The Last Day

ebedmelech said:

Of course I referenced it with respect to resurredtion, but I never said the resurrection happened.

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Great, then you acknowlege that Rev 20 is future and not past or present.

Okay...that's a given...but what's your point? When one can see a prophecy that was historically fulfilled, it gives testimony that God;s word is sure, and can be trusted...that in itself is quite powerful. The Psalm says the "heavens declare the glory of God...", it's been doing that quite a long time. I mention this just as a point that you're not logical in your argument. For instance, that God brought Israel out of Egypt serves as a historical testimony of fact!

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That is the point, the Day of the Lord is not fulfilled and Christians are warned about those who say that the Day of the Lord has already come.. because it hasn't.

Here's where mincing words without context becomes the issue. Was it not Jesus that said in Matthew 23:37-39:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

The "house" left desolate is the temple, as Jesus said this in the temple. It is as He leaves the temple that Matthew 24 comes into play, because Jesus has told THEM not one stone of the temple would be left upon another. WE KNOW that happened in 70 AD...it is NOT a future event. Jesus even gave the disciples the signs they would expect to tell them to leave Jerusalem!

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While the Temple was destroyed in AD70, that doesn't mean that Christ came. Trying to fit the coming of Christ into AD70 is futile and ridiculous at best.

But then again, it's precisely what the god of this present evil world would like people to believe, even members of the body of Christ. 'til this day the rulers of the darkness of this world are doing their best to wipe Israel from the map.

The god of this world obviously hates Israel, and he gets many to hate them with him.. you know how that misery loves company, right?

bibletruth469 said in post 243:

The Jewish people are a different group of people than the church of Jesus Christ.

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Not entirely. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

bibletruth469 said in post 243:

They will still keep their heritage. That's where you get a messianic Jew.

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On Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced those with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, whereas those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the 10 commandments), written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

iamlamad said in post 245:

It will be the day that the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in.

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When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

ebedmelech said in post 247:

Read Matthew 24...was not Jerusalem surrounded by armies and destroyed and NOT ONE STONE remained of the temple?

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Are you thinking of when Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20)? If so, there he's referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20 he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15 he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

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ebedmelech said in post 260:

Was it not Jesus that said in Matthew 23:37-39:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

The "house" left desolate is temple, as Jesus said this in the temple.

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Matthew 23:38 refers to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) insofar as it rejects Jesus (1 John 5:12b, cf. Galatians 4:25), whereas Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of all the unbelieving elect Jews in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

Also, Matthew 23:38, like Matthew 27:51, didn't mean the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem had become spiritually desolate. For it remained holy even after Jesus' death and resurrection. That's why the church continued to worship God there (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). What the rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 pictured was the opening of the holiest place in heaven to Christians (Hebrews 10:19-22, Hebrews 9:24) by the abolishing of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b) and the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) at the moment Jesus died on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:50-51).

The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 didn't mean God no longer dwelt in the 2nd temple (as in Matthew 23:21). That's why (again) the church continued to worship in the 2nd temple even after Jesus' death and resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

ebedmelech said in post 260:

It is as He leaves the temple that Matthew 24 comes into play, because Jesus has told THEM not one stone of the temple would be left upon another. WE KNOW that happened in 70 AD...it is NOT a future event.

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The end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

ebedmelech said in post 260:

Jesus even gave the disciples the signs they would expect to tell them to leave Jerusalem!

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Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), this doesn't have to mean first-century-AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One of the most spectacular events which will take place in that last day is this..

The nation of Israel shall be delivered..

Not destroyed, but rather delivered.. taken through the most unimaginable time that this world will ever know.

What strikes me as rather amazing (and yet it shouldn't be) is that huge numbers of Christians are being indoctrinated into the exact opposite.

That the destruction of Jerusalem was the time of the end..

Pretty soon it will most likely be outrageous to believe what the bible actually teaches, especially with respect to its prophetic truth concerning Israel.

Which happens to be the very foundation of the church of God, along with the twelve Jewish Apostles of the Lamb.. And of course the only Apostle to the Gentiles, The Apostle Paul.

Old Timer said:

Great, then you acknowlege that Rev 20 is future and not past or present.

