Catholicism

Might be best to start this thread over again.

A good chance to clarify your questions and ask some more specific ones anyways. Thats my opinion, I probably won't read this thread anymore because he hasn't really had much of anything to do with Messianic Judaism.

Today at 04:01 AM JesusServant said this in Post #50 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650013#post650013)

It gets so old hearing people tell us (non Catholics of any sort) that we do not accept the church that Christ started.  The Church that Christ left us is people.  It is not a building.  It is not an organization.  It is not a debate or parsing Greek and Hebrew words. 

Guess what the Church is?  It is YOU, it is me and it is everyone that God's Spirit dwells in and is a part of God's family!  Your body is to be God's temple on earth now and He no longer lives in a building like in the old covenant where He was only visited by priests in the Holiest of Holies (center of the temple).  Now we have complete communion and fellowship in Spirit with our God and it is awesome!

Some people sound as if God died and left behind a great organization/legacy and we need to join it or suffer His wrath and it frustrates me.  He is alive and well and He lives in people today.  People still receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the fruits are the most important part of it all.

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Well, I wasn't gonna do this, but I can't resist. I at least have to say this.. Christ does indeed dwell in each of us, but the church is indeed a visible organization with real authority. In fact, Jesus himself differentiates between the general body of believers and the church in matters of authority. Perhaps most vividly and clearly in Mt:18:15-18

15 ¶ But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Notice that in this case, you are to gather one or two more, and IF HE WILL NOT HEAR THEM, TELL THE CHURCH. Further, Jesus instructs that if he will not hear the CHURCH, he is to be dismissed. By your estimation, Jesus was being redundant by first saying to gather 2 or 3 (for they are indeed the church as well as "the church").
What's really such a shame, is that I don't debate because I feel the need to prove my correctness to you. Simple history indicates that the church is true. It's really for your own good. But now I guess I see the meaning of Jesus' discourse about a physician coming for the sick and not for the well. You are obviously well and not in need of the church's guidance... Good for you! I'll add you to my intentions when I say my next rosary ...
God bless..

I see it the other way; I see the "two or three" followed by "the church" as indicating that a larger body of believers has *greater* authority. Thus, "all the Catholics put together" have a great deal of authority, but "all the Catholics and also the Methodists" have more, and "all the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists" more still.

Today at 05:26 AM seebs said this in Post #54 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650181#post650181)

I see it the other way; I see the "two or three" followed by "the church" as indicating that a larger body of believers has *greater* authority. Thus, "all the Catholics put together" have a great deal of authority, but "all the Catholics and also the Methodists" have more, and "all the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists" more still.

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Well how can I argue with that? Especially since all these groups all have conflicting beliefs as to just what sin is in the first place.. I didn;t even quote Mt:16:17-19

17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Here you cannot argue the "democratic" view of Jesus' words. He is clearly speaking to only Peter who happens to be the first pope. In fact, in the books of Acts, his authority is shown again and again. The church is so visible in the Epistles and Acts, that you almost have to ignore these books to believe that the church was EVER a democracy...

I also want to apologize to the people who started this thread for saying the word protestant and starting this fiasco. I promise not to argue any further on this topic here...

I think I'll apologize, too, for bringing this off-topic. AB, I may not be convinced, but I think you argue your case well. Thanks for a polite discussion, and perhaps we should pursue this in another forum?

Talmid,
You seem to be knowledgeable. Perhaps you can answer my earlier question...
I do wonder now though, how messianic judiasm differs from christian protestantism besides the acceptance of the new testament. I also would like to know if messianic judiasm follows the same de-centralized hierarchical model of government like traditional post-Jerusalem Judiasm. If not, then who is the authority who determines what is acceptable teaching and what is heretical?

Yesterday at 11:22 PM A_B_liever said this in Post #53

Well, I wasn't gonna do this, but I can't resist. I at least have to say this.. Christ does indeed dwell in each of us, but the church is indeed a visible organization with real authority. In fact, Jesus himself differentiates between the general body of believers and the church in matters of authority. Perhaps most vividly and clearly in Mt:18:15-18

15 ¶ But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Notice that in this case, you are to gather one or two more, and IF HE WILL NOT HEAR THEM, TELL THE CHURCH. Further, Jesus instructs that if he will not hear the CHURCH, he is to be dismissed. By your estimation, Jesus was being redundant by first saying to gather 2 or 3 (for they are indeed the church as well as "the church").
What's really such a shame, is that I don't debate because I feel the need to prove my correctness to you. Simple history indicates that the church is true. It's really for your own good. But now I guess I see the meaning of Jesus' discourse about a physician coming for the sick and not for the well. You are obviously well and not in need of the church's guidance... Good for you! I'll add you to my intentions when I say my next rosary ...
God bless..

