The Last Day

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coraline said in post 215:

In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people.

Just as the heaven and earth which "were of old" (2 Peter 3:5-6) were the literal first "heaven" (the sky/atmosphere, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20), and the literal "earth" (the dry land) which God created in Genesis 1:7-10, and which "perished" in Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6, Genesis 6:13-21), so the heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will perish in the future by fire instead of flood (2 Peter 3:7-12), are the earth's present atmosphere and surface. And so the new heaven and earth, which the church is still waiting for (2 Peter 3:13) -- because the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1) won't be made until after the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 20 are over -- will be a new atmosphere and surface for the earth.

That is, the "old" heaven and earth perished at the time of Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6), which was over 1,000 years before the Old Covenant Mosaic law was established in Exodus. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments was abolished the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). Matthew 5:18 refers to the literal heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which are going to be literally burned up in our future (2 Peter 3:7-12).

Matthew 5:18 doesn't mean that heaven and earth have to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments can be abolished, but that Jesus had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53), before he could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).
 
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parousia70

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Just as the heaven and earth which "were of old" (2 Peter 3:5-6) were the literal first "heaven" (the sky/atmosphere, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20), and the literal "earth" (the dry land) which God created in Genesis 1:7-10, and which "perished" in Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6, Genesis 6:13-21), so the heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will perish in the future by fire instead of flood (2 Peter 3:7-12), are the earth's present atmosphere and surface. And so the new heaven and earth, which the church is still waiting for (2 Peter 3:13) -- because the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1) won't be made until after the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 20 are over -- will be a new atmosphere and surface for the earth.

2 things here:
1)
The Material makeup of the Earths surface and atmosphere did not change after the Flood. They were the same as before.

and B)
What of Isaiah 51:16?
"And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

Clearly, without question, the creation of Covenant Israel constituted the creation of a type of "heaven and earth", in God's view, since material creation existed long before the Mosaic Covenant, yet God calls the establishment of that Covenant "the Planting of heaven and laying the foundation of Earth"

Israel is a type of "heaven and Earth"... we see this played out elsewhere in scripture as well:

In Leviticus 26:14-20, God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19:
"and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass."



Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "your heaven" and "your earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth."




Who is God speaking to in Isaiah 1:1-2, "…Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth." The physical creation? No, he is speaking to Israel. And who is the witness in Deuteronomy 4:26, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day"? Physical creation or Old Covenant Israel?



This idea is seen more clearly as we look at other passages where mention is made of the destruction of a state and government using language which seems to set forth the end of the world, as the collapse of heaven and earth. In Isaiah 13:1-13, this is not an oracle against the universe or world, but against the nation of Babylon. Notice verse 13, "Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place."



Now remember, he is speaking about the destruction of Babylon, but it sounds like world wide destruction. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon. If you were a Babylonian and Babylon was destroyed would it seem like the world was destroyed? Yes! Your world would be destroyed.



This is an historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon (Isaiah 13:17), the Babylonian world came to an end. This destruction is said in verse 6 to be from the Almighty, and the Medes constitute the means that God uses to accomplish this task. The physical heaven and earth were still in tact, but for Babylon they had collapsed. This is apocalyptic language. This is the way the scripture discusses the fall of a nation. This is obviously figurative language.



In Isaiah 24-27 we see the invasion of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar. He carries them away to captivity. Notice the language that he uses in Isaiah 24:3-6 and Isaiah 24:19-20. What I want you to see in these verses is how God refers to Israel as the earth. He says the earth is "utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly...the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again" (Verses 1,3,4,19,20).



Notice how many times God referred to Israel as the "earth." This is apocalyptic language speaking of the destruction of the people of Israel.



In Isaiah 34:3-5, we have a description of the fall of Edom, notice the language that is used. "...and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment." This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally.




In Nahum 1:1-5, the subject of this judgment is Nineveh, not the physical world. "The burden of Nineveh...the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers...The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein." This is the way God describes the fall of a nation.