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Of course it's future. The problem is many don't understand the 1000 year reign of Christ began when He was resurrected. Take Ephesians 1:18-22
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Now...how is it that people read that, and not understand that Chris is over everything right now. The passage clearly said Christ authority came from the Father when He raised Him from the dead. Yet people want to conclude Satan is in control of this world when the passage clearly refutes that.

Old Timer said:

That is the point, the Day of the Lord is not fulfilled and Christians are warned about those who say that the Day of the Lord has already come.. because it hasn't.

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However the point is, that you cannot acknowledge that AD 70 was "a day of the Lord". Simply look up the term in scripture and you'll quickly see "the day of the Lord is a day the Lord comes in judgment.

Old Timer said:

While the Temple was destroyed in AD70, that doesn't mean that Christ came. Trying to fit the coming of Christ into AD70 is futile and ridiculous at best.

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Not futile...but fact! That you cannot accept it is on you...becuase your view of eschatology ignores HOW scripture speaks of these things. As I said above, I say again research the term "the day of the Lord"...see what is happening in each case.

Old Timer said:

But then again, it's precisely what the god of this present evil world would like people to believe, even members of the body of Christ. 'til this day the rulers of the darkness of this world are doing their best to wipe Israel from the map.

The god of this world obviously hates Israel, and he gets many to hate them with him.. you know how that misery loves company, right?

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This again comes from your "eschatalogical view"...a view that ignores the symbolism of scripture, particularly in Revelation, and therefore misses the point of what's really happening.

Think about it. What reason would Christians have to hate Israel when the offer of salvation is to EVERYONE? Once again this is a weak argument and thrusted upon those who say that it's not about Israel...but it's about the "Israel of God" which is all believers. You have been taught to ignore passages that are clearly saying Israel is a spiritual people of God since the cross...and therefore because of that fact, they want to say we who believe that... hate Israel. Nothing is further from the truth, especially when God commands us to love everyone. As I said it's a weak argument, and it's a sad one.

I'll stand with Jesus. He sent the apostles to THE WORLD starting at Jerusalem. Try reading Matthew 28:18-20. It clearly tells you the gospel is to all, not just Israel...so who needs to hate Israel?

Bible2 said:

Are you thinking of when Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20)? If so, there he's referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20 he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15 he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31....

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Regarding everything you said Bible2...I wont even go over this again with you. Run with what you think scripture teaches, and I'll do the same. We'll see how it happens.

ebedmelech said:

Of course it's future. The problem is many don't understand the 1000 year reign of Christ began when He was resurrected. Take Ephesians 1:18-22

Now...how is it that people read that, and not understand that Chris is over everything right now. The passage clearly said Christ authority came from the Father when He raised Him from the dead. Yet people want to conclude Satan is in control of this world when the passage clearly refutes that.

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Are you confused? You just said that Rev 20 is future and then say that it began at the resurrection of Christ?

Regardless, we just went over Matthew 25 which shows the Lord sitting upon the throne of His glory when He comes in His glory. This is when the Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

However the point is, that you cannot acknowledge that AD 70 was "a day of the Lord". Simply look up the term in scripture and you'll quickly see "the day of the Lord is a day the Lord comes in judgment.

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Nowhere does scripture teach that the there is more than one Day of the Lord, every instance in scripture is future, even in the OT. This is why the Apostle to the Gentiles warns believers of those who say exactly what you're saying.. that it's past already.

Once again, it's a fairly easy matter to trust in the living and powerful word of God rather than what men say.

Not futile...but fact! That you cannot accept it is on you...becuase your view of eschatology ignores HOW scripture speaks of these things. As I said above, I say again research the term "the day of the Lord"...see what is happening in each case.

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Yeah right, because of my escatological views I can't accept your false teaching that the Day of the Lord has already come.

This again comes from your "eschatalogical view"...a view that ignores the symbolism of scripture, particularly in Revelation, and therefore misses the point of what's really happening.

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And of course your esachatological view can't be wrong, right?