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Do not pray for me in pity or contempt.  That is a terrible thing to do in my opinion. 

Anyways, there is the church and then there's the Church.  I'm not going to go back and forth yet again.  I've given a side and that's good enough for the readers.  I'll just leave you with this...

(1 Corinthians 6:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

(1 Corinthians 6:2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

(1 Corinthians 6:3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

(1 Corinthians 6:4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Hmmm.  Set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.  Seems as if I've never heard of this practice in the Catholic church.  I thought matters were decided by elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy?

Yesterday at 01:01 PM JesusServant said this in Post #58 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650542#post650542)

Do not pray for me in pity or contempt.  That is a terrible thing to do in my opinion. 

Anyways, there is the church and then there's the Church.  I'm not going to go back and forth yet again.  I've given a side and that's good enough for the readers.  I'll just leave you with this...

(1 Corinthians 6:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

(1 Corinthians 6:2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

(1 Corinthians 6:3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

(1 Corinthians 6:4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Hmmm.  Set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.  Seems as if I've never heard of this practice in the Catholic church.  I thought matters were decided by elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy?

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Well, I guess since the people who could answer my question about Messianic Judiasm are IGNORING ME , I'll go ahead and engage you on your terms....

First of all, let me repost the verses you posted but in context.

1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to be judged before the unjust: and not before the saints?
2 Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world?
4 If therefore you have judgments of things pertaining to this world, set them to judge who are the most despised in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you any one wise man that is able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother: and that before unbelievers.
7 Already indeed there is plainly a fault among you, that you have law suits one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 But you do wrong and defraud: and that to your brethren.

Now, First of all, let's understand what we're reading. The Apostle Paul (a bishop) is writing a letter to the clergy (church officials) of the church he founded in Corinth. As I stated earlier to seebs, the epistles and Acts really demonstrate the hierarchy and functions of the church.
Moving on, as we see here, Paul is reprimanding the Corinthian clergy members for bringing internal disputes to civil "authorities". (verse 6) If you read verse 2 carefully, you see that he is reminding them of their saintly calling. By indicating that they will judge the world (as saints), he scolds them for not judging the small matters among themselves. (expanded upon in verse 3). Now that we have the correct context, we can better understand verse 4 which your argument hangs on. By choosing as judge "he who is most despised" they are guaranteed impartiality. The "judge" is universally disliked and unlikely to be partial. He then continues and emplores them to avoid seeking vengeance in these matters in the first place. (verse 7) Hopefully now, these verses are clearer to you.
Additionally, you stated that you thought these matters were handled by "elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy". This is untrue. Non-Doctrinal disputes between clergy (which are virtually nonexistent) are not judged by the pope (or any other elected position)

As for the prayer thing, I do indeed pray for you and all who reject the church with pity and hope. Contempt is the last thing I would ever express.
My pity is because I recall Jesus words in Luke 10:16
"16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

My hope is because I remember Jesus words in John 13:20.
"20 Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me: and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Jesus in Luke 10:16 makes it clear, that the popular notion today that you can be a good "christian" without following the church, is not true. You can't hear Jesus without hearing those whom he sent. Likewise, you can't truly love jesus and despise those whom he sent. So yes, it remains my prayer that you and all who oppose the authority and teachings of the church will experience a softening of heart and explore with humility the church's precepts and come to full communion with Christ...

Today at 01:38 AM A_B_liever said this in Post #59

Well, I guess since the people who could answer my question about Messianic Judiasm are IGNORING ME , I'll go ahead and engage you on your terms....

First of all, let me repost the verses you posted but in context.

1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to be judged before the unjust: and not before the saints?
2 Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world?
4 If therefore you have judgments of things pertaining to this world, set them to judge who are the most despised in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you any one wise man that is able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother: and that before unbelievers.
7 Already indeed there is plainly a fault among you, that you have law suits one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 But you do wrong and defraud: and that to your brethren.

