The Same Event

random person · Feb 12, 2014

ebedmelech said:
Well done n2thelight...

I can remember just starting out in the faith as my pastor was teaching the "pre-trib rapture".

As I was reading and comparing I would to say to myself these are the same event.

I think the attractiveness of the pre-trib rapture is escaping "the great tribulation" for most. They want to believe they will be gone before God releases Satan.

Is going to be a rude awakening...because as Satan is released the church will encounter serious spiritual warfare!

I agree ... great job n2thelight!

Some partial preterists believe the restrainer was Claudius who ceased the Roman and Jewish persecutions under his reign until he was poisoned by the man of sin, the Beast Nero Caesar. And the letting loose of Satan for a season was during the reign of Nero Caesar which is considered the worst persecution Christians faced EVER. Nero and the Roman Empire are both the Beast interchangeably which was under the power of the Dragon (Satan).

That Gog is Nero and Magog is the Roman Empire see my Gog and Magog poll thread for more information.

parousia70 · Feb 12, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
a believer has the right to choose to walk by the spirit and will have peace,or choose to walk by the flesh . This is when the believer can be tempted by satan. Hope I answered your question.

You correctly cite that it is a believers own CHOICE that regulates his/her walk, not Satanic influence.

James Agrees:

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

I don't see Satan as a necessary component for the believer to be tempted.

The believers own desires are enough. Satanic influence is not necessary.

Satan has ZERO control. Not partial control as you claim, but ZERO control. He is POWERLESS to prevent ANYONE from Salvation.

bibletruth469 · Feb 12, 2014

parousia70 said:
You correctly cite that it is a believers own CHOICE that regulates his/her walk, not Satanic influence. James Agrees: James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. I don't see Satan as a necessary component for the believer to be tempted. The believers own desires are enough. Satanic influence is not necessary. Satan has ZERO control. Not partial control as you claim, but ZERO control. He is POWERLESS to prevent ANYONE from Salvation.

I disagree with you. Unfortunately satan and demons can tempt Gods people. Please look at Ephesians 6:10-20, I will quote from the KJV 11-13,"Put on the whole armor of God that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities ,against powers , against the rulers of darkness of this world , against spiritual wickedness in high places".

Another example from the Old Testament is the book of job. God did allow satan to tempt him, however it could only go so far as God allowed. Almighty God has the ultimate power and control. Christians need to always remember that and not fear.

James 1:14 is about the believer having trouble with ones one lust,; this is also true. Since Adam sinned , all have fallen short or the glory of God , Rom 3:23.. We are not only tempted by our own evil desires like it says in James, we are also tempted by the enemy.

Finally , I agree with you in the fact that satan has zero power to take away or prevent someone from receiving salvation. Look at Ephesians 1:13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation : in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise".

parousia70 · Feb 12, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
I disagree with you. Unfortunately satan and demons can tempt Gods people.

I never said he couldn't, I just said his influence is NOT NECESSARY for the believer to be drawn away and tempted. The Believing Sinner's own carnal desires are enough, as James so clearly points out. No Satan Needed.

Finally , I agree with you in the fact that satan has zero power to take away or prevent someone from receiving salvation.

Then what power does he have at all?
If he is powerless to prevent anyone from salvation, what else matters?
Isn't that the end game anyway?

bibletruth469 · Feb 12, 2014

parousia70 said:
I never said he couldn't, I just said his influence is NOT NECESSARY for the believer to be drawn away and tempted. The Believing Sinner's own carnal desires are enough, as James so clearly points out. No Satan Needed. Then what power does he have at all? If he is powerless to prevent anyone from salvation, what else matters? Isn't that the end game anyway?