Think about it. What reason would Christians have to hate Israel when the offer of salvation is to EVERYONE? Once again this is a weak argument and thrusted upon those who say that it's not about Israel...but it's about the "Israel of God" which is all believers. You have been taught to ignore passages that are clearly saying Israel is a spiritual people of God since the cross...and therefore because of that fact, they want to say we who believe that... hate Israel. Nothing is further from the truth, especially when God commands us to love everyone. As I said it's a weak argument, and it's a sad one.

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Show me one scripture which teaches that the church of God is Israel. Go right ahead, you obviously state this as if you can't possibly be wrong so show us all from scripture where Israel is the church, and then explain the mystery pertaining to Israel with respect to their being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I'll stand with Jesus. He sent the apostles to THE WORLD starting at Jerusalem. Try reading Matthew 28:18-20. It clearly tells you the gospel is to all, not just Israel...so who needs to hate Israel?

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If you stand with Jesus then you'll certainly acknowledge the prophetic truth concerning Israel and their deliverence in the time of the end.

Or just keep telling yourself that the Day of the Lord is already past as you do now.

Old Timer said:

One of the most spectacular events which will take place in that last day is this..

The nation of Israel shall be delivered..

Not destroyed, but rather delivered.. taken through the most unimaginable time that this world will ever know.

What strikes me as rather amazing (and yet it shouldn't be) is that huge numbers of Christians are being indoctrinated into the exact opposite.

That the destruction of Jerusalem was the time of the end..

Pretty soon it will most likely be outrageous to believe what the bible actually teaches, especially with respect to its prophetic truth concerning Israel.

Which happens to be the very foundation of the church of God, along with the twelve Jewish Apostles of the Lamb.. And of course the only Apostle to the Gentiles, The Apostle Paul.

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Old Timer,
I appreciate your posts, but Paul was never the only "apostle to the Gentiles", but rather one, and only one, of many called after the twelve eye witnesses.

Barnabas, being one of the 70 disciples was an eye witness to the Life and teaching of Christ, but he was not elected to fill Judas' office as Mathias was elected, to be one of the twelve, who are, with the prophets, the foundation of the Church with Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone.


The calling of apostle is only one of many -and the first named- callings the Holy Spirit elects persons for the office of, for this still continuing Church age.
1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Apostles are still set in the Church, as the other callings for the Church are still set in and operating in the living Church of Jesus Christ.
Apostles, by the authority of the Holy Spirit, do signs and wonders to confirm the Gospel of Christ which they are called to preach.

2Cr 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.


Barnabas is called an apostle, in the Word, as Paul and silas and Timothy are, also, and even women are called as apostles of Jesus Christ as we see in the Word, for Andronicus was an apostle as his [wife] Junia was also, and they were before Paul, as Paul said.

What is your real statement of faith?

yeshuasavedme said:

Old Timer,
I appreciate your posts, but Paul was never the only "apostle to the Gentiles", but rather one, and only one, of many called after the twelve eye witnesses.

Barnabas, being one of the 70 disciples was an eye witness to the Life and teaching of Christ, but he was not elected to fill Judas' office as Mathias was elected, to be one of the twelve, who are, with the prophets, the foundation of the Church with Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone.


The calling of apostle is only one of many -and the first named- callings the Holy Spirit elects persons for the office of, for this still continuing Church age.
1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Apostles are still set in the Church, as the other callings for the Church are still set in and operating in the living Church of Jesus Christ.
Apostles, by the authority of the Holy Spirit, do signs and wonders to confirm the Gospel of Christ which they are called to preach.

2Cr 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.


Barnabas is called an apostle, in the Word, as Paul and silas and Timothy are, also, and even women are called as apostles of Jesus Christ as we see in the Word, for Andronicus was an apostle as his [wife] Junia was also, and they were before Paul, as Paul said.

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First of all, thank you and please by all means correct anything that you might think is incorrect. It's clearly better for the body when correction is welcomed rather than frowned upon as so many today seem to be beyond correction.

Anyway, I had always for some reason thought that there was only one Apostle to the Gentiles.

It's interesting to me that only the twelve Apostles of the Lamb are detailed in Revelation. Would you expouund upon that as to why that is when there are other Apostles which are not included in the twelve?

coraline said:

I invite you all to join me at Baptistboard.com

They welcome full preterism there.

Praise God.

