Holiness Pentecostals: Why Does Everyone Hate Them?

Andrea411 said:

So exactly what is a Holiness church… I would think all churches were holiness?? If you get what I mean. I had previously thought that holiness churches were Oneness Pentecostals. I was wrong. I get the outward appearance needs to match the inward but so much of that is subjective.

I think of to whom it is pure….. it is pure. Or children, going swimming…. I think there is modesty even in a swim suit at the beach…. but from what I'm seeing here; most people don't think holiness churches would allow swimsuits at all. Personally, I don't like 2-pc suits on girls even when they are modest. I really think they need to be modest but still be swim suits. Again, to whom it is pure it is pure…. boys can wear tank tops and trunks. I think that is modest. 100 years ago it would be outrageous.

I also see women as being more modest in slacks than in dresses, do you?

I am glad they allow women to be pastors… seems the evangelicals cripple His church trying to make everyone else submit. Men never learning to submit, actually puts them at a disadvantage spiritually…just saying,.

God bless, andrea

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I recently posted a video here about a pastor who experienced this as a kid. He said the girls got to swim in a nice, clean pool, while the boys swam in a cottonmouth-infested swamp while practically fully dressed. The adults also kept a large vinyl partition between the groups too. As if any of that was gonna shut down their glands.

I was born in the Pentecostal Holiness church. I have no issue that the world may hate my stand. As long as the Holy Spirit remains on the inside I am OK.

stormdancer0 said:

What I mean is that we cannot just proclaim belief in Christ and be done with it. We have to not just believe, but follow Christ. Even the demons believe in Christ. They just don't follow Him.

By Holiness, I mean that we are following Christ, living as He would have us live. We have to have God in our hearts. Mental assent is not enough. Our hearts have to be involved.

IOW, if your life and attitude don't change over time, it is likely that your state of salvation didn't change. God loves us just like we are, but also loves us too much to leave us like that. If He is in you, He changes you.

Holiness is cooperation with God in that change.

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Andrea411 said:

I believe in holiness, I don't have many friends who wouldn't. The question would be how do we attain holiness, does it have anything to do with the length of your hair or if you wear the clothes that the dominate cultures considers appropriately modest. I wear slacks, I don't wear men's pants anymore than Jesus wore a woman's dress.... I don't think we can obtain holiness by our clothing or our denomination. For that matter the whole theology thing is kinda ridiculous when you realize there was no NT for hundreds of years. Most couldn't read for a thousand years.
I think the Lord knows who if walking in faith and who is not.... its not a denomination or a theological statement but a matter of the heart.

God bless, andrea

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hey my sisters in the lord your both talking the same thing .. awesome!..its the work of sanctification.. if we dont allow it by out obedience to the holy Spirit ..we wont be made "Holy" by the HOLY SPIRIT/
HOLY -to be set apart .. to be separated from the world and special unto GOD
to not do what the world does
not think as the world thinks
not act as the world acts
not react as the world reacts
not run after the world in its desires

to be holy ..is to be separated from the group ..cleaned and put aside for a different purpose ...
its cool really .. we are the lord Expensive items .. not the common ones .. we are not in the cupboard under the sink .. we are in his special buffet cabinet .. separated unto the purpose he had for us before the foundation of the world ..
if we let him clean us up , fix us up shine us up and place us there ..if we let him .. make us HOLY

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Purge187 said:

I recently posted a video here about a pastor who experienced this as a kid. He said the girls got to swim in a nice, clean pool, while the boys swam in a cottonmouth-infested swamp while practically fully dressed. The adults also kept a large vinyl partition between the groups too. As if any of that was gonna shut down their glands.

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Thanks for the video.....I can really relate....so much more I could say, but it would take too long.

I'd like to tell you what happened to my aunt who is a new Oneness Pentecostal.

She had been working at a local large chain department store. She was older (almost 55 yo) and although she was older, she was fine within her job. When she started following the 'guidelines' for holiness she stopped wearing makeup, doing anything with her hair and wearing only skirts to her ankle. Maybe if she had more fashion sense it wouldn't have been such a 180 degree change, but sadly it was.

Her husband cannot work and is disabled, so they were totally reliant on her income and also the weak health package for both of them. She has been bullied for more than 5 years, them trying to get her to quit. She is absolutely miserable, and I've noticed she's lost that spark, her personality. She' seems beaten.

Her church sisters have no problem with sheparding the new ones and keeping them up to the holiness standards of the church.