If this language describes the judgment of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe? It is only because we do not understand how the scripture uses this apocalyptic language.


A further proof that "heaven and earth" refers to the covenants are the following verses. Everyone agrees that Hebrews 8:13 is speaking of the change from the old covenant to the new covenant. Now, compare the wording of this verse with two others. The wording is almost identical, except the term "covenant" is replaced with the terms "heaven and earth".

Hebrews 8:13, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

Hebrews 1:10-11, "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;"

Isaiah 51:6, "Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment,"
Also, the term "heaven and earth" can be seen to refer to the religious and civil state of Israel in Revelation 12:1-5, which speaks about the birth of Jesus Christ in literal Israel.

Revelation 12:1-5: "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven (religious state of Israel); a woman (Mary)…and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (referring to the twelve tribes of Israel): And she being with child (Jesus) cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon…And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth (civil state of Israel): and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born (in Matthew 2:16, the civil government tried to slay baby Jesus). And she brought forth a man child (Jesus Christ), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne (the ascension in Acts 1:2)."
A good verse to see that the New Heaven and Earth refers to the New Jerusalem (implying the Old Heaven and Earth refers to the Old Jerusalem) is by comparing these two verses:

Isaiah 65:17, "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:"​
Now, just substitute the word "Jerusalem" where "heaven and earth" appear!!
Isaiah 65:18, "...for, behold, I create Jerusalem."​
Therefore, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 3:12; 21:2) is synonymous with the New Heaven and Earth!
 
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ebedmelech

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One last word on the preterists..

It's not so much that they are obsessed with AD70 as it is the fact that they're obsessed with the destruction of Jerusalem, which is the city of the great King.

The god of this present evil world is working diligently to wipe the nation of Israel off of the face of the earth and therefore prove God a liar through his prophetic word.

Ain't gonna happen.

Preterists insist that it already did happen.

The god of this present evil world is also working to convince the masses that the Day of the Lord already came a long time ago, once again, in AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem, the city of the great King.

The god of this world desires you to hate Israel and rejoice in its being destroyed in AD70, whereas the truth of the prophetic scriptures show that nation and city being delivered in the end, even taken through that dreadful time of hell on earth which shall come upon the whole world.

Satan wants nothing more for you to believe that it's a thing of the ancient past.

Who you going to listen to?

The prophetic scriptures could not be more precise and clear concerning the deliverance of Israel in the end, how that they're even protected from the Dragon cast down to the earth in that dreadful Day.

And most of Christendom is asleep as they have embraced the doctrines of devils concerning the end times.. things like amillenialism, preterism, all simply lies from the deceiver wanting you to believe firmly that it's all in past and that it can't possibly happen in the future.

Now I can't speak for you, although I can clearly see that Day approaching.

Stop listening to the nonsense of the deceiver who wants you to believe that it's all in the past... and that the scriptures can't possibly speak to the future of this planet.

/02
One word to futurists:

Galatians 4:25-28:
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.


When you read God's word for what it REALLY says...you get a clue. Jerusalem shifted to heaven with Christ. ALL BELIEVERS ARE A HOLY NATION!!!

So keep waiting on Jerusalem down here...but you're in for a BIG SURPRISE!!! :thumbsup:

It is you who listen to "nonsense"...thinking God is obligated to a covenant that is obsolete...thinking Jesus is coming down to rule for a thousand years when He is at the right hand of God right now. But there's no need to go around and around about this..."the day" will reveal it.

Just remember that God said "I will call them a people, who were not my people"...and why the NT forever calls the temple of God the church!

Keep thinking it's about a strip of Land called Israel and flreshly Jews, when Paul has clearly told you "He is a Jew who is one INWARDLY, and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In case you're wondering...that's salvation that does that! :thumbsup:
 
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iamlamad

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We got a new heaven and earth just as God predicted in Isaiah 65.

You need to understand that the phrase "heaven and earth" doesn't mean the literal heaven and earth of creation in Gen1:1.

