Which is the LAW of GOD?

are you sure men didn't write something different than what Jesus said. you already stated we couldn't trust what was in the old testament. i believe all the scriptures are true.

In my opinion, it makes a lot more sense to go to the teachings of Jesus for instruction on how to be a Christian, rather than going through some of the many many rules of the Old Testament, because it does seem like Jesus did away with some rules, such as changing "an eye for an eye" to "love your enemies". So all in all it seems like He "updated" the old laws. I'm sure a lot of the laws found in the Old Testament are still valid today, such as "do not steal", but then a lot of things don't really apply much anymore, such as the part where it says we should burn our house down if we find mould in it.

Are red-letter Christians considered orthodox? Are there any in this thread?
They seem to paint Paul out of the picture so that gets rid of quite a bit of NT writings. No arguments if that is their belief, just wondering.

Seektruth, your post is very hard to follow, but overall I think you're missing the point. Think about the old testament laws (and I'm not just talking about the ten commandments here). There are loads and loads of 'em! There's even a law which says we should tear our house down if it has mould in it. Do you honestly believe that we are intended to follow all those laws? It's probably not even possible, and that's why Jesus died for us. If we need to thrash through all of these laws then we won't even have time to do the one thing that Jesus REALLY wants us to do, which is to go into all the world preaching.

Think about the Sabbath also. Jesus essentially did away with that law, in the sense that we don't have to be so careful about NOT doing things on the Sabbath. I went to Israel once, and one Saturday I saw a man walk up several flights of stairs just to avoid pushing the button on the elevator. I thought he was missing the point of the Sabbath, and the reason for that law in the first place. That's why Jesus needed to clear it up.

Jesus made it clear what he wants us to do, and in my opinion we don't need any other lists of rules (other than the promptings of the holy spirit).

Omena said:

Think about the Sabbath also. Jesus essentially did away with that law, in the sense that we don't have to be so careful about NOT doing things on the Sabbath.

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He didn't "essentially do away with the Sabbath." There are no "essentiallys" about it. He did a LOT more than that. He completely fulfilled the Sabbath. And even more than that, he blatantly VIOLATED it to demonstrate that he represented the end of that law. The Pharisees were quite correct: Jesus had willfully violated the Sabbath.

The last legitimate Sabbath was the one Christ spent in the Tomb. Anybody who does not immediately see that he both fulfilled the Sabbath and ended it has missed the clear point of the Gospel. After Christ arose from the dead, the Sabbath instantly became a pointless and obsolete anachronism. The only reason anyone would observe the Sabbath now is to either deny or denigrate what the Resurrection accomplished. St. Paul could not have made himself any plainer in Colossians 2:14-17:

"14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had [a]disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to [c]act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath [d]day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the [e]substance [f]belongs to Christ.

The Apostles were under no illusions that the Sabbath was ended when they issued the decree from the Council of Jerusalem in AD 50, which declared that Gentile Christians were NOT under the Mosaic Law. They couldn't have made themselves one bit clearer.

How can the lord of the sabbath violate his own sabbath. Violation of the sabbath would mean sin. Jesus is sinless, meaning he did not sin.
The pharisees added their tradditions to the sabbath. Jesus had to educate them on what the sabbath was, and who it was for.

5fish5chips said:

How can the lord of the sabbath violate his own sabbath. Violation of the sabbath would mean sin. Jesus is sinless, meaning he did not sin.
The pharisees added their tradditions to the sabbath. Jesus had to educate them on what the sabbath was, and who it was for.

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He could violate the Sabbath because it was "all about him." It pointed to him. He fulfilled it. He was making a point crystal clear: He could break the Sabbath because it was OVER. You cannot break a law that does not exist. The last valid Sabbath was the one Christ spent in the Tomb.

Judaism has unequivocally rejected Christ and the Resurrection. Yet, nobody disputes they keep the Sabbath. This is what is commonly known as "cause and effect."

What part about "It is Finished" are you confused about?

Choose sides. Follow Christ or follow Judaism. There is no in between.

LarryP2 said:

He could violate the Sabbath because it was "all about him." It pointed to him. He fulfilled it. He was making a point crystal clear: He could break the Sabbath because it was OVER. The last valid Sabbath was the one Christ spent in the Tomb.

Judaism has unequivocally rejected Christ and the Resurrection. Yet, nobody disputes they keep the Sabbath. This is what is commonly known as "cause and effect."

What part about "It is Finished" are you confused about?