My point is psychologically you put your self into a situation that many had not really signed up for. Many times it is used to control and having others judge others within the church is not correct. Shaming someone is not lovingly bringing them back into the fold.

The other thing is holiness makes walking the fine line between works/grace and salvation a hard thing for them to separate. They do believe they must be holy, but there holiness is coming from them. It is not the Holy Spirit putting that on their heart, that was a decision that they made with their head.

When we do it ourself we are not using our muscles of faith, trust and leaning on Him.
I don't hate them at all, but they have issues.

I don't hate Pentecostals,I just highly dislike the way they come across to me at times...Worship our way or don't worship at all...If you don't believe like we do,you are not a true Christian..We are better Christians than the whole lot of you..ad nauseum.
It is the "Holier than thou" pride that sticks in my craw.

FuegoPentecostes said:

Another personal experience you use to judge all of "them". My pastor always says, Jesus SAVES us, the Holy Spirit SANCTIFIES us. Only the Holy Spirit can do the work of sanctification in someones life and is the only one that, through looking for His presence in your life, will continue to daily take sinful things out of our lives.
We are saved by grace, as well as sanctified by grace. All glory to God at all times and for everything! I'm sorry your aunt had to go through that, but once again, why lump all holiness churches into that self-righteous light? It's not true with all of them is all I'm trying to say v.v Sure some holiness pentecostal churches and people have major issues, but so do other pentecostal denomination churches, so do baptists churches, etc. I don't associate all baptists with the Westboro Baptists church, just like no one should associate all holiness Pentecostals with the judgmental, self-righteous kind, which I do know exist.

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I know three of them. I am speaking from my personal experience and the overall situation as I see it.

I'm sorry you feel that it is judging your people, however the truth is the truth and this is a conversation.

It is however, what it is.

ToBeBlessed said:

I'd like to tell you what happened to my aunt who is a new Oneness Pentecostal.

She had been working at a local large chain department store. She was older (almost 55 yo) and although she was older, she was fine within her job. When she started following the 'guidelines' for holiness she stopped wearing makeup, doing anything with her hair and wearing only skirts to her ankle. Maybe if she had more fashion sense it wouldn't have been such a 180 degree change, but sadly it was.

Her husband cannot work and is disabled, so they were totally reliant on her income and also the weak health package for both of them. She has been bullied for more than 5 years, them trying to get her to quit. She is absolutely miserable, and I've noticed she's lost that spark, her personality. She' seems beaten.

Her church sisters have no problem with sheparding the new ones and keeping them up to the holiness standards of the church.

My point is psychologically you put your self into a situation that many had not really signed up for. Many times it is used to control and having others judge others within the church is not correct. Shaming someone is not lovingly bringing them back into the fold.

The other thing is holiness makes walking the fine line between works/grace and salvation a hard thing for them to separate. They do believe they must be holy, but there holiness is coming from them. It is not the Holy Spirit putting that on their heart, that was a decision that they made with their head.

When we do it ourself we are not using our muscles of faith, trust and leaning on Him.
I don't hate them at all, but they have issues.

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I don't know of any denominations that don't have issues… when the church began there were not 6 billion people on the planet. Denominations are the only way to have a church, and not have it be a political nightmare… which would happen in a one world church…. 'and keep us in fellowshipping with other believers". We just have to set our pride aside about we're better then them… or we know more, our doctrine is more correct etc etc… its ALL PRIDE!!!!
Otherwise, if people want to walk holy that is good but any church that teaches you must belong to us to be saved IS A CULT… and any that forbid association with other denominations IS A CULT….

I'd much prefer a holiness church to the liberal pro-abortion pro-gay marriage group of churches… ugh… as it is I am a non-denominational charismatic who most closely identifies with Assy of God theologically. I could join a AoG anywhere or a Four-Suare. I'm an an-nihilist too so that is problematic for most denominations but fortunately I don't want to be a minister….
God bless, andrea

freezerman2000 said:

I don't hate Pentecostals,I just highly dislike the way they come across to me at times...Worship our way or don't worship at all...If you don't believe like we do,you are not a true Christian..We are better Christians than the whole lot of you..ad nauseum.
It is the "Holier than thou" pride that sticks in my craw.

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I am sorry if some Pentecostals have done this to you. It would stick in my craw as well, and I'm a Pentecostal pastor!!