We still have to live our lives holy and pleasing to God. Like I said before, the enemy is amongst us. We must through the Holy Spirit 's power, resist him so that others in turn can be brought to Christ. Anyone can read Eph 6 for oneself and see the truth in scripture .

parousia70 · Feb 12, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
We still have to live our lives holy and pleasing to God. Like I said before, the enemy is amongst us. We must through the Holy Spirit 's power, resist him so that others in turn can be brought to Christ. Anyone can read Eph 6 for oneself and see the truth in scripture .

I don't follow your logic.... Either Satan has power or he doesn't.

You seem to agree he does not have any real power to do anything of any real, eternal consequence to the believer... yet you say he DOES have the the power to do....um...well... uh.... to do what exactly? Tempt people? Big Deal... People tempt themselves... Satan needs to get in line if he wants to tempt folks, 'cause we are FULLY capable of tempting ourselves/and eachother without his influence.

He is a bit player, a two bit imposter.. a fake... he is a defeated foe and it's time we Christians start acting like it instead of cowering at the thought of his puny "temptations"...

bibletruth469 · Feb 12, 2014

parousia70 said:
I don't follow your logic.... Either Satan has power or he doesn't. You seem to agree he does not have any real power to do anything of any real, eternal consequence to the believer... yet you say he DOES have the the power to do....um...well... uh.... to do what exactly? Tempt people? Big Deal... People tempt themselves... Satan needs to get in line if he wants to tempt folks, 'cause we are FULLY capable of tempting ourselves/and eachother without his influence. He is a bit player, a two bit imposter.. a fake... he is a defeated foe and it's time we Christians start acting like it instead of cowering at the thought of his puny "temptations"...

We are off the subject of thus thread, but please look at the previous bible verses I quoted from the KJV . I believe if you look at the chapter of Ephesian 6, you can find the answer. Satan is a bigger influence than some people think. I do agree with most of what you stated above.

Choose Wisely · Feb 12, 2014

Bible2;65010927]

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

As I have stated before.......you don't understand the difference between the rapture and the second coming. You also don't understand the difference between tribulation and Gods wrath.

Genesis 7:9-10 doesn't say that Noah entered the ark for the last time 7 days before the flood. It just means that he spent the 7 days before the flood bringing all the animals into the ark. For Genesis 7:11,13 and Luke 17:27 show that Noah entered the ark for the last time the same day that the flood started.

It says he entered the ark and after 7 days the food came.

Genesis 7:13-14 means that the same day that the flood started (Genesis 7:11), Noah and his family entered the ark for the last time, and all the animals had finished being loaded onto the ark.

What purpose would you have from hiding from the truth of what the scripture says. Surely you are smart enough to understand that Noah, his family and ALL the animals entered the ark on the same day. That day would be the day Noah was instructed to enter the ark. I'm not sure what you would have to gain by fooling yourself.

Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two different sets of events.

I understand why most people think they are separate events.....because they can't figure if they are the same event how the rest of the scripture fits.

For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29).

I find it interesting that no one ever mentions the end of Rev 14. They always compare Matt 24 with Rev 19. So what is the end of Rev 14 all about?
I'll address the rest of your comments later.

Bible2 · Feb 13, 2014

Choose Wisely said in post 48:

As I have stated before.......you don't understand the difference between the rapture and the second coming.

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Choose Wisely said in post 48:

You also don't understand the difference between tribulation and Gods wrath.

There can indeed be a difference. For the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) have be God's wrath, just as no part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will have to be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

Choose Wisely said in post 48:

So what is the end of Rev 14 all about?

Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, when they are killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

iamlamad · Feb 13, 2014

parousia70 said:
I never said he couldn't, I just said his influence is NOT NECESSARY for the believer to be drawn away and tempted. The Believing Sinner's own carnal desires are enough, as James so clearly points out. No Satan Needed.

Then what power does he have at all?
If he is powerless to prevent anyone from salvation, what else matters?
Isn't that the end game anyway?

He has the POWER OF DECEPTION. Why else would there be hundreds (if not thousands) of denominations that cannot agree on Scripture?