Now, First of all, let's understand what we're reading. The Apostle Paul (a bishop) is writing a letter to the clergy (church officials) of the church he founded in Corinth. As I stated earlier to seebs, the epistles and Acts really demonstrate the hierarchy and functions of the church.
Moving on, as we see here, Paul is reprimanding the Corinthian clergy members for bringing internal disputes to civil "authorities". (verse 6) If you read verse 2 carefully, you see that he is reminding them of their saintly calling. By indicating that they will judge the world (as saints), he scolds them for not judging the small matters among themselves. (expanded upon in verse 3). Now that we have the correct context, we can better understand verse 4 which your argument hangs on. By choosing as judge "he who is most despised" they are guaranteed impartiality. The "judge" is universally disliked and unlikely to be partial. He then continues and emplores them to avoid seeking vengeance in these matters in the first place. (verse 7) Hopefully now, these verses are clearer to you.
Additionally, you stated that you thought these matters were handled by "elected officals at the high end of the hierarchy". This is untrue. Non-Doctrinal disputes between clergy (which are virtually nonexistent) are not judged by the pope (or any other elected position)

As for the prayer thing, I do indeed pray for you and all who reject the church with pity and hope. Contempt is the last thing I would ever express.
My pity is because I recall Jesus words in Luke 10:16
"16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

My hope is because I remember Jesus words in John 13:20.
"20 Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me: and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Jesus in Luke 10:16 makes it clear, that the popular notion today that you can be a good "christian" without following the church, is not true. You can't hear Jesus without hearing those whom he sent. Likewise, you can't truly love jesus and despise those whom he sent. So yes, it remains my prayer that you and all who oppose the authority and teachings of the church will experience a softening of heart and explore with humility the church's precepts and come to full communion with Christ...

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Thank you for correcting me.  I am always wrong on every point I have ever made or will make.  I am sorry I wasted your time.

Now as P4I said, lets get back to the original topic.

[mod hat on]


If this discussion cannot be conducted in a civilized, mature and loving way, it will be closed for a specific, if not permanent, amount of time and a possible official warning given.

Temper the comments, and remember Who it is you're really serving. 

Thank you.

[mod hat off]

Yesterday at 09:16 PM Pray4Isrel said this in Post #62 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=653467#post653467)

You are not actually taking it upon yourself to judge whether anyone here is "opposing the authority and teachings of the church", are you?

I'll kindly ask you to refrain from your above comments.  This is an "unofficial" reminder.

Catholic vs. Protestant discussions have a seperate forum. 

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Actually, I (again) apologize for engaging in a scriptural exchange over protestantism. However, if you go back a page or two, I have asked twice some specific questions about messianic Judiasm. I was hoping that you or talmid would be able to answer my questions, However, the only response I got was from the protestant guy attacking me. At any rate, It is not my intention to offend anyone here (or anywhere for that matter). I sincerely regret offending anyone who might have been reading my explanation of new Testament scripture. At any rate, I'll pose my original question yet again and hopefully someone with some insight into messianic Judiasm will be able to answer my humble question. thank you...

I do wonder now though, how messianic judiasm differs from christian protestantism besides the acceptance of the new testament. I also would like to know if messianic judiasm follows the same de-centralized hierarchical model of government like traditional post-Jerusalem Judiasm. If not, then who is the authority who determines what is acceptable teaching and what is heretical?

Funny how people overlook what I said early on in this thread . . . . I guess some people would rather just argue rather than discuss.

I would like to know the Messianic answer to A_B_liever's question also?

Sorry A_B, I had given up no this thread and stopped paying attention to it.

No, Messianic Jews do not have a central authority. Throughout the centuries of persecution primarily by Gentile Christians and Orthodox Jews most congregations do not have a long history, but rather get scattered and new ones formed by members in other places. The Torch of faith has been passed on, but the buildings, congregations, and organizations have never had a chance to remain the same.

After the Bible (the WHOLE bible) the #1 deciding factor in Messianic Judaism I would have to say is tradition. Most importantly the traditions of early Messianic Jews. Jewish tradition is also taken into account though and what is consider appropriate in a Messianic setting is often kept and deemed unchangable.

For the most part what is "heretical" Vs. "Orthodox" is pretty well grounded and there is not much need for those types of discussions as most of the important ones were held about 1900 years ago. You will however find a ton of theological disagreements from congregation to congregation. Of course thats just normal Jewish fair anyways. Its an old saying that "Where you find two Jews, you'll find three opinions!". I think it is even more true of Messianic Jews than the Orthodox Jews that saying originally referred to. The truth is that so long as we hold true the core Orthodox beliefs and live our faith in the Messiah I don't think the other minor differences matter.

I hope that answers your question.

Peace.