Is sin the reason for one's damnation or not?

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janxharris

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No verse. How about passages, though?

John 3:3ff

Eph 2:1ff

John 3 relies on the 'see' of v.3 meaning 'understand'. John clarifies his meaning in v.5:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Nothing here about being born again before faith. You are extrapolating without good reason.

It is the same with Ephesians 2:1ff. Paul has already explicitly stated the order in the previous chapter:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2 is talking about men who have this faith, so the fact that v.5 makes no mention of it will not avail your argument. And v.8 clarifies that the grace comes through faith.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

It makes no sense that Jesus and the apostles should preach the gospel and yet fail to mention that regeneration is of God's choosing, is unconditional, and comes before faith.
 
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janxharris

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Eph 2:5 "by grace are you saved" No mention of faith here. And your opinion of my opinion is equally wrong.
Ah, but regeneration is not salvation. Salvation encompasses several different and related things. Playing fast and loose with terms is the mark of the anti-Calvinist. Being made alive logically equates to regeneration (aka born again).

Paul explicitly states the order in the previous chapter:

vv.13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Faith comes before the Holy Spirit seal. Ephesians 1:5 has not forgotten or ignored this fact. It just does not mention it until v.8 which has the grace coming through faith.

If divine regeneration is the sine qua non of faith, then the Calvinist should be expected to explain why scripture does not say so. For it turns the Gospel on its head otherwise.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever...that is, those He elected to regenerate...believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
 
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janxharris

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I am discussing what Jesus taught , don't duck , all the council of God is up for study , not selective evidence to "prove a point "

Okay, please show how:

Matthew 25
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

relates to John 10?

They are separate illustration making separate points. In John 10, Jesus is affirming that He is the good shepherd and the Pharisees are anything but. The focus is on their bad shepherd-ship, not limited atonement or divine election. You are inferring doctrines from John 10 but the context is clear:

vv.5-6
But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and addresses their bad shepherd-ship - an example of which is evident in the previous chapter when they throw the once blind man out of the synagogue. That is the context and that is why Jesus says what he says in chapter 10.

If you disagree, please explain why.
 
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nobdysfool

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Paul explicitly states the order in the previous chapter:

vv.13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Faith comes before the Holy Spirit seal. Ephesians 1:5 has not forgotten or ignored this fact. It just does not mention it until v.8 which has the grace coming through faith.

Perhaps it will surprise you to know that no Calvinist would disagree that faith comes before the indwelling of the Spirit. The problem here is that suddenly the definitions become fuzzy for you, such that you interchange regeneration with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and that without warrant, because they are not the same thing, at all...

If divine regeneration is the sine qua non of faith, then the Calvinist should be expected to explain why scripture does not say so. For it turns the Gospel on its head otherwise.
Divine regeneration the sine qua non of faith?? What ever are you going on about? Divine regeneration comes before faith, and is the reason that faith can be exercised toward Christ. It is the new birth, the beginning of spiritual life. It seems that many, if not most non-Calvinists are more concerned with single verses that state succinctly what they want to hear, than to understand that a theology built on single verses and soundbites is 10 miles square, and only half an inch deep.

Calvinists deal more in passages of Scripture, sometimes whole chapters, so that it can be more readily discerned the context and intent of the thoughts being expressed, and what they mean in the light of all of Scripture. We aren't big on soundbites, and single verses, which can seem to say one thing in isolation, but when considered in their context often say something far different.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever...that is, those He elected to regenerate...believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Oh, aren't you clever, dragging that tired old straw man out yet again for another go at the flames! All for that magical word, "whosoever". It fairly rolls off the tongue, it sounds so-ooo spiritual, so authoritative. And yet all it means is "anyone who". It does not address ability, intent, or desire. The verse is in the literary form of "if A, then B", with an introduction which simply state that God loved the world in this way, and then proceeds with the "If A, then B", making a statement that by itself does not tell the whole of the Gospel, only the central part, that Christ died and in so doing, secured everlasting life for those who believe on Him. The verse does not concern itself with how they believe, why they believe, or even if anyone CAN believe. Those things are not addressed by this verse at all , in any way, shape, or form.

Because this verse does not impose limits, that doesn't mean that there are none. We find these things in other passages of the Scriptures, somewhat as a puzzle, that by study we can piece together and find the information that is not stated in one verse. Why God did it that way we may only speculate, but we do have to deal with it. We can only acknowledge that whatever His motives and reason for doing so, they were Good, Honorable, Just and Right, because as God, it is impossible for Him to fail to do and be those attributes of His Character.
 