READERS BEWARE!
Anyone who can change the meaning of the Word of God with a simple "you need to understand" is DANGEROUS.

God was not allowed to write of a literal 1000 years without these WORD CHANGERS saying it does not mean a literal 1000 years.

Now God is not allowed to write of a literal heaven (what we see when we look up at night) and a literal earth (what we walk on).

IS God allowed to tell us that our Salvation is my faith alone, and not be works, lest any man should boast?

Perhaps this "salvation" doesn't really mean to be saved from hell, for perhaps hell does not really exist. "You need to understand," when God speaks of hell, He is just talking about your bad days on earth.

Perhaps 1 John 1:9 is not for Christians, but for sinners. Perhaps we should be embarrassed to remind God of our sins.

You see, Readers, once someone begins to tear apart the TRUTH of the word of God by saying it really does not mean what it says, then the Word of God can mean ANYTHING. This is very dangerous!

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Let's look at the use of "heaven and earth" in Scripture and see if they have some other meaning besides the literal physical heavens and earth. If you want to know what a term means in the New Testament, you need to go back to the Old Testament and see what it meant there. If it was used a certain way in the Old Testament, wouldn't it make sense that Jesus and the New Testament writer would use those expressions in the same way? We must get our understanding of "heaven and earth" from the Old Testament:
Deuteronomy 31:30 (NKJV) Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song until they were ended: 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Who is God talking to here? In the song of Moses, God is speaking to Israel. He calls them, "O heavens," and, "O earth." He is clearly not speaking to the physical heavens and earth, but to Israel. Notice what he says to them in:

Deuteronomy 32:22 (NKJV) For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

God is not talking here about burning up the physical earth. God is using apocalyptic and symbolic language to warn Israel of judgement that He will bring upon them. When Israel is finally destroyed, it is as though heaven and earth are burned up.

In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;
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We don't even need to go to the Old Testament: we can find a meaning of "heavens" in the NEW:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So what is the meaning of heavens? It is WHAT WE SEE WHEN WE LOOK UP AT NIGHT.

Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Here "heavens" refers to WHERE GOD LIVES.


2 Peter 3:5-7


5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Here Peter reminds of that the earth of old was destroyed by water: NOAH'S flood. And the VERY SAME earth once destroyed by water will again be destroyed by fire. In this verse, of course if Peter is speaking of the literal earth - and he is - then he is speaking of a literal heaven...what we see if you look up at night. Now let's add verse 13:

13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


There can be no doubt, IN CONTEXT Peter is sill speaking of the NATURAL heavens and earth.



LAMAD
 
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bibletruth469

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coraline said:
Dispensationalists are entitled to an opinion. But what you wrote is so far from what "faith" means to me. One should never form their doctrine on 1) the parables alone and more importantly, 2) on obscure figurative language in Revelation. We look first and foremost at the clear and straightforward scriptures in order to have proper Biblical hermeneutics. Without the proper hermeneutic (system for Biblical interpretation) one has only an eisegesis ( a projection of their personal opinions) of any of the Text. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Let's look at your post realistically too. You opine that the "saints rule and reign in a millennium kingdom" Not only is that "doctrinal" opinion only based on the obscurity in Rev20- but you don't even have proof that Rev.20 says what you claim! What is written says, The saints lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The testimony of Jesus in Rev.20 never says "they lived and reigned with Him a thousand years on earth.!!" There's a reason the inspired scripture leaves out "on earth." It's to prove our point, for one! It's bc the phrase is figurative and prophetic. Dispensationals are "adding" to the Text. And by doing so, they create a thousand years that not many can believe when they actually read Rev.20. Rom.5: 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) So, if we were to agree with you- then Christians would not have free grace nor His righteousness NOW! I reject that!


our hermeneutics are very different. I believe in the literal interpretation of scripture( says what it means and means what it says). Yes, this is what a dispensationalist believe. They also believe that there is a difference between Israel and the church. THe church has not replaced Israel! It sounds like to me that you you take an allegorical stance on the scripture. One will need to spritualize a lot of it away in order for it to make sence. I do not adhere to the Preterist viewpoint . One must spiritualize almost the entire book of revelation. This really is very absurd to me. Many people will strongly disagree with you.