Choose sides. Follow Christ or follow Judaism. There is no in between.

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He could note violate the law>sabbath. This would do away with Jesus being a spotless sacrifice. This statements defeats your statement. Jesus did not come to earth knowing he had power wearing the Popes [lol] coat of indulgences.

Once you can prove that Jesus was aloud to transgress the law without tarnishing his spotless sacrifice, WITH THE BIBLE. Then come back.

The ten commandment laws are all about common respect, toward God, ourselves, and others, and all other laws which follow or are man made laws center around the the same thing truly, madly, deeply respecting and loving, God, one another, and ourselves, which Jesus Christ notes in his two laws...

If one is "perfect" in love then one will so very truly madly deeply respect others and truly care so very deeply about one another so as not do anything, and I mean anything (harmful or hurtful) against them, (or ourselves, or God). And will always, and I mean always, be moved by that "perfect" love to share help and support others who are in need.

So "perfect" Love is the standard, and is the one and only rule upon which all other laws made or conceived of/upon hang...

In Jesus Christ Holy name, God Bless!

Porque77 said:

That's not true. In the ten commandments of the Old Testament there are commands that allow men be owners of other men and have them slaves. And many other laws of the Old Testament are laws that mandate that men punish and kill other men.

These laws of slavery and punishment and death sentences are not laws "about common respect, toward God, ourselves, and others", nor laws "respecting and loving, God, one another, and ourselves, which Jesus Christ notes in his two laws".

All these laws are contrary to the commandments of Jesus to love our neighbor. And these laws are contrary to love for God, because to love God, we should love our neighbor as ourselves and not have slaves, or hurt or kill people, the opposite of what command to men many Old Testament laws.

The Law of the Gospel is totally contrary to the laws of the Old Testament that command slavery, punishments and death sentences.

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Your perception is colored by modern day values of American and western society and ideas that we tout, and toot our own horn about, but some one who is having to work two or three jobs in a major metropolitan area just to make ends meet, is no better than a slave... America and western society has "claimed" to have "eliminated" slavery, but have they really, when you really think about it, and in ancient times some slaves, or servants to a master in the nation of Israel in the OT, when times were good anyways, were actually treated quite fairly, and in Israel anyways slaves and servant had certain rights, some of them didn't have to work/slave nearly as hard as a modern day common person on the/starting from the very bottom in America, or the west has to, just to "make it" month to month, just to have the basic necessities of what they need to survive, in this life...

And you want to compare laws and methods of justice and capitol punishment of criminals in both societies too, Do you really think America's laws and systems/methods of capitol punishment and how laws are enforced were better or more righteous or more just than Israels? I believe America may be to lenient in certain cases of criminal justice, and most of this is due to, I think unassuredness of confidence in our legal system and our laws and because of how messed up it's become...

Also God does not have the same point of view on the first death that we do, we see it as an "end-all", he doesn't, he see's it as their being called to made to stand before him, the ultimate judge... What's the purpose or point of allowing someone with a life sentence in prison, with no possibility of parole, what's the point in allowing that person to keep living, if they've done something so horendous to be deserving of such a sentence, why not just kill them painlessly and mercifully, with say an overdose of lethal injection of painless anastesia, putting them to sleep forever, or something to that same effect, what's the point in allowing that/those person's to keep living and being a constant drain on our resources, not to mention the trouble those kind of people tend to stir up and cause within the other inmates of the prison system, due to their seeing themselves of having no chance of ever getting out, I don't see the point.

Now I agree having the people participate in stoning anyone, and I mean anyone to death who was found guilty of breaking even one of the ten commandments is not exactly just either, but their was a divine reason and purpose behind God setting that up, as I said he doesn't have the same point of view on the first death that we do, so anything that was unjust, will be made just by him in the next life.

But, I believe the reason God instituted "all" of the people participating in the stoning, the killing were going to eventually be made aware that they (doing the stoning) were all law breakers too, and it was to eventually show that from God's point of view, all were deserving of death, and when they began to see this, then they may have said, "I am just as guilty as that person I participated in killing" and would come to know and it would eventually, not only set things up for the redeemer of the one freeing us from the curse of law, (our sin) (Jesus Christ, to show our need for a savior),

but also that all might come to realize that anything they have or possess or get, even just life itself and being alive, is a "gift" and is the result of the incredible divine lengths of the mercy and grace and long-suffering kindness of God, for he knew we all deserved death from the moment Adam fell and sin was introduced into the world, but all this was to show that everything was a gift, and a result of God not giving us what we rightfully deserve, but what we don't deserve, and that is anything we get in/out of life and life and being alive itself...