If you believe that Christ Jesus was both man and God, and that He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, and died for our sins; if you believe He was raised again on the third day, and you follow Christ as your Savior, you are a brother or sister in Christ, no matter how you worship.

This is the true reason for denominations. Some people worship quietly, some are, well, let's just say rowdy in their worship. Some sit and soak in everything the pastor says, and some jump and shout Amen.

Which is right? Both. A quiet, peaceful worshiper would be out of their element in a Pentecostal church, and a shouter would be lost in a quiet worship service. We have denominations so that all can worship God in their own way. We shouldn't be fighting each other, we should be encouraging each other.

My testimony...

I was brought up in the Marine Corp and it was not considered manly for men to touch one another. I was also cold and arrogant. I was also, having been brought up Baptist, of the Sardisean church age variety. My religion was in my head and whatever did not fit in the mental web was rejected. I am afraid that I was rude to my fellow Catholics. I knew one by the name of Bob in which he reached out with a hand of fellowship in which I heartedly refused. I have tried to look up Bob in the last decade to apologize but have never found his contact address. I also believed that Pentecostalism was of the devil and had its origins in Africa.

My point of view changed with the likes of the early 1900's type Pentecostalism in which I spent the summer after high school with my grandmother and had a rather eventful run in with the Pentecostal Holiness church, as this area of Virginia was in a time capsule, I got an experience of early 1900's Pentecostal anointing.

I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness church not because of the tongues, but because of the people, which were the finest I have ever met in my entire life. Pictured below is Dallas Linkous JR, which is probably the 'shoutingest' man I have ever met. As a teenager I would put up hay with him and go with him to the revivals at night. Both him and his wife were tongue talking, shouting, happy type Pentecostals. The joy was there equally there at home as well as at work. Every one of the fruits of the spirit lamped within their lives like a great over heated pot belly stove. There was also a decency among the people like I have never seen. My grandfather was good friends with Dallas. In the 1950's they would have revivals that would go for weeks and early in the AM. Granny said that grandfather could worship the Lord until 2 AM and not have any trouble at all rising at 6 AM for work.

I remember well as a young man Dallas coming behind me to pray with me at the alter, with tears running down his cheek and onto my neck. As a guy who did not like to be touched this was quite profound. At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, “Run Baby Run,” by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again… “Put the book down.” I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, “Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?” In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. “Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!” I would spend the rest of the summer rejoicing with the people and in revival until I went back to Michigan later that September.



How do I mentally describe the anointing? If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that m (mass) = E / c2 (Energy)… And there are three varieties…

Natural (mass) – God put everything together with Energy and light
Intellectual E/c2 – Our thinking can produce a spiritual light
Spiritual E / c2 – Energy (Motivation, warmth, love) Light (Faith, hope. charity, joy)…

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The spiritual E/c2 is picked up in the inner temple – Especially at the candlestick and the Holy of Holies…
1. Outer Wall - Justification - Faith
2. Alter - Salvation - Christ is our sacrifice
3. Laver - Sanctification - Conforming to a righteous believers standard.
*** Inner temple = Inner sanctification***
4. Lampstand - Energy, Motivation, faith, hope, charity, joy, peace, gentleness.
5. Table of Shewbread - Daily reading of God's word.
6. Alter of Golden Incense -Prayer and praise!
***Veil to the Holy of Holies***
7. Ark of the Covenant - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost

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There is also in the Inner Temple a place called the table of Shewbread, which I believe represents the Word of God. Every one of my friends that I knew growing up who were really filled with the Holy Ghost had a love for the Word of God. As a matter of fact, most of my friends had their pictures taken with the bible proudly held in their arms.

I knew a girl in church who got drunk in the Holy Spirit. You could not get anything out of her after service except a sweet little laugh. Well, the next night of service I was ready for the testimony. She said that she did not sleep that night for reading her bible. This, to me, authenticated her experience as genuine. The Holy Spirit gave her a love for the Word of God.

After these experiences I will embrace Pentecostalism all my days and daily cry out for more of him.

dragongunner said:

..Mens hair had to be cut just right, shouldn't watch or have a tv, no jewelry, woman's sleeves and mens sleeves all the way down to the wrist, dresses only for woman....its all "holiness" you know...