Now lets look at what was posted about revelation 20. Yes, the saints will rule and reign with christ for a literal 1000 years. One must remember that in the Old testament, many prophecies are shown to be in the future. Look at the book of Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah for example, all of the prophetical books. THe symbols in revelation can also be interpreted and it will all make sense by studying the prophecies in these books and others.

You also mentioned Romans 5:17. Yes, we are saved by christ and His righteousness. salvation has always been by faith in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.

Lastly, there is no reason for us to debate on this subject any longer, because we will end up disagreeing with each other.
 
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parousia70

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our hermeneutics are very different. I believe in the literal interpretation of scripture( says what it means and means what it says).

Except of course for "Shortly, at hand, soon, about to take place, in a very very little while, without delay, etc".... those terms can never be "Literal" to the Dispy

. THe church has not replaced Israel!
Correct. The CHURCH always has been Israel, and the Believing remnant of Israel has ALWAYS been THE CHURCH.

It's the Dispies who "replace" one for the other, ignoring the fact that they are one in the same and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

Jesus, and His JEWISH FOLLOWERS are the CHURCH (with gentiles grafted in of course)

Jesus is also REIGNING KING OF ISRAEL.

There is NO SEPARATION.
Jesus Christ, Head of the Church/King of Israel.

Since There is NO ISRAEL APART FROM CHRIST.
and Since THERE IS NO CHURCH APART FROM CHRIST
Therefore THERE IS NO ISRAEL APART FROM THE CHURCH
 
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coraline

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our hermeneutics are very different. I believe in the literal interpretation of scripture( says what it means and means what it says). Yes, this is what a dispensationalist believe. They also believe that there is a difference between Israel and the church. THe church has not replaced Israel! It sounds like to me that you you take an allegorical stance on the scripture. One will need to spritualize a lot of it away in order for it to make sence. I do not adhere to the Preterist viewpoint . One must spiritualize almost the entire book of revelation. This really is very absurd to me. Many people will strongly disagree with you.

Now lets look at what was posted about revelation 20. Yes, the saints will rule and reign with christ for a literal 1000 years. One must remember that in the Old testament, many prophecies are shown to be in the future. Look at the book of Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah for example, all of the prophetical books. THe symbols in revelation can also be interpreted and it will all make sense by studying the prophecies in these books and others.

You also mentioned Romans 5:17. Yes, we are saved by christ and His righteousness. salvation has always been by faith in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.

Lastly, there is no reason for us to debate on this subject any longer, because we will end up disagreeing with each other.

We learn what symbols mean in the N.T. from how that symbolism was used in the O.T.

Interpretation of scripture must be proved by proper exegesis and study with an open mind.

Eisegesis is easy. It just requires one's personal opinion of a verse, passage, etc.

Many held your view in the past, but had a willingness to question their traditional opinions.

I remember when I first read about dispensationalism- online. (11 years ago)

On most Christian websites today, I am happy to see and tell you that about 90% of members are non- dispensationals!
 
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parousia70

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We don't even need to go to the Old Testament:

READER BEWARE!
Anyone claiming to be an honest Bible expositor who willfully ignores, or tells you to willfully ignore the OT precedent for the use of prophetic language SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, and should be treated with a HIGH level of SKEPTICISM.

Here Peter reminds of that the earth of old was destroyed by water: NOAH'S flood.

But the earth was NOT destroyed in the flood. It's the same earth... ungodly PEOPLE were what was destroyed, not physical creation.

You are so far off base here LAMAD it defies all logic, reason and intellectual honesty.
 
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coraline

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But the earth was NOT destroyed in the flood. It's the same earth... ungodly PEOPLE were what was destroyed, not physical creation.