For example: If I asked someone that doesn't, "why don't you pray in tongues?" their answer would be a PICASSO (a perfection on canvas) of deception.

IF I asked a baptist if they had received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit (or simply asked them if they were spirit filled) their answer would be a Rembrant of deception.

If I asked a posttribber why they believed in a posttrib rapture, their answer would be a Van Gogh (masterpiece) of deception.

OF COURSE if we asked a Mormon why they were a Mormon, or a Muslim why they were a Muslim, or a Jehovah's Witness why they were a Jehovah's Witness....their answer would be a Michael Angelo (masterpiece) of deception.

Satan is a MASTER at deception. Most, if not all believers are deceived in some area of their life - some a little, some a LOT. The very fact of so many different opinions here on this forum is proof positive of Satan's deception.

LAMAD

parousia70 · Feb 17, 2014

iamlamad said:
He has the POWER OF DECEPTION.

LAMAD

So Deception REQUIRES Satan be behind it in order for it to exist?
There is NO deception apart from Satan?
IS Satan the ONLY one with the power of deception?

Isn't Mans sinful nature sufficient enough to author it's own deception, or is Satanic Influence the ONLY power of Deception on earth?

Not sure what you care claiming here....

Sounds like "Flip Wilson Theology" to me...... "The devil made me do it!"

AnticipateHisComing · Feb 18, 2014

Good job n2thelight for starting this thread. Here is what I posted on another thread.

1 Cor 15:51 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

1 Thess 4:16 says this same thing; "and the dead in Christ will rise first."
is just stating that the the saints that are alive when Jesus comes will not join and live with Jesus before the dead saints. The dead are risen first and then we all are gathered/caught together to live with Jesus in the next age. This is just one passage that disproves millennialism.

Since I stated one verse that disproves Millenialism, I might as well tackle the verse always quoted to support it. While there are MANY verses that state the resurrection will come on the last day when Jesus comes, the Millenialist use one chapter in Revelation to support their idea.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Millialists assume that this "first resurrection" is of the body. Scripture does not use this expression anywhere else so it may seem ambiguous. Scripture does better define what the second death is so I use it to figure out what the "first resurrection" means.

Start with verse 6 and we find out that the people who share in the "first resurrection" are those who do not have a second death. So if we search scripture for second death we find:

Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsthey will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

So the second death is a death of the spirit after judgement day for those not born again of the spirit.
The first death is death of the body.
The "first resurrection" is the "birth" of our spirit or our becoming children of God whereby we avoid a second death.
The resurrection will be the joining of our spirit with our glorified, imperishable bodies on judgement day.

Certainly we Christians know what it is to be born again. The "first resurrection" is just another name for it. It is not being born of the flesh but being born of the spirit as Jesus himself stated.

John 3:5Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again. 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Other scriptures compare accepting Jesus as a dying and rebirth, which in other words is the "first resurrection".

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

2 Timothy 2:11 If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him.

Ephesians 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

So the "first resurrection" of Rev 20 is a spiritual resurrection not a bodily one.
And the reign of Jesus in Rev 20 started when Jesus ascended to heaven and took his seat next to the Father. The saints in heaven will also share in that reign. As Jesus ascended almost 2000 years ago, the mention of a 1000 year reign of Jesus in Rev 20 was symbolic, not literal. If it was literal we would all know when Jesus would return. Scripture is clear no one will know the date of his return.

iamlamad · Feb 18, 2014

parousia70 said:
So Deception REQUIRES Satan be behind it in order for it to exist?
There is NO deception apart from Satan?
IS Satan the ONLY one with the power of deception?

Isn't Mans sinful nature sufficient enough to author it's own deception, or is Satanic Influence the ONLY power of Deception on earth?

Not sure what you care claiming here....

Sounds like "Flip Wilson Theology" to me...... "The devil made me do it!"