Now that's a statement of FAITH. Belief in Jesus Christ only!

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If they welcome preterism then they will most likely have issues with any truth presented.

But you have a good time talking about how the glorious gospel of Christ is all summed up in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Old Timer said:

Are you confused? You just said that Rev 20 is future and then say that it began at the resurrection of Christ?

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No I'm not. Understand I said the reign of Christ began at the resurrection. It will continue until He judges the world in righteousness. Or have you never read 1 Corinthians 15:20-28?

Old Timer said:

Regardless, we just went over Matthew 25 which shows the Lord sitting upon the throne of His glory when He comes in His glory. This is when the Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

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Sure did, and it's a big difference from fleeing Jerusalem in Matthew 24...and the judgment of Matthew 25.

Old Timer said:

Nowhere does scripture teach that the there is more than one Day of the Lord, every instance in scripture is future, even in the OT. This is why the Apostle to the Gentiles warns believers of those who say exactly what you're saying.. that it's past already.

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Let's just put that away right now:

*Isaiah 13:4 - Wail, for the day of the Lord is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. (that occurred against Babylon)

*Ezekiel 13:5 - You have not gone up into the breaches, nor did you build the wall around the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the Lord. (That occurred against Israel)

*Joel 1:15 - Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty. (That occurred against Judah)

Do you need more? In each case it's judgment...and each is called a "day of the Lord...

Old Timer said:

Once again, it's a fairly easy matter to trust in the living and powerful word of God rather than what men say.

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As if *men* are not saying your position? Let's be real here.

Old Timer said:

Yeah right, because of my escatological views I can't accept your false teaching that the Day of the Lord has already come.

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Hey...that's on you. As the scripture says "each person will have their praise of God" for how they believed His word.

Old Timer said:

And of course your esachatological view can't be wrong, right?

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I've already stated my position isn't 100%...but I know your position is far behind that...because you ignore fulfilled historical prophecy.

Old Timer said:

Show me one scripture which teaches that the church of God is Israel. Go right ahead, you obviously state this as if you can't possibly be wrong so show us all from scripture where Israel is the church, and then explain the mystery pertaining to Israel with respect to their being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

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Galatians 6:14-16:
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

People love to say "That's the only place Paul uses the term"...but they can never explain why Paul said "the Israel of God" instead of just saying "Israel".

Old Timer said:

If you stand with Jesus then you'll certainly acknowledge the prophetic truth concerning Israel and their deliverence in the time of the end.

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I do...the question is do you? Israel is not the land after the cross, it is every believer. Jesus alluded to this is John 10:14-16 when he said to the Pharisees:
14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Do you notice Jesus makes both flocks ONE...how are they different after they become ONE?

Not only that, Paul makes it emphatic in Ephesians 2:11-22, where He makes it real clear Jews and Gentiles believers are FELLOW CITIZENS". All you have to do is read what the scriptures say.

Old Timer said:

Or just keep telling yourself that the Day of the Lord is already past as you do now.

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Just keep misreading what I say. Go back up in this post and see how the "the day of the Lord" occurred in 3 instances of scripture. What you keep missing is when Christ comes this time it will be "the LAST day of the Lord" (which is ALWAYS a day of judgment. Christ and the Fathers salvation plan will be done...Matthew 25!

ebedmelech said:

No I'm not. Understand I said the reign of Christ began at the resurrection. It will continue until He judges the world in righteousness. Or have you never read 1 Corinthians 15:20-28?

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Strange, the bible I read says that we see not yet all things put under Him. Not all of us see the same though. We also know that He is waiting til His enemies are made His footstool.

Sure did, and it's a big difference from fleeing Jerusalem in Matthew 24...and the judgment of Matthew 25.

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They both describe the coming of Christ which hasn't happened yet, although feel free to continue to believe that it's all in the past.

Let's just put that away right now:

*Isaiah 13:4 - Wail, for the day of the Lord is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. (that occurred against Babylon)

*Ezekiel 13:5 - You have not gone up into the breaches, nor did you build the wall around the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the Lord. (That occurred against Israel)

*Joel 1:15 - Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, And it will come as destruction from the Almighty. (That occurred against Judah)

Do you need more? In each case it's judgment...and each is called a "day of the Lord...