You are so far off base here LAMAD it defies all logic, reason and intellectual honesty.

Yes, somehow I remember a verse where the dove brought back a leaf to the ark from the same earth foundation after the waters receded!
 
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bibletruth469

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coraline said:
We learn what symbols mean in the N.T. from how that symbolism was used in the O.T. Interpretation of scripture must be proved by proper exegesis and study with an open mind. Eisegesis is easy. It just requires one's personal opinion of a verse, passage, etc. Many held your view in the past, but had a willingness to question their traditional opinions. I remember when I first read about dispensationalism- online. (11 years ago) On most Christian websites today, I am happy to see and tell you that about 90% of members are non- dispensationals!

I disagree. I actually believe that most people believe in the literal interpretation of scripture. For example , Christ will come back a second time in a very literal way, just like His first coming was in a literal way.
 
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I disagree. I actually believe that most people believe in the literal interpretation of scripture. For example , Christ will come back a second time in a very literal way, just like His first coming was in a literal way.

Amen bibletruth, and I believe that this is the last thing on earth that the god of this present evil world would want the masses to believe.

That that Day is coming..

Anything but that.. anything but the coming of the Lord with thousands upon thousands of His saints in that Day.

The enemy is working diligently to deceive all men and we should expect that actually, especially as we see that Day approaching.
 
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Here's a wondrous description of the Lord coming in that Day and the saints entering into his kingdom.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
 
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ebedmelech

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Amen bibletruth, and I believe that this is the last thing on earth that the god of this present evil world would want the masses to believe.

That that Day is coming..

Anything but that.. anything but the coming of the Lord with thousands upon thousands of His saints in that Day.

The enemy is working diligently to deceive all men and we should expect that actually, especially as we see that Day approaching.
Who denies Christ will come literally? I don't.

The point is (as your example doesn't show) that passage is Matthew 25...not Matthew 24 which is specific to Israel/Jerusalem.

Matthew 25 starts with two parables that show Jesus as a birdegroom that delays his coming, and a man that goes on a long journey. In each case this speaks of Jesus returning.

Therein is the problem...understanding Matthew 24 is 70AD and Matthew 25 is yet to come.

So Jesus is coming literally. What won't happen is a pre trib rapture...something we don't need to go over again...let's just see if it happens, along with a 3rd temple, and a literal thousand year reign...all taught in futurism because it uses a literal approach instead of allowing scripture to establish what it means.
 
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iamlamad

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Except of course for "Shortly, at hand, soon, about to take place, in a very very little while, without delay, etc".... those terms can never be "Literal" to the Dispy

Correct. The CHURCH always has been Israel, and the Believing remnant of Israel has ALWAYS been THE CHURCH.

It's the Dispies who "replace" one for the other, ignoring the fact that they are one in the same and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

Jesus, and His JEWISH FOLLOWERS are the CHURCH (with gentiles grafted in of course)

Jesus is also REIGNING KING OF ISRAEL.

There is NO SEPARATION.
Jesus Christ, Head of the Church/King of Israel.

Since There is NO ISRAEL APART FROM CHRIST.
and Since THERE IS NO CHURCH APART FROM CHRIST
Therefore THERE IS NO ISRAEL APART FROM THE CHURCH

TOTAL AND COMPLETE MYTH!

IN CHRIST there is no Jew and no Greek, for that wall of separation has been broken down. Period. End of that story. Anything else about the Church is myth. However, most of the church today is Gentile by birth physically. There was a Jewish church that started in Israel and spread, but it apparently did not make it past the first century. By Jewish I mean the people in that church were physically born of a Jewish mother. Speaking spiritually, they were just like the Gentiles: born again or born of the Holy Spirit and a part of the body of Christ, and as such looses their identity in Christ.