If you notice in the Gospels, "Satan" is used when "demon" is meant. Jesus used to two words almost interchangeably.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Is Satan omnipresent? NO! Demons do his work. It is HIGHLY likely in these verses that it was not Satan personally involved, but devils or demons working under him. If Jesus can call these "Satan," then so can we.

So to answer your question, must all deception have Satan involved it it?

I will answer your question with another question: would there be deception in the world today if mankind had not fallen? Was there deception in the Garden if Eden before Satan came to tempt Eve?

ALL sin, if we go back far enough, has Satan behind it.

IF a five year old breaks the cookie jar, and is later asked "did you do this" and says "no, it wasn't me," is a demon involved in this lie? I think YES...maybe two or three demons. You might think no. We cannot see them. I think we would be shocked if we could see how many there are. If there is one angel for every human alive, and many more left over for other tasks, my guess is there is more than enough demons for every human alive to be assigned one or more.

Next, every human on the planet that is NOT born again is deceived, and don't even know it. All lost in false religions are deceived and don't know it. My point is, there is FAR MORE deception than most people think about. A further point, this deception is alive and well in most churches, and even on this forum. It is a fact, we don't agree on much here. Why don't we? It is very simple, we are deceived on some way or another on scripture.

Jack, if I asked you, "why don't YOU speak in tongues," your answer would be a masterpiece of deception......and you don't even realize it. I believe Satan (demons) are involved in all this deception. That is his specialty. Demons work 24/7 trying to get us away from the absolute truth of the Word of God. ANY deception robs of in some way in our walk with God. Paul said we don't fight with flesh and blood, but against demonic powers. They are constantly at work in our flesh and soul, to deceive us. Millions of believers have DIED early, because of deception, not knowing and not believing that Jesus bore their sickness and infirmities.

LAMAD

iamlamad · Feb 18, 2014

AnticipateHisComing said:
Good job n2thelight for starting this thread. Here is what I posted on another thread.

1 Cor 15:51 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

1 Thess 4:16 says this same thing; "and the dead in Christ will rise first."
is just stating that the the saints that are alive when Jesus comes will not join and live with Jesus before the dead saints. The dead are risen first and then we all are gathered/caught together to live with Jesus in the next age. This is just one passage that disproves millennialism.

Since I stated one verse that disproves Millenialism, I might as well tackle the verse always quoted to support it. While there are MANY verses that state the resurrection will come on the last day when Jesus comes, the Millenialist use one chapter in Revelation to support their idea.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Millialists assume that this "first resurrection" is of the body. Scripture does not use this expression anywhere else so it may seem ambiguous. Scripture does better define what the second death is so I use it to figure out what the "first resurrection" means.

Start with verse 6 and we find out that the people who share in the "first resurrection" are those who do not have a second death. So if we search scripture for second death we find:

Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsthey will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

So the second death is a death of the spirit after judgement day for those not born again of the spirit.
The first death is death of the body.
The "first resurrection" is the "birth" of our spirit or our becoming children of God whereby we avoid a second death.
The resurrection will be the joining of our spirit with our glorified, imperishable bodies on judgement day.

Certainly we Christians know what it is to be born again. The "first resurrection" is just another name for it. It is not being born of the flesh but being born of the spirit as Jesus himself stated.

John 3:5Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again. 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Other scriptures compare accepting Jesus as a dying and rebirth, which in other words is the "first resurrection".

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

2 Timothy 2:11 If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him.

Ephesians 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

So the "first resurrection" of Rev 20 is a spiritual resurrection not a bodily one.
And the reign of Jesus in Rev 20 started when Jesus ascended to heaven and took his seat next to the Father. The saints in heaven will also share in that reign. As Jesus ascended almost 2000 years ago, the mention of a 1000 year reign of Jesus in Rev 20 was symbolic, not literal. If it was literal we would all know when Jesus would return. Scripture is clear no one will know the date of his return.

MYTH. This is not at all what the scripture teaches, or the INTENT of the author in these scriptures.