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janxharris

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Perhaps it will surprise you to know that no Calvinist would disagree that faith comes before the indwelling of the Spirit. The problem here is that suddenly the definitions become fuzzy for you, such that you interchange regeneration with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and that without warrant, because they are not the same thing, at all...

Holy Spirit regeneration, faith, indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Isn't that tautological?

Divine regeneration the sine qua non of faith?? What ever are you going on about? Divine regeneration comes before faith, and is the reason that faith can be exercised toward Christ. It is the new birth, the beginning of spiritual life. It seems that many, if not most non-Calvinists are more concerned with single verses that state succinctly what they want to hear, than to understand that a theology built on single verses and soundbites is 10 miles square, and only half an inch deep.

Calvinists deal more in passages of Scripture, sometimes whole chapters, so that it can be more readily discerned the context and intent of the thoughts being expressed, and what they mean in the light of all of Scripture. We aren't big on soundbites, and single verses, which can seem to say one thing in isolation, but when considered in their context often say something far different.

Sine qua non = without which not.

Still no verse, verses or chapter that explicitly agrees with you.

Oh, aren't you clever, dragging that tired old straw man out yet again for another go at the flames! All for that magical word, "whosoever". It fairly rolls off the tongue, it sounds so-ooo spiritual, so authoritative. And yet all it means is "anyone who". It does not address ability, intent, or desire.

Yes it does...in context...which is that such belief is just as it was when Moses lifted up the bronze serpent. Anyone who was bitten could look and live. That is the clear and obvious understanding that John conveys.

The verse is in the literary form of "if A, then B", with an introduction which simply state that God loved the world in this way, and then proceeds with the "If A, then B", making a statement that by itself does not tell the whole of the Gospel, only the central part, that Christ died and in so doing, secured everlasting life for those who believe on Him. The verse does not concern itself with how they believe, why they believe, or even if anyone CAN believe. Those things are not addressed by this verse at all , in any way, shape, or form.

Again v.14 is incontrovertible. Anyone with exception could be cured IF they trusted the offer enough to look to the serpent.

Your understanding forces a twisting of v.14 and has v.16 as a mere statement of fact. If you read vv. 14, 15 and 16 together, it is clear that eternal life is offered because of the context.

John 3:14-16
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Question: Was the offer of the bronze serpent limited to an elect? Was it the case that bitten man A could look because he was elect, but bitten man B could not?

Because this verse does not impose limits, that doesn't mean that there are none. We find these things in other passages of the Scriptures, somewhat as a puzzle, that by study we can piece together and find the information that is not stated in one verse. Why God did it that way we may only speculate, but we do have to deal with it. We can only acknowledge that whatever His motives and reason for doing so, they were Good, Honorable, Just and Right, because as God, it is impossible for Him to fail to do and be those attributes of His Character.

Sorry, but the context - the parallel with Numbers 21 - unquestionably makes the scope universal. Other scriptures only confirm this. Your insistence on limited atonement and election makes John woefully negligent and misleading in his choice of words. Same with Luke in chapter 22:20-21 of his gospel.
 
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janxharris

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There is nothing in John 10 that supports the doctrine of limited atonement. Clearly, Jesus' intention in using the figure of the shepherd and his sheep is to show that the Pharisees equate to thieves, robbers and hired hands (See Ezekiel 34, which Jesus surely had in mind). In v.6, John points out that the Pharisees did not understand this: 'Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.'

The context of Jesus' use of this illustration is set in the previous chapter where Jesus heals a blind man. The Pharisees proceed to investigate and the healed man is summoned to them. He (who was once blind) then rejects their attempts at discrediting Jesus and, after he he has been thrown out by the Pharisees, he worships Jesus:

John 9:30-34;38
The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.

Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
So here we have an example of what Jesus says in his illustration:

John 10:4c, 5
and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
That the Pharisees throw the man out (of the synagogue) proves Jesus' point that they care nothing for 'the sheep'.

Not only is Jesus the good shepherd, He also speaks of Himself as, figuratively, the door.

v.9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Far from teaching anything about limiting his work of atonement, Jesus tells them that 'anyone' may enter. Jesus could have said, 'anyone chosen,' which would have made sense if His intention was to limit His atonement. He tellingly did not do so.

What we do know is this:

Matthew 4:17 & 23
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Is it seriously to be suggested that Jesus commanded men to repent even though He had no intention of dying for them? By all means preach to men whom He knew would reject Him, for it was such as these very instances of having the Gospel presented to them and their rejection of it that established God's foreknowledge that they would not believe (such knowledge being know eternally, of course; God does not 'find out' at the moment in creation history when it actually occurs).
 