Now as for some of those first people who were made examples of in the beginnings by being stoned to death by the people who were not aware yet, but were in the process of being made aware (that they too were deserving of nothing but death) but as for those first victims, with God's point of view on death, did God "make things right" for them, and will we see them in the next life, I tend to believe and think that we will...

Anyways as far as your "world view" goes, You still seem to be on the side of the west, and western philosophy and ideas and thinking, without considering the rest of the world's (and are therefore not having, possessing and adopting a true "world view" and perspective) and being neutral in whose ways could be right or wrong... America, and the western world's views and philosophies about running things, especially since they seem to be falling apart on us here, are not the only sole ones to strongly consider... Broaden your horizons consider other nations ideas and philosophies, before making any judgement calls and I believe this be to your benefit...

Anyways, I'll just close with in Jesus name, God Bless!

5fish5chips said:

How can the lord of the sabbath violate his own sabbath. Violation of the sabbath would mean sin. Jesus is sinless, meaning he did not sin.
The pharisees added their tradditions to the sabbath. Jesus had to educate them on what the sabbath was, and who it was for.

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Violating the Sabbath was not a sin for Jesus Christ. He created it. He can do anything he wants with it. And he can "spike the football" and do "end-zone dances" and it matters nothing. He's sacred, not the Sabbath. He created it. It belonged to him. It pointed to him. It became instantly obsolete the minute he set foot on this planet.

It is nonsense that he was there to "Educate them on what the Sabbath was." They already knew. They were the experts on it. He openly broke the Sabbath to demonstrate its complete and utter obsolescence, and he rubbed the Pharisees' noses in the fact. They were just as obsolete as their Sabbath was. Deep down inside, they knew it.

Additionally, he violated "rules" that claim every human being must sin and die. He violated the known laws of Physics when he was resurrected and when he ascended. He violated all known standards of human behavior, and instituted a new Law of Love. The early Christians were outraged when he appeared before the Apostle Paul (who had just finished helping in the murder of Stephen), convinced that nasty serial killer to stop murdering and to become the greatest Apostle instead.

That had never happened before. Laws are little or no constraint on the creator of the Universe.

Porque77 said:

God did not decree that men kill other men. These only are precepts of men. True Law that God gave to Israel is what Jesus Christ taught in the gospel, and the gospel does not command men to kill other men. The Gospel commands mercy and forgiveness for all.

Many Old Testament laws are contrary to the Law of the Gospel, and those laws can only be understood so as the prophets understood: as a law changed. The prophets tell us so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

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If you think everyone is getting into heaven, so easily, I hate to say it but your wrong, even Jesus himself taught that narrow and cramped is the road/pathway into heaven, and broad and spacious is the road(s) leading off into destruction and "few" are the ones finding the road/pathway into life, and "many" are the ones going off into destruction, especially in the last days...

And the Original ten commandments written by God himself, in the OT, are not "contrary" to Christ's teachings either, "all" must first admit to God that they are sinners, deserving of nothing but death, before they can be baptized in symbol of repentance, or born again, in Christ, the original law covenant was meant to do this, get sinners to admit that they are sinners, and that there is none righteous, no, not even one, except God, and bring them to a point of turning around (repenting) and intstitute for themselves a changing of there former ways of conduct, before one can truly be born again, otherwise it means nothing if one does not change their former ways, and think they will still be accepted by Christ, or God, these will be the ones (the ones not truly repenting, or being born again, playing false to themselves, God, and the Holy Spirit) to whom Jesus will say "Get away from me, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness)

You Just think that you yourself, by yourself, can preach tolerance and love for all, and you think that by doing this you yourself, by yourself and through your work, will see many, many people admitted into heaven, well, if that's what you think, I hate to say it but, you are wrong. and are only trying to appeal to the masses and (you think) get as many as you can by your teaching/preaching, but you are really getting none at all, because you do not tell them the truth... by your saying and agreeing with "which is the law of God?", when both and all are the Law of God, and there is nothing contrary or contradicting between OT and NT teachings/scriptures, and by your suggesting that NT and OT philosophies are somehow contrary and contradictory to one another, when they actually compliment and fulfill each other... I sincerely hope you don't have to pay any consequences for that...

Well, that's all I have to say for now, In Jesus Christ holy name, may God Bless all those truly in his will, Amen."