Matt. 22
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Here it is as plain as day, "resurrection" is referring to the change from physical death to physical live with a new body that will never die.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Here is BOTH resurrections in one verse: the first is called the resurrection of life, the second is called the resurrection of damnation. BOTH are speaking of the resurrection of dead, physical bodies, into spiritual bodies that will never die.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

We all know this story of Mary and Martha and their brother who died. We can see in this verse what was the general line of thought: that on the last day there would come the general resurrection of the dead - again speaking of PHYSICAL resurrection from a dead and decayed body to a new resurrection body that will never die - like the angels.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This is speaking of Jesus. His soul did not stay in hell, (the place of departed spirits) but came back to His body and His body was raised or resurrected into a new body that would never die.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

CLEARLY talking about a physical, bodily resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

CLEARLY talking about a physical, bodily resurrection.

Rev. 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

This does not use the term "resurrection," but John saw "resurrected" people sitting on thrones as judges.

4 ...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These are more resurrected people; those that were beheaded by the Beast. After seeing these, John wrote, "This is the first resurrection." He went on to write, that these are "Blessed and holy." All who are a part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy." They will be "priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

So what is John telling us here? There will be TWO KINDS of resurrection from dead bodies to live and living forever bodies: honorable and dishonorable. The first will be first in HONOR. ALL the righteous will be a part of this most honorable resurrection. JESUS was the very first to be resurrected as a part of this first or most honorable or chief resurrection. The dead in Christ will be the next group to be a part of this first or most honorable resurrection. Next, those alive and in christ will be changed into their resurrection bodies, perhaps a millisecond after the dead in Christ are raised. Then the 144,000 will be raised to heaven and will received their resurrection bodies near the midpoint of the 70th week. Next, the Old testament saints will be raised, at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week of Daniel. It will be the last 24 hour period of the 70th week.

So the truth of scripture is, when God mentions "resurrection," it is always speaking of the physical body being changed into a resurrection body. As John and the rest of scripture clearly shows us, not all resurrections will happen in the same hour or the same day (24 hour day). Neither will all resurrections be for the righteous or all for the damned. There will be a CHIEF or most honorable resurrection for the righteous, taking place over a seven plus year time period (leaving out Jesus who was 2000 years before) and another for the damned, 1000 years later. It will NOT be an honorable resurrection, for they are all doomed to the lake of fire.

LAMAD

parousia70 · Feb 18, 2014

iamlamad said:
So to answer your question, must all deception have Satan involved it it?

I will answer your question with another question: would there be deception in the world today if mankind had not fallen? Was there deception in the Garden if Eden before Satan came to tempt Eve?

ALL sin, if we go back far enough, has Satan behind it.

IF a five year old breaks the cookie jar, and is later asked "did you do this" and says "no, it wasn't me," is a demon involved in this lie? I think YES...maybe two or three demons. You might think no. We cannot see them. I think we would be shocked if we could see how many there are.

If there is one angel for every human alive, and many more left over for other tasks, my guess is there is more than enough demons for every human alive to be assigned one or more.

Next, every human on the planet that is NOT born again is deceived, and don't even know it. All lost in false religions are deceived and don't know it. My point is, there is FAR MORE deception than most people think about. A further point, this deception is alive and well in most churches, and even on this forum. It is a fact, we don't agree on much here. Why don't we? It is very simple, we are deceived on some way or another on scripture.

So... The "Devil Made me do it" is your answer?.. Human beings bear no PERSONAL responsibility in the matter? We are just pawns in the game between our personal assigned Angels and Demons?

I disagree.

Each one is responsible for our own path... we can't blame demons and devils and Satans.... That excuse won't fly when we are called to account for OUR CHIOICES.

Millions of believers have DIED early, because of deception, not knowing and not believing that Jesus bore their sickness and infirmities.

