafting is most commonly done to get the hardy roots of one variety with the fecundity of another variety. The variety used for the root stock is most resistant to fungus and other pests but has a smaller fruit or lower oil yield. The whole reason for grafting is to produce more fruit with higher oil content. The resulting tree will then possess the best characteristics of both varieties.

Potential Problems With Grafting​

1. The process of grafting requires some skill and may prove difficult for those with little or no experience in propagation.
2. The scion and rootstock must fit together well to avoid union failure, and the scions and rootstock must be compatibility maintained after grafting is done.
3. Growers choosing to graft two plants should be knowledgeable enough to identify compatible plants and know how to avoid potential problems that might lead to graft failure.
4. Typically more than one scion must be grafted onto the root stock.
5. Selecting vigorous, healthy scions to be grafted can prove time-consuming.
6. Once the graft is completed, monitoring its progress and health can also take considerable time and labor.
7. The wrapping must be removed, new growth produced by the root stock (pruned), and graft compound must be applied to keep the scion moist until the union has healed.

If all the cultured branches were removed the tree would suffer​

Lulav said:

I don't understand how anyone can believe that the Jews were 'broken off' which would mean they are no longer Jews basically. Nor can I understand the limitations given on the tree, meaning that the Jews were broken off, (pruned from the tree) so that Gentiles could be added in. This was never the case pre-Yeshua.

If G-d (who could only be the husbandman) pruned them off, meaning they no longer belong to him or in him, then that invalidates many a prophecy regarding His loyalty to Israel don't you think?

Also if Jews were removed from the tree so Gentiles could be grafted onto it, that sounds more like they are replacing the broken off branches.

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Not really - you don't graft branches on where another has broken off, it would need a fresh place to make the grafting-in work.

It wasn't done 'so that' Gentiles can be grafted in - they could be grafted in, in any case, even onto a tree with all its natural branches.

It doesn't say that G_d broke them off - it is natural process that branches become broken off because they are dead and so, with no sap to nourish them, they become brittle and just fall off.


Like most analogies, if you push this one too far it doesn't work

Messianic Jewboy said:

Actually the patriarchs are the root. What springs from the root is the natural branches which are broken off but can be grafted BACK IN. The grafted back ins and the grafted ins share the nourishment from the root.

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What you say is biblically correct. But lets give Yahuah credit for it originally.

danny ski said:

Interesting logic. We broke off from ourselves and all we need do to be put back together is to become Catholics or Protestants or whatever. Humpty-Dumpty theology?

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There would not be Christians today that have gone astray if the people had followed Yahuah's instructions.

visionary said:

Is Torah the framework, structure, and foundation for faith? Is Yeshua the life giving blood of the faith?
I have no disagreement with Catholic or Protestant humpty-dumpty theology as they do not have enough of the Torah framework structure to stand up to the winds that blow.

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Given that Yeshua IS the Word (which includes Torah - the first scriptures to be penned) then the two are really one (John 1). Therefore, yes, faith needs the whole of Scripture to be a valid faith. It is this that makes RT so much of a nonsense; without the whole of Scripture we are not strong branches at all, more like little runners popping up out of the ground, trying to become another tree (to keep the analogy of the tree of life).

Lulav said:

I don't understand how anyone can believe that the Jews were 'broken off' which would mean they are no longer Jews basically. Nor can I understand the limitations given on the tree, meaning that the Jews were broken off, (pruned from the tree) so that Gentiles could be added in. This was never the case pre-Yeshua.

If G-d (who could only be the husbandman) pruned them off, meaning they no longer belong to him or in him, then that invalidates many a prophecy regarding His loyalty to Israel don't you think?

Also if Jews were removed from the tree so Gentiles could be grafted onto it, that sounds more like they are replacing the broken off branches.

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Jeremiah
11:14 “Do not pray for this people or offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress.



15
“What is my beloved doing in my temple
as she, with many others, works out her evil schemes?
Can consecrated meat avert your punishment?
When you engage in your wickedness,
then you rejoice.”