But there are millions of Jews and descendants of Jacob OUTSIDE of the church. They are ISRAELIS or Hebrews or Jacobites - descendants of Jacob. They are NOT the church. The church is not them. To make a blanket statement that "there is no Israel apart from the church" is simply ignorance of the word of God, or else needs much explanation. There is a NATION of Israel. WE could get on a plane and land there. This nation is a miracle of God. When God scattered Israel, He also promised to one day bring them back, and He has done that.

Ez 37
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land [Israel]: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

It is for sure, GOD disagrees with parousia70.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land [Israel]:
22 And I will make them one nation [Israel] in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

It should be clear now, God considers there is an ISRAEL outside of His church.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they [Israel] stumbled that they [Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their [Israel] fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy.

This verse shows the church (Salvation for the Gentiles) and Israel as "them" side by side in one verse.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [The Gentile church] be come in.

Here again Paul is comparing the church with Israel.

It should be VERY PLAIN now that God knows there is an Israel outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.

LAMAD
 
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TOTAL AND COMPLETE MYTH!

IN CHRIST there is no Jew and no Greek, for that wall of separation has been broken down. Period. End of that story. Anything else about the Church is myth. However, most of the church today is Gentile by birth physically. There was a Jewish church that started in Israel and spread, but it apparently did not make it past the first century. By Jewish I mean the people in that church were physically born of a Jewish mother. Speaking spiritually, they were just like the Gentiles: born again or born of the Holy Spirit and a part of the body of Christ, and as such looses their identity in Christ.

But there are millions of Jews and descendants of Jacob OUTSIDE of the church. They are ISRAELIS or Hebrews or Jacobites - descendants of Jacob. They are NOT the church. The church is not them. To make a blanket statement that "there is no Israel apart from the church" is simply ignorance of the word of God, or else needs much explanation. There is a NATION of Israel. WE could get on a plane and land there. This nation is a miracle of God. When God scattered Israel, He also promised to one day bring them back, and He has done that.

Ez 37
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land [Israel]: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

It is for sure, GOD disagrees with parousia70.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land [Israel]:
22 And I will make them one nation [Israel] in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

It should be clear now, God considers there is an ISRAEL outside of His church.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they [Israel] stumbled that they [Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their [Israel] fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy.

This verse shows the church (Salvation for the Gentiles) and Israel as "them" side by side in one verse.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [The Gentile church] be come in.

Here again Paul is comparing the church with Israel.

It should be VERY PLAIN now that God knows there is an Israel outside of the Church of Jesus Christ.

LAMAD
Except you missed the boat. Paul's teaching here starts in Romans 9 when he says they are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel.

It's also interesting you don't mention in Romans 11 where it says that the Jews and Gentiles are "one olive tree" grafted TOGETHER.

This is the error of futurism with their "two people of God" idea...it's quite erroneous. There's only one people of God...BOTTOM LINE!!!

Now they want to send money to herd Jews back to Israel to be slaughtered by some fictitious antichrist!

It won't happen!
 
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Who denies Christ will come literally? I don't.

Great, then tell us what future scripture you base His coming on. Thanks.

The point is (as your example doesn't show) that passage is Matthew 25...not Matthew 24 which is specific to Israel/Jerusalem.

Matthew 25 starts with two parables that show Jesus as a birdegroom that delays his coming, and a man that goes on a long journey. In each case this speaks of Jesus returning.

Therein is the problem...understanding Matthew 24 is 70AD and Matthew 25 is yet to come.

So you believe that Christ came in AD70 according to Matt 24 and you believe that Matt 25 is a future coming of Christ?

So Jesus is coming literally. What won't happen is a pre trib rapture...something we don't need to go over again...let's just see if it happens, along with a 3rd temple, and a literal thousand year reign...all taught in futurism because it uses a literal approach instead of allowing scripture to establish what it means.

And you base your belief that Christ is coming again on Matthew 25 right?
 
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parousia70 said in post 222:

The Material makeup of the Earths surface and atmosphere did not change after the Flood.

