Minimum Wage

USCGrad90 · Feb 19, 2014

I am curious as to what people think about this. The report by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says rasing minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.10 per hour could result in the loss of 500,000 jobs. The White House spin says no jobs lost and others say that despite potential losses, the majority of people affected will benefit.

I really don't know much about the CBO, but to me it makes sense that some jobs would need to be cut by companies to offset the increases in wages.

In my case, my 16-year old son has talked to someone about a part-time job - which could cancelled if the wage hike goes through. I am a salaried professional, so my wages would not change, and my wife is a part time employee making more than the $10.10 - so her income would not be affected.

The primary effect I can foresee for me is an increase in costs for gas and other goods and services due to the increased wages.

So does the net result end up in some people being paid more, but ultimately everyone having higher living costs to cover the added wage costs?

Am I missing something on this or is my logic too simple???

stamperben · Feb 19, 2014

More money in the hands of more workers equals more money being spent in the economy. That will mean an economy that can grow and that in turn will produce more jobs. It will also lessen the amount of our tax dollars being spent for safety net programs.

Yes, it is a rather simple prospect.

Ishraqiyun · Feb 19, 2014

Other studies say just the opposite:

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/166-08.pdf
http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/reanal-ff-nj.pdf
http://www.francescobilli.it/rcea/RePEc/pdf/wp02_08.pdf
http://www.iza.org/conference_files/EMW2009/addison_j44.pdf

Here is a good overview of some of the information:
The Facts on Raising the Minimum Wage When Unemployment Is High | Center for American Progress Action Fund

ananda · Feb 19, 2014

Increased "minimum wage" means:

- The least skilled will get priced out of the market (like your son);
- The moderately skilled will have to do more work for less, in order to keep their existing jobs;
- The highest skilled workers will face greater competition;
- Higher forced wages across the board promotes the creation of newer technology to control costs, thus in turn, putting more people out of work (for example, the recently created burger making machine) ... or ...
- Higher forced wages promotes globalism; work is transferred out of the country; lower cost workers are hired outside the country (think India, China, Mexico, etc.), putting more of our own people out of work (how can a $10/hr machinist compete with a $1/hr machinist in India?);
- Those in power (CEOs, politicians etc.) will reap the benefits (harder worker peasants, for no change in costs - from their perspective).

"Increased Minimum Wage" = increased globalism, one-world religion, one-world government, communism, socialism, fascism, selfishness, greediness, laziness, etc. all rolled into a pretty package which appeals to the least intelligent and skilled of our population. It's too bad that the vast majority of people can't see past their most superficial (and erroneous) idea that "higher minimum wages = more money for everyone". If this case was true, then why not raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000,000/hr for everyone? Everyone will become rich overnight ... right?

stamperben · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
Increased "minimum wage" means:

- The least skilled will get priced out of the market (like your son);
- The moderately skilled will have to do more work for less, in order to keep their existing jobs;
- The highest skilled workers will face greater competition;
- Higher forced wages across the board promotes the creation of newer technology to control costs, thus in turn, putting more people out of work (for example, the recently created burger making machine) ... or ...
- Higher forced wages promotes globalism; work is transferred out of the country; lower cost workers are hired outside the country (think India, China, Mexico, etc.), putting more of our own people out of work (how can a $10/hr machinist compete with a $1/hr machinist in India?);
- Those in power (CEOs, politicians etc.) will reap the benefits (harder worker peasants, for no change in costs - from their perspective).

"Increased Minimum Wage" = increased globalism, one-world religion, one-world government, communism, socialism, fascism, selfishness, greediness, laziness, etc. all rolled into a pretty package which appeals to the least intelligent and skilled of our population. It's too bad that the vast majority of people can't see past their most superficial (and erroneous) idea that "higher minimum wages = more money for everyone". If this case was true, then why not raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000,000/hr for everyone? Everyone will become rich overnight ... right?

Wow... This has happened every time the minimum wage has been raised? Why wasn't I informed? :doh:

ananda · Feb 19, 2014

stamperben said:
Wow... This has happened every time the minimum wage has been raised? Why wasn't I informed?

I find my conclusions to be self-evident.

You did not address my obvious question: What would happen if the minimum wage is raised to $1billion/hour for all Americans? The answer to this question should make this issue and its results plain and clear.

cow451 · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
"Increased Minimum Wage" = increased globalism, one-world religion, one-world government, communism, socialism, fascism, selfishness, greediness, laziness, etc. all rolled into a pretty package which appeals to the least intelligent and skilled of our population. It's too bad that the vast majority of people can't see past their most superficial (and erroneous) idea that "higher minimum wages = more money for everyone". If this case was true, then why not raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000,000/hr for everyone? Everyone will become rich overnight ... right?

You were making a readable argument.... then you went totally off the rails. Maybe your aluminum hat sprang a leak.

stamperben · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
I find my conclusions to be self-evident.

You did not address my obvious question: What would happen if the minimum wage is raised to $1billion/hour for all Americans? The answer to this question should make this issue and its results plain and clear.

It is not answered because it is a stupid question. We're talking about $10.10.

cow451 · Feb 19, 2014

I do think a raise is due, but I can see that large a jump being hard to sell.

Those that oppose raising the wage might consider that many low wage employers are subsidized by Food Stamps, Section 8 and other corporate welfare.