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Yes, it's certainly near... as far as the Lord is concerned, but it hasn't happened yet. Once again, believe as you will.

As if *men* are not saying your position? Let's be real here.

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I'm not saying the Day of the Lord has happened, that would be you.

Hey...that's on you. As the scripture says "each person will have their praise of God" for how they believed His word.

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Obviously you're more praiseworthy than most.

I've already stated my position isn't 100%...but I know your position is far behind that...because you ignore fulfilled historical prophecy.

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You don't know but you do... that pretty much sums up your position.

Believe as you will, although if you'd like to post in this thread then please try to keep it aligned with that coming Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.

This will also happen in that (last) Day.. the destruction of the man of sin by the brightness of the Lord's coming, in the Day of Christ.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

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Here's another wondrous portion of scripture which many seem to take issue with.. not sure why?

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. but one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

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This will certainly come to pass when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

Truth doesn't matter much anymore now does it.. when the word of God speaks of the world to come it will surely be twisted into the world which now is... because let's face it.. the last thing in the world which the deceiver wants any person to beleive is that it's coming.

Old Timer said:

Strange, the bible I read says that we see not yet all things put under Him. Not all of us see the same though. We also know that He is waiting til His enemies are made His footstool.

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Are you following what "yet" means though...because try Ephesians 1:22, 23:
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Try also Philippians 2:9, 10:
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now the other point that really puts a dagger in your erroneous thinking, is in EVERY ENCOUNTER between Christ and Satan in the gospels...WHO WON?

Need I say more?

Old Timer said:

They both describe the coming of Christ which hasn't happened yet, although feel free to continue to believe that it's all in the past.

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This is exactly what I mean when I say you ignore history.

*Isaiah 13 clearly says it's about Babylon...it even says God will use the Medes to do this...and in Daniel 5 we see God overthrow Belshazzer King of Babylon by Darius the Mede...yet you say it's future...WOW!

*In Ezekiel 13 we see this is against the false prophets OF ISRAEL so this doesn't refer to the future because in Ezekiel 14 the elders of Israel come to Ezekiel...

*In Joel 1 He is speaking to the "elders and inhabitants of the land"...he then goes on to describe the Old Covenant requirements God is commanding them to return to...and it goes on to Joel 2, which prophesies Christ.

You're flat ignoring prophetic fulfillemnt.

Old Timer said:

Yes, it's certainly near... as far as the Lord is concerned, but it hasn't happened yet. Once again, believe as you will.

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Like I said...When Jesus comes, it will be THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD.

Old Timer said:

I'm not saying the Day of the Lord has happened, that would be you.

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I get what you're saying...I simply call it "THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD".

Old Timer said:

Obviously you're more praiseworthy than most.

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I don't look for anyone's praise but the Lord's.

Old Timer said:

You don't know but you do... that pretty much sums up your position.

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As you do your's. I'll stand on what I say..and guess what...time will tell.

Old Timer said:

Believe as you will, although if you'd like to post in this thread then please try to keep it aligned with that coming Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.

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I do...it's just the *LAST* "day of the Lord"...and as I've proven there have been many..but after this one there will be no more. Comprehend what I say at least...even if you disagree.

ebedmelech said:

Are you following what "yet" means though...because try Ephesians 1:22, 23:

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Yes, I get it... for you 'not yet' means the exact opposite. Funny how that works, the truth is completely turned around. Now who would want that?

When the word of God says that NOW we see NOT YET all things put under Him... it actually means that all things are already put under him.

Got it.

I do...it's just the *LAST* "day of the Lord"...and as I've proven there have been many..but after this one there will be no more. Comprehend what I say at least...even if you disagree.

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Great, it's the last day of the Lord.

I understand, your comments are not complicated at all, they're simply not aligned with scripture.

If you'd like to believe that there are many Days of the Lord then go ahead. Maybe you believe that there are many Lords also, maybe there are all kinds of the Day of Jesus Christ..

How many Days of Christ have there been?

Since we have some here who preach that there are many days of the Lord, most likely they also believe that there are many days of Jesus Christ.. that would make sense.. Jesus is Lord right?