Nobody "dies early" LAMAD, we all die at our appointed time. (Hebrews 9:27)

iamlamad · Feb 18, 2014

parousia70 said:
So... The "Devil Made me do it" is your answer?.. Human beings bear no PERSONAL responsibility in the matter? We are just pawns in the game between our personal assigned Angels and Demons?

I disagree.

Each one is responsible for our own path... we can't blame demons and devils and Satans.... That excuse won't fly when we are called to account for OUR CHIOICES.

Nobody "dies early" LAMAD, we all die at our appointed time. (Hebrews 9:27)

OF COURSE we are not pawns: humans make a DECISION to sin. But Jesus defeated sin for us, so the truth is, we don't have to sin. We can be FREE from the bondage of sin. I doubt if we disagree that much.

Sorry, I get so used to answering "old Jack" I called you Jack! Sorry, I disagree with an "appointed time." There is scripture that shows me otherwise. For example, if children honor their parents, they can "live long." If a believer lives after the flesh, their life will be cut short. If we are believers of FAITH, we can extend our life somewhat. As the Psalmist wrote, "with long life will He satisfy me." I am not satisfied yet....I have not yet finished my course. I am asking for more time to fulfill what He has planned for me to do.

Having said all that, perhaps there are a few people who have a set time. I know one prophet of God, who told us that God had told him how long he would live. He knew the age he would die at, from a young age. He tried to extend that time, but was not able. Perhaps Billy Graham has a set time. Prophets have said that his passing will tell us that Jesus coming will be soon after.

Good post. I was not clear in what I wrote. The devil is responsible for MUCH deception, but the bible also teaches that we can deceive ourselves!

LAMAD

AnticipateHisComing · Feb 18, 2014

iamlamad said:
MYTH. This is not at all what the scripture teaches, or the INTENT of the author in these scriptures.

YOUR OPINION, DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENT OPINION A MYTH. Prove me wrong with scripture, just stating opinion is a waste of words.

iamlamad said:
Matt. 22
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Here it is as plain as day, "resurrection" is referring to the change from physical death to physical live with a new body that will never die.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Here is BOTH resurrections in one verse: the first is called the resurrection of life, the second is called the resurrection of damnation. BOTH are speaking of the resurrection of dead, physical bodies, into spiritual bodies that will never die.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

We all know this story of Mary and Martha and their brother who died. We can see in this verse what was the general line of thought: that on the last day there would come the general resurrection of the dead - again speaking of PHYSICAL resurrection from a dead and decayed body to a new resurrection body that will never die - like the angels.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This is speaking of Jesus. His soul did not stay in hell, (the place of departed spirits) but came back to His body and His body was raised or resurrected into a new body that would never die.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

CLEARLY talking about a physical, bodily resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

CLEARLY talking about a physical, bodily resurrection.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT and a waste of words. I made no claim against a bodily resurrection.

What I said that you ignore is that in Rev 20, "first resurrection" is an expression meaning something different than other occurrences in scripture of the single word resurrection. I quoted scripture to my point that it means to be "born again".

How many times does the Bible use the word born? Does it always mean the same thing? Don't be like Nicodemus who could not grasp the concept that sometimes the Bible is talking about spiritual matters. This is exactly what Jesus meant when he said that we must be born again, it is a spiritual birth.

Here in Revelation, a book filled with symbolism we have the use of the expression "first resurrection" that is not used anywhere else in scripture. It makes sense to search out a symbolic/spiritual meaning for it; and born again fits perfectly.

iamlamad said:
Rev. 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

This does not use the term "resurrection," but John saw "resurrected" people sitting on thrones as judges.