GoldenBoy89 · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
Increased "minimum wage" means:

- The least skilled will get priced out of the market (like your son);
- The moderately skilled will have to do more work for less, in order to keep their existing jobs;
- The highest skilled workers will face greater competition;
- Higher forced wages across the board promotes the creation of newer technology to control costs, thus in turn, putting more people out of work (for example, the recently created burger making machine) ... or ...
- Higher forced wages promotes globalism; work is transferred out of the country; lower cost workers are hired outside the country (think India, China, Mexico, etc.), putting more of our own people out of work (how can a $10/hr machinist compete with a $1/hr machinist in India?);
- Those in power (CEOs, politicians etc.) will reap the benefits (harder worker peasants, for no change in costs - from their perspective).

"Increased Minimum Wage" = increased globalism, one-world religion, one-world government, communism, socialism, fascism, selfishness, greediness, laziness, etc. all rolled into a pretty package which appeals to the least intelligent and skilled of our population. It's too bad that the vast majority of people can't see past their most superficial (and erroneous) idea that "higher minimum wages = more money for everyone". If this case was true, then why not raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000,000/hr for everyone? Everyone will become rich overnight ... right?

How does a 'one world government" fit into this?
And
How does increasing minimum wage increase greed, selfishness, fascism and lead to a one-world government?

I really want to see how you connect these seemingly disparate ideas.

stamperben · Feb 19, 2014

Crudo89 said:
How does a 'one world government" fit into this?
And
How does increasing minimum wage increase greed, selfishness, fascism and lead to a one-world government?

I really want to see how you connect these seemingly disparate ideas.

you mean you hadn't seen it in the past either?!

oh. The answer is now obvious. We're not watching Faux News. :doh:

ananda · Feb 19, 2014

cow451 said:
You were making a readable argument.... then you went totally off the rails. Maybe your aluminum hat sprang a leak.

I think my conclusion is also reasonable, when taken to its furthest extreme (my point).

ananda · Feb 19, 2014

stamperben said:
It is not answered because it is a stupid question. We're talking about $10.10.

How is it a stupid question?

$1 billion is an arbitrary number, and has no meaning outside of economics, just like $10.10.

I emphasized $1 billion/hr as an easy way to clearly see the results of forcing a mandatory minimum wage.

kermit · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
I find my conclusions to be self-evident.

Empirical and historical evidence often contradict things that are self-evident.

You did not address my obvious question: What would happen if the minimum wage is raised to $1billion/hour for all Americans? The answer to this question should make this issue and its results plain and clear.

Obviously too high a minimum wage would hurts the economy. But likewise too low of one hurts it too (as history shows). Please present some evidence that the proposed increase is high enough to hurt the economy.

cow451 · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
I think my conclusion is also reasonable, when taken to its furthest extreme (my point).

There is no such thing as a reasonable Strawman.

Oafman · Feb 19, 2014

Before we implemented the minimum wage in Britain, we had years (literally) of being told how many jobs would be lost.

And of course, it didn't happen.

Then every time a government suggests raising it, we get told how many jobs will be lost. And it never happens.

History tells us that the CBO are wrong. Though admittedly that is quite a drastic raise being tabled.

stamperben · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
How is it a stupid question?

$1 billion is an arbitrary number, and has no meaning outside of economics, just like $10.10.

I emphasized $1 billion/hr as an easy way to clearly see the results of forcing a mandatory minimum wage.

$10.10 raises the price of your Happy Meal by a few pennies. $1 billion does what? For myself, I am more than willing to pay a few pennies more to enable quite a few minimum wage earners to get off food stamps and the like and to contribute to the health of our economy. That you apparently don't give a hoot about your fellow man through their economic well being speaks volumes.

kermit · Feb 19, 2014

netzarim said:
I think my conclusion is also reasonable, when taken to its furthest extreme (my point).

You argument is only reasonable if there is a direct correlation between the minimum wage and the economuy along the entire curve... which you haven't shown.

ananda · Feb 19, 2014

Crudo89 said:
How does a 'one world government" fit into this?
And
How does increasing minimum wage increase greed, selfishness, fascism and lead to a one-world government?

I really want to see how you connect these seemingly disparate ideas.

Most of mankind is driven by an innate instinctual greed (the desire to want more). Combine that with selfishness (the desire to work less), man is driven to create technology/laws/forced minimum wage.

Technology is a form of leverage - machines used to get more while doing less. How? By negating the need for the lowest skilled "workers". Laws are also a form of leverage - how? Force used to shift the burden from one group of politically-connected people to another group of less-connected persons. "Minimum wage" (a law) is also another term for greed and selfishness. The moderately-skilled workers want more for less effort. By demanding an increase in minimum wage, they shift the burden onto the lowest of the low (to those whose skills merits less than minimum wage).

The rift between the rulers, the skilled workers, and the non-skilled peasants grows as a result. Money and power flows to the rulers, and is taken away from the workers and peasants. Globalisation occurs, off-shoring business to other countries with lower wages. Product standardisation between countries are then needed, required, and demanded, leading to one-world governments - in practice.

But the least intelligent of the population (peasants and workers) don't generally see this, and instead only focus on their immediate rewards, like animals, who in turn demand more government control (e.g. communism, socialism, fascism), not knowing that they are only hurting themselves in the long run.

USCGrad90 · Feb 19, 2014

stamperben said:
More money in the hands of more workers equals more money being spent in the economy. That will mean an economy that can grow and that in turn will produce more jobs. It will also lessen the amount of our tax dollars being spent for safety net programs.

Yes, it is a rather simple prospect.

So is there tax relief for employers forced to pay higher wages?
If employers cost are increased, doesn't that automatically translate to higher product and service costs?
Do employers also eliminate what they consider as nonessential workers to minimize costs?

From my personal example, I cited how I thought it would effect me. (No extra money in my pocket, potential for paying more for stuff, and my son not bringing in extra income.)
I don't understand how this equates to most normal people having more disposable income.

Minimum Wage

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Try telling that to these bog brained murphys

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