No change in the material makeup was required. For the heaven and earth which "were of old" (2 Peter 3:5-6) were still the literal first "heaven" (the sky/atmosphere, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20), and the literal "earth" (the dry land) which God created in Genesis 1:7-10, and which "perished" in Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6, Genesis 6:13-21).

parousia70 said in post 222:

What of Isaiah 51:16?

In Isaiah 51:16, the original Hebrew word (yacad, H3245) translated as "lay the foundations of" can be translated simply as "establish" (Proverbs 3:19), so that Isaiah 51:16 can refer to God's future establishment of a literal new heaven (i.e. a new first heaven/atmosphere for the earth) and a literal new earth (i.e. a new surface for the earth), like in Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 66:22-24, and Revelation 21:1-8. And Isaiah 51:16c can refer to the New Zion/New Jerusalem, the only one which will have everlasting joy and holiness (Isaiah 51:11, Isaiah 52:1, Revelation 21:2-8).

parousia70 said in post 222:

In Leviticus 26:14-20, God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19:"and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass."

Leviticus 26:19 refers to the literal sky (first heaven) above Israel, and the literal land (earth) of Israel, under severe drought conditions, brought on Israel as a judgment from God. I.e., the sky above Israel would become as barren of water as iron, and the ground of Israel would become so dry that it would become as hard as brass. This severe drought would cause the ground of Israel not to bear crops and its fruit trees not to bear fruit (Leviticus 26:20).

parousia70 said in post 222:

When the Medes destroyed Babylon (Isaiah 13:17), the Babylonian world came to an end.

To properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:17, it must be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).

In Isaiah 13:1, "Babylon" isn't the ancient city of Babylon, but the present-day city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

For the 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

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In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East that in ancient times was called "Media" and is now part of Iraq.

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes that conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

parousia70 said in post 222:

Notice the language that he uses in Isaiah 24:3-6 and Isaiah 24:19-20.

Isaiah 24 could happen at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming. For the events of "that day" in Isaiah 24:21-22 match the 2nd coming events of Revelation 19:19 to 20:3. And the events of Isaiah 24:23 match the post-tribulation, 2nd coming events of Matthew 24:29-30 and the subsequent millennial reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation 20:4-6 and Micah 4:1-4.
 
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parousia70 said in post 222:

In Isaiah 34:3-5, we have a description of the fall of Edom, notice the language that is used. "...and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

To properly understand Isaiah 34:3-5, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 34:1-17).

Isaiah 34:4 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).

In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) isn't the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" isn't the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 isn't the literal ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world.

Isaiah 34 doesn't refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it's still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It's not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through and won't ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).

Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

parousia70 said in post 222:

In Nahum 1:1-5, the subject of this judgment is Nineveh, not the physical world.

It includes both. Nahum 1:4-5 is a general statement regarding God's power. That's why it refers to places other than Nineveh.

parousia70 said in post 222:

If this language describes the judgment of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe?

Regarding "a new heavens", 2 Peter 3:13, Hebrews 1:10-12, and Revelation 21:1 can refer to God destroying only the earth's atmosphere and creating a new atmosphere. For the original Greek word (ouranos, G3772) translated as "heavens" or "heaven" doesn't have to mean the entire universe. Instead, it can mean only the first heavens/heaven, the skies/the earth's atmosphere, the "air" in which the birds fly (Matthew 6:26, Matthew 8:20, Matthew 13:32), the "sky" which can turn red at sunset or sunrise (Matthew 16:2-3), or can become filled with rain clouds and wind (Luke 12:54,56).

parousia70 said in post 222:

Also, the term "heaven and earth" can be seen to refer to the religious and civil state of Israel in Revelation 12:1-5, which speaks about the birth of Jesus Christ in literal Israel.

In Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up bodily to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

parousia70 said in post 222:

Revelation 12:1-5

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

parousia70 said in post 222:

Therefore, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 3:12; 21:2) is synonymous with the New Heaven and Earth!

They're shown to be distinct in Revelation 21:1-3, just as they're all literal.

New Jerusalem is a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It's God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, both Jews and Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20) and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).
 
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