4 ...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So John saw thrones and souls. I wonder were this is. It reads just like the description of heaven in Rev 4 and 5. Don't be confused by the statement that the souls "came to life" because Jesus has declared that souls are alive in heaven even as the body still lies in the ground. Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

As far as Jesus' reign, he ascended to be at the right of God the Father and has been reigning for close to 2000 years already. 1 Cor 15:25 "For he[Jesus] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

iamlamad said:
These are more resurrected people; those that were beheaded by the Beast. After seeing these, John wrote, "This is the first resurrection." He went on to write, that these are "Blessed and holy." All who are a part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy." They will be "priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

So what is John telling us here? There will be TWO KINDS of resurrection from dead bodies to live and living forever bodies: honorable and dishonorable. The first will be first in HONOR. ALL the righteous will be a part of this most honorable resurrection. JESUS was the very first to be resurrected as a part of this first or most honorable or chief resurrection. The dead in Christ will be the next group to be a part of this first or most honorable resurrection. Next, those alive and in christ will be changed into their resurrection bodies, perhaps a millisecond after the dead in Christ are raised. Then the 144,000 will be raised to heaven and will received their resurrection bodies near the midpoint of the 70th week. Next, the Old testament saints will be raised, at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week of Daniel. It will be the last 24 hour period of the 70th week.

So the truth of scripture is, when God mentions "resurrection," it is always speaking of the physical body being changed into a resurrection body. As John and the rest of scripture clearly shows us, not all resurrections will happen in the same hour or the same day (24 hour day). Neither will all resurrections be for the righteous or all for the damned. There will be a CHIEF or most honorable resurrection for the righteous, taking place over a seven plus year time period (leaving out Jesus who was 2000 years before) and another for the damned, 1000 years later. It will NOT be an honorable resurrection, for they are all doomed to the lake of fire.
LAMAD

There will only be ONE resurrection of dead bodies; of both the saved and lost. Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

The return of Jesus and the resurrection of all will take place in a flash, not spread out over multiple days as stated in 1 Cor 15:51 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

iamlamad · Feb 18, 2014

AnticipateHisComing said:
YOUR OPINION, DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENT OPINION A MYTH. Prove me wrong with scripture, just stating opinion is a waste of words.

I did - but you did not see it: pesky preconceived glasses.

AnticipateHisComing said:
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT and a waste of words. I made no claim against a bodily resurrection.

Certainly you did. What Paul was writing as a bodily resurrection you proclaimed as a spiritual resurrection. Again, those preconceived glasses.
The rapture IS A PART of the first resurrection. If you disagree, you live in a land of myth.

AnticipateHisComing said:
What I said that you ignore is that in Rev 20, "first resurrection" is an expression meaning something different than other occurrences in scripture of the single word resurrection. I quoted scripture to my point that it means to be "born again".

And I said MYTH because your theory is MYTH. You cannot pull that word or phrase or verse out of its context. The contest is PHYSICAL resurrection.

AnticipateHisComing said:
How many times does the Bible use the word born? Does it always mean the same thing? Don't be like Nicodemus who could not grasp the concept that sometimes the Bible is talking about spiritual matters. This is exactly what Jesus meant when he said that we must be born again, it is a spiritual birth.

I agree.

AnticipateHisComing said:
Here in Revelation, a book filled with symbolism we have the use of the expression "first resurrection" that is not used anywhere else in scripture. It makes sense to search out a symbolic/spiritual meaning for it; and born again fits perfectly.

To copy a word from The bible answer man, your theory falls totally outside the "pale of Orthodoxy." IN CONTEXT it can mean nothing else but a physical resurrection, for that is the context of the chapter.

AnticipateHisComing said:
So John saw thrones and souls. I wonder were this is. It reads just like the description of heaven in Rev 4 and 5. Don't be confused by the statement that the souls "came to life" because Jesus has declared that souls are alive in heaven even as the body still lies in the ground. Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

So WHO are those on the throne? They are the physically resurrected SAINTS, those raptured in Paul's pretrib rapture, plus the Old Testament saints who were resurrected at the 7th vial, plus those beheaded during the days of Great Tribulation: ALL speaking of a physical resurrection from a dead body, perhaps turned to dust, into a new resurrection body like the angels.