16
The Lord called you a thriving olive tree
with fruit beautiful in form.
But with the roar of a mighty storm
he will set it on fire,
and its branches will be broken.

17 The Lord Almighty, who planted you, has decreed disaster for you, because the people of both Israel and Judah have done evil and aroused my anger by burning incense to Baal.


18 Because the Lord revealed their plot to me, I knew it, for at that time he showed me what they were doing. 19 I had been like a gentle lamb led to the slaughter; I did not realize that they had plotted against me, saying,


“Let us destroy the tree and its fruit;
let us cut him off from the land of the living,
that his name be remembered no more.” (Yshu) In Hebrew the abbreviation is (יש"&#1493 y-sh"u. yimakh shemo

Lulav said:

As you highlighted this:

You can see I never said such a thing. My statement comes from this:






That's not what it says here:




he wasn't speaking of a natural process, not according to this:


I agree, that is why the whole thing about being grafted in makes no sense and if you try to follow this logic, well, I'll just leave it at that.

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So post 28 is an impostor? OK! anything you say!

Lulav said:

I don't understand how anyone can believe that the Jews were 'broken off' which would mean they are no longer Jews basically. Nor can I understand the limitations given on the tree, meaning that the Jews were broken off, (pruned from the tree) so that Gentiles could be added in. This was never the case pre-Yeshua.

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There are Jews who are circumcised in the flesh and Jews who are circumcised in the flesh and heart. The physical Jews are broken off but can be grafted back in.

Lulav said:

If G-d (who could only be the husbandman) pruned them off, meaning they no longer belong to him or in him, then that invalidates many a prophecy regarding His loyalty to Israel don't you think?

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Who says they no longer belong to him?

Lulav said:

Also if Jews were removed from the tree so Gentiles could be grafted onto it, that sounds more like they are replacing the broken off branches.

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Gentiles are grafted in AMONG not replacing.

Lulav said:

As you highlighted this:

You can see I never said such a thing. My statement comes from this:

I was commenting on your comment built into that quote since you didn't bother with the convention of using the 'quote' button, but just added your own view.


That's not what it says here:

That's what conceited Gentiles would say - they do, today, with RT!


he wasn't speaking of a natural process, not according to this:

That simply says that G_d did not prevent them from turning from him, he allowed them to break away in their un-belief.

I agree, that is why the whole thing about being grafted in makes no sense and if you try to follow this logic, well, I'll just leave it at that.

I do not agree - it is scripture, we have no choice but to follow it - and it makes perfectly good sense if read properly, as G-d intended.

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Lulav said:

I don't understand how anyone can believe that the Jews were 'broken off' which would mean they are no longer Jews basically. Nor can I understand the limitations given on the tree, meaning that the Jews were broken off, (pruned from the tree) so that Gentiles could be added in. This was never the case pre-Yeshua.

If G-d (who could only be the husbandman) pruned them off, meaning they no longer belong to him or in him, then that invalidates many a prophecy regarding His loyalty to Israel don't you think?

Also if Jews were removed from the tree so Gentiles could be grafted onto it, that sounds more like they are replacing the broken off branches.

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We are essentially talking about the same type of tree, one is cultivated the other a wild olive tree. Like Avodat says the natural branches are broken off through natural processes, the wild branches are grafted in contrary to the law of nature. Of course Pharisee Shaul makes it a point to mention, it is more likely the natural branches will be reconnected to the tree, sincethe cultivated tree has a farmer. Why would a farmer seek after a wild branch to connect to his cultivated olive tree? Does the farmer own the wild tree to take its branches?

Messianic Jewboy said:

Gentiles are grafted in AMONG not replacing.

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Excellent point which is likewise expounded in a similar analogy: "No one puts a piece of new cloth unto an old garment; for that which is put in to fill it up takes away from the garment, and the rent is made worse." So what then needs to be done for the new cloth to fill a gap in an old garment? (for the old garment is like a treasure)? The new piece of cloth must first be washed, (Jewish purification rites, [according to the Scripture]) so that the new piece of cloth does not shrink or change when it is graffed into the old garment.