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This

I used to work with a woman who went to a united pentecostal church.She was the nicest person but she critizized me for cutting my hair,didnt believe in woman wearing pants,didn't believe in women wearing makeup etc.As a young christian it made me feel like I was less holy than her for some reason.

sunshineforJesus said:

I used to work with a woman who went to a united pentecostal church.She was the nicest person but she critizized me for cutting my hair,didnt believe in woman wearing pants,didn't believe in women wearing makeup etc.As a young christian it made me feel like I was less holy than her for some reason.

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That type of nonsense can chase people from Christ. Too much radical legalism that does nothing but separate. Too bad she was too blind to see what effect she was having on you and probably others around you. I was brought up in a Pentecostal Church. In the part of the U.S. I was from very few of the Pentecostals were that hardcore. Yes there were some but they tended to have their own click. I mean we could go to movies, plays and sporting events. Women could wear pants, jewelry, makeup and have short hair if they wanted too. Men could even have long hair. We could have friends that did not share our beliefs. I did have some people say, "I would have never guess you are a Pentecostal!" To which I would reply, "what did you mean by that?" So yes...I am fully aware of the stereotype. A When I went to the Denomination Conferences around the country I became aware that the stereotype was often based in fact! I had to "adjust" to the new scene.

Coming out from a "holiness" pentecostal church, I am always trying to understand why. My pastor at that time was so strong in the spirit, full of love and to this day have never met another that came close to what he had. And yet in some area's he was so far off, I guess there is weakness in the strongest, and strength in the weakest of us. Perhaps its part immaturity, or it could be self-righteousness, perhaps it just doesn't feel like we are worthy enough to be saved by grace.....and seeing without "holiness" no man shall see the Lord some have become overzealous looking for things to do or not do to prove to themselves they are worthy, or at least feel like they are doing something. Once its been planted, espicially by a pastor it tough to turn back, that feels like failure or being backslidden. Perhaps its because there is a lack of the spiritual gifts of wisdom and teachers.....perhaps a lack of these has and did cause pastors to step into these roles and come up with something, as I believe pastors have a great calling, but if they think they are above learning from others who may have gifts of the spirit then problems can come. We see in the NT that there were those who believed in circumcision for the Gentiles...it had to be done for salvation, for "holiness".....was this the first legalism attempt.....? it finally took one spirit filled man, perhaps filled with the spirit of wisdom to teach what was correct, and that it was not required for salvation.....and they got it. It seems alot in the "holiness" churches are more preferences, with some mis-interpetd scriptures to back up what we believe, and no spirit filled teacher full of wisdom around to say..."hey, thats not right and this is the reason why." My former "holiness" pastor liked to play basketball, so it wasn't a sin (but you couldn't watch it on tv, but the radio was ok)....he traveled to Denver CO and met his friend who had become a pastor, that pastor preached that basketball and baseball was a sin and preached to his congregation not to do those things....my pastor went home with him and when they got there the pastor asked my pastor if he would play a game of pool with him.....what?....yup, baseball and basketball is sin but pool is ok....my pastor said thats crazy and rebuked him, .....they didn't speak to each other the rest of the time he was at his house........don't figure. We are so complex it seems.

Sounds like Christian form of Sharia was happening there..that story is crazy!

OGM said:

That type of nonsense can chase people from Christ. Too much radical legalism that does nothing but separate. Too bad she was too blind to see what effect she was having on you and probably others around you. I was brought up in a Pentecostal Church. In the part of the U.S. I was from very few of the Pentecostals were that hardcore. Yes there were some but they tended to have their own click. I mean we could go to movies, plays and sporting events. Women could wear pants, jewelry, makeup and have short hair if they wanted too. Men could even have long hair. We could have friends that did not share our beliefs. I did have some people say, "I would have never guess you are a Pentecostal!" To which I would reply, "what did you mean by that?" So yes...I am fully aware of the stereotype. A When I went to the Denomination Conferences around the country I became aware that the stereotype was often based in fact! I had to "adjust" to the new scene.

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Yup.You're right.It sure can and makes those of us who are more free
in our beliefs question ourselves in my opinion.

sunshineforJesus said:

Yup.You're right.It sure can and makes those of us who are more free
in our beliefs question ourselves in my opinion.

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It certainly does. I agree.

They are also not afraid to tell Christians they are going straight to hell (because we believe in the trinity and we were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

When they tell you over and over you're going to hell as a Christian, that can be hard to swallow.

There is no room for views other than theirs. Funny thing is, asking them to explain their beliefs is futile also as many can't. There is no conversation as they are so set that they are right, it's indoctrination pure and simple.