AnticipateHisComing said:
As far as Jesus' reign, he ascended to be at the right of God the Father and has been reigning for close to 2000 years already. 1 Cor 15:25 "For he[Jesus] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

I agree in part: He has been reigning over the CHURCH. The kingdoms of the world will not be transferred to Him until the midpoint of the future 70th week of Daniel.

AnticipateHisComing said:
There will only be ONE resurrection of dead bodies; of both the saved and lost. Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

TOTAL MYTH. You are trying to make a micro-verse - one with all the details - a lie, with a macro verse - one that sees an event from a long distance away: cannot see the details. It is very sloppy exegesis. John gives is DETAILS: that the second death resurrection will come 1000 years AFTER the last wave of the First or primary or most honorable resurrection.
Daniel only told us it would happen.

AnticipateHisComing said:
The return of Jesus and the resurrection of all will take place in a flash, not spread out over multiple days as stated in 1 Cor 15:51 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

WHAT Happens in a flash? IT is Paul's rapture that happens in a flash. The dead are raised first, but one microsecond or so later, those alive and in Christ are changed. It may only take a picosecond for each event to happen. But you miss the details. Paul tells us HIS resurrection/rapture will come as the trigger for the Day of the Lord - NOT the coming of Christ on the white horse. Agaiin you will MISS the truth for preconceived glasses. Old testament verses along with John in chapter 6 shows us the SIGNS for the Day begin at chapter 6. John ends that chapter with: "The day of His wrath has come." John wrote it, but you don't believe it. The rapture is the TRIGGER for the signs: the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. And that great earthquake is the first SIGN of the coming Day of the Lord. it will start SOON, not 7 years later.

In chapter 8 when the trumpets come, THAT is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. In chapter 13 when the BEAST has been revealed, THAT ALSO is inside the Day of the Lord. Paul's argument in 2 Thes. is that one can know for sure the Day has come, and you are in it, when you see the abomination. That is the proof positive that the day has started and those that see that sign are then IN the Day of the Lord.

JOhn saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7, LONG before Jesus comes on the white horse. So you have Paul against your theory, and John against your theory. There is no gathering in Rev. 19, except for the nations and the birds that will feast on the nations.

Finally, if the rapture were there, where you put it, in Rev. 19 as Jesus descends to earth, then the bride would MISS HER OWN WEDDING. Make no mistake, John shows us that the wedding and supper take place in heaven before Jesus descends.

Next, tells us WHERE God will find sheep for the judgment if the rapture takes place as Jesus descends. AT the rapture all the righteous would change into resurrection bodies, so NO SHEEP LEFT.

LAMAD

AnticipateHisComing · Feb 19, 2014

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT and a waste of words. I made no claim against a bodily resurrection.

iamlamad said:
Certainly you did. What Paul was writing as a bodily resurrection you proclaimed as a spiritual resurrection.

I made no claim that Paul's text was referring to a spiritual resurrection.
Usually when one claims another wrote something, but that person denies it, you then show where it was written as you read it. Put up or shut up.

AnticipateHisComing · Feb 19, 2014

Here in Revelation, a book filled with symbolism we have the use of the expression "first resurrection" that is not used anywhere else in scripture. It makes sense to search out a symbolic/spiritual meaning for it; and born again fits perfectly.

iamlamad said:
To copy a word from The bible answer man, your theory falls totally outside the "pale of Orthodoxy." IN CONTEXT it can mean nothing else but a physical resurrection, for that is the context of the chapter.

MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH! MYTH!

You write the word so many times you start making them up.

What you promote is Millennialism. You have no authority to declare that Millennialism is Orthodox. It is not.
How would the numerous denominations of today even convene in a way to determine this?
Generally, I don't like to use this as an argument, but the majority of Christians do not hold to the Millennialism concept.

Don't lecture me, saying my arguments are outside of Orthodox. It is the majority view.

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