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Hammster

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John 3 relies on the 'see' of v.3 meaning 'understand'. John clarifies his meaning in v.5:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Nothing here about being born again before faith. You are extrapolating without good reason.
Not at all. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is at hand. And you can't see it or enter it without being born again. And then He says you must be born of water and Spirit. But then He goes on to say that just like the wind blows where it wishes, and you can't see it or know where it comes from, so it is with those who are born from the Spirit. Belief isn't even mentioned until well into the chapter. This is why you must read it as a whole instead of picking and choosing the verses that you thing disprove Calvinism.
It is the same with Ephesians 2:1ff. Paul has already explicitly stated the order in the previous chapter:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
The seal of the Holy Spirit is not regeneration. Not sure why you'd think it is. Especially since Paul talks about regeneration in the next chapter. Maybe you can do some research on what a seal meant back then. Fascinating picture.
Ephesians 2 is talking about men who have this faith, so the fact that v.5 makes no mention of it will not avail your argument. And v.8 clarifies that the grace comes through faith.
Faith isn't even mentioned until verse 8. I'm sure you're just accustomed to understanding it that way. But Paul is clear that we are made alive by grace. Paul goes through great lengths to show our deadness. There's a reason. It's because dead men don't have faith. They are dead. But I'm sure you'll need to discount that word picture to prop up your tradition.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

It makes no sense that Jesus and the apostles should preach the gospel and yet fail to mention that regeneration is of God's choosing, is unconditional, and comes before faith.
Well, Jesus did mention it. John 3.
 
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Hammster

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There is nothing in John 10 that supports the doctrine of limited atonement. Clearly, Jesus' intention in using the figure of the shepherd and his sheep is to show that the Pharisees equate to thieves, robbers and hired hands (See Ezekiel 34, which Jesus surely had in mind). In v.6, John points out that the Pharisees did not understand this: 'Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.'

The context of Jesus' use of this illustration is set in the previous chapter where Jesus heals a blind man. The Pharisees proceed to investigate and the healed man is summoned to them. He (who was once blind) then rejects their attempts at discrediting Jesus and, after he he has been thrown out by the Pharisees, he worships Jesus:

John 9:30-34;38
The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.

Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
So here we have an example of what Jesus says in his illustration:

John 10:4c, 5
and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
That the Pharisees throw the man out (of the synagogue) proves Jesus' point that they care nothing for 'the sheep'.

Not only is Jesus the good shepherd, He also speaks of Himself as, figuratively, the door.

v.9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Far from teaching anything about limiting his work of atonement, Jesus tells them that 'anyone' may enter. Jesus could have said, 'anyone chosen,' which would have made sense if His intention was to limit His atonement. He tellingly did not do so.

What we do know is this:

Matthew 4:17 & 23
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Is it seriously to be suggested that Jesus commanded men to repent even though He had no intention of dying for them? By all means preach to men whom He knew would reject Him, for it was such as these very instances of having the Gospel presented to them and their rejection of it that established God's foreknowledge that they would not believe (such knowledge being know eternally, of course; God does not 'find out' at the moment in creation history when it actually occurs).

There you go again, chasing anyone who with anyone may, as if they are interchangeable terms. But I suppose you must.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No verse. How about passages, though?

John 3:3ff

Eph 2:1ff
Neither passages speaks of regeneration before faith. In fact, combining Eph 2:5 with 2:8 and we see that faith precedes being saved, which is equated with being made alive. Which refutes the claim that regeneration precedes faith.

And there isn't anything in the John 3ff passage that indicates any order of faith and regeneration.

But the point is that there are no verses, as correctly noted. Because there aren't any. When one must point to a passage rather than a clear verse, demonstrates the claim cannot be backed up with Scripture.

One could just as well defend their views by claiming the passage: Gen 1:1-Rev 22:21. Right.

The Bible makes some very specific statements. I've shown specific verses that specifically SAY what I have claimed. Though those verses have been discarded by some as being "out of context", there was no attempt to prove that claim.

Be wary of claims without explanation or verses that actually SAYS what is being claimed.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No. We are justified by faith, according to Paul.
My comment was that salvation follows faith, so your comment here is irrelevant to my point. The context, which is being ignored, was about the sequence of faith and regeneration. In Epgh 2:5 Paul equates being made alive with being saved. And in 2:8 he notes that we are saved through faith, meaning that faith precedes salvation, which you have previously agreed with.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Every time you use a verse out of context (which is pretty much your theology), you've deconstructed the text.
How come there is never any attempt to prove your claim about my verses being used out of context. Throwing out charges without any evidence is easy to do. But since my verses aren't out of context, I understand why there isn't any evidence to accompany the charges.
 
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cygnusx1

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My comment was that salvation follows faith, so your comment here is irrelevant to my point. The context, which is being ignored, was about the sequence of faith and regeneration. In Epgh 2:5 Paul equates being made alive with being saved. And in 2:8 he notes that we are saved through faith, meaning that faith precedes salvation, which you have previously agreed with.

Why do sinners need to be regenerated ?

The new body can wait till Glory , why not regeneration ..?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Eph 2:5
Of course we know it's not referring to physical death. But spiritual death makes one deaf to the things of a spiritual nature, one of which is the Gospel.
John 5:25 refutes your opinion. He said the dead (spiritually) will hear. Your opinion is the opposite.

And, as has been pointed out, your theology consists of single verses, often ripped from their context. Your theology is just soundbites.
Really? What evidence is there to back up your charge? It's easy to throw charges and cheap shots (your theology is just soundbites). But much more difficult to back up those charges.

Obviously you put great stock in refutation.
It's how one determines what is true and what is false. RT has been soundly refuted over and over, though none of the Calvinists will admit it.

Truth cannot be refuted. Which is why I always ask if my view can be refuted. All I get in return is disagreement and these cheap sound bites about my theology. But no substance. I have shown from many verses, all of which agree with each other, and SAY what I believe. RT is unable to do that.
 
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Neither passages speaks of regeneration before faith. In fact, combining Eph 2:5 with 2:8 and we see that faith precedes being saved, which is equated with being made alive. Which refutes the claim that regeneration precedes faith.

And there isn't anything in the John 3ff passage that indicates any order of faith and regeneration.

But the point is that there are no verses, as correctly noted. Because there aren't any. When one must point to a passage rather than a clear verse, demonstrates the claim cannot be backed up with Scripture.

One could just as well defend their views by claiming the passage: Gen 1:1-Rev 22:21. Right.

The Bible makes some very specific statements. I've shown specific verses that specifically SAY what I have claimed. Though those verses have been discarded by some as being "out of context", there was no attempt to prove that claim.

Be wary of claims without explanation or verses that actually SAYS what is being claimed.

So basically your rebuttal is "nuh uh".

And the fact that you put verses over passages just further demonstrates how shallow your theology is.

:doh:
 
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FreeGrace2

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Why do sinners need to be regenerated ?

The new body can wait till Glory , why not regeneration ..?
Good question. I can't find any verse or passage that tells us why. So, what is your opinion of why?
 
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Hammster

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My comment was that salvation follows faith, so your comment here is irrelevant to my point. The context, which is being ignored, was about the sequence of faith and regeneration. In Epgh 2:5 Paul equates being made alive with being saved. And in 2:8 he notes that we are saved through faith, meaning that faith precedes salvation, which you have previously agreed with.

Your point was wrong. Mine corrected it. Paul Paul equates being made alive with regeneration. And that is by grace.
 
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Hammster

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How come there is never any attempt to prove your claim about my verses being used out of context. Throwing out charges without any evidence is easy to do. But since my verses aren't out of context, I understand why there isn't any evidence to accompany the charges.

Every time you use a verse and ignore the context, which is almost every time, that's proof in itself. There's nothing further for me to prove.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So basically your rebuttal is "nuh uh".

And the fact that you put verses over passages just further demonstrates how shallow your theology is.
So, basically, you couldn't refute what I said. As I thought.

Even your charge is ridiculous. My view comes from verses that actually SAYS what I believe, unlike RT, which can't do that. RT is forced to take a passage that does NOT SAY what they believe, yet they pretend it does.

For example, your claim that John 3ff teaches that regeneration precedes faith. Yet, there are no specific words or phrases to come to that conclusion, so the claim is false.

When there are no specific words or phrases to back up your claim, said claim is empty. I sure wouldn't accept an empty theology.

Shallow is far deeper than empty. In anybody's book. ;)
 
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Your point was wrong. Mine corrected it. Paul Paul equates being made alive with regeneration. And that is by grace.
Wrong. Paul equated being made alive with being saved. Even a quick read of Eph 2:5 shows that.

btw, being made alive and regeneration are not equated. They are the SAME THING.
 
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