Women Can't Preach

MikeBigg

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Well, all writing is done in a context and that includes historical context.

If you want to know what the person who wrote something was trying to say, you have to know the context in which it was written and the meaning the words had at that time.

Why the Bible should be any different is beyond me.

When reading your Bible, I expect you are aware of the context of many things .. for example, Matthew was written with a Jewish audience, so the accounts vary slightly.

Who was Jesus talking to when He said "you must be born again"? Who He was speaking to matters a bit.

Its the same with Paul's letters. Who were they written to, why were they written, what was the religious or political situation at the time.

These things matter and can inform the reader of what was being said.

The principle that it cannot mean now what it didn't mean then is a good principle.

There is no getting away from it - context matters.

Has this already been said here ... if you take the text out of context you are left with a con. I think there is some truth in that.

Kind regards,

Mike
 
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William II

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Mike kind of hit on what I wanted to say.

Context is extremely important when making sense of any historical event. If Jesus had not come 2000 years ago and instead came today, does anyone think the attitude toward women would be any different?
 
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cubanito

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I do not like giving half-reasoned responses. I am also somewhat busy. God willing in a week or so I will post a reasoned answer to MikeBigg. Until then, I would imagine JC would tell both women and liberal feminists to remember the song "you can keep your hat on."

JR
 
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MikeBigg

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I do not like giving half-reasoned responses. I am also somewhat busy. God willing in a week or so I will post a reasoned answer to MikeBigg. Until then, I would imagine JC would tell both women and liberal feminists to remember the song "you can keep your hat on."

Do you mean a reasoned answer as to why context matters?
 
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Thefunkyfundy

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How hard is it for people to understand? If they completely disregard this scripture then what's stoping them from doing the same to the whole Bible?

(33b.) As in all the worshipping assemblies of the saints,

(34.) let the women keep silent in your worshipping assemblies; for it is not turned over to [or allowed] them to speak; on the contrary, let them go on subordinating themselves, as also the law says. (1 Corinthians 14:33b-38 ).

Many people cant preach, just not women. According to scripture, I cant preach either and I am a man.
 
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Thefunkyfundy

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Mike kind of hit on what I wanted to say.

Context is extremely important when making sense of any historical event. If Jesus had not come 2000 years ago and instead came today, does anyone think the attitude toward women would be any different?

According to Richard Dawkins if Jesus came today he would be an Atheist. LOL. He wasn't joking either which is why I find him so funny. :p
 
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mandyangel

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How hard is it for people to understand? If they completely disregard this scripture then what's stoping them from doing the same to the whole Bible?

(33b.) As in all the worshipping assemblies of the saints,

(34.) let the women keep silent in your worshipping assemblies; for it is not turned over to [or allowed] them to speak; on the contrary, let them go on subordinating themselves, as also the law says. (1 Corinthians 14:33b-38 ).

So nice to find another Christian proudly speaking the truth. God Bless!
 
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Kings servant

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I have thought about women preaching and the one thing I keep coming back to is this. If God thought woman worthy enough to bare His Son then why would He not think Her worthy enough to preach His Word!

There are things I don't fully understand in God's Word but this one thing causes me to wonder if, maybe. Some where through out history, man added His own opinions to the Bible.
 
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MikeBigg

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There are things I don't fully understand in God's Word but this one thing causes me to wonder if, maybe. Some where through out history, man added His own opinions to the Bible.

I think you're spot on with that.

Here's one I came across recently ... its non-contentious, but does suggest that somewhere, somewhen, someone put their own slant on a translation and it has stuck.

Its to do with Judas being called a betrayer. If you do a word study on betrayer the Greek word is translated elsewhere as "messager". In fact nowhere else in the Bible is it translated "betrayer". And more worryingly, it is not used as betrayer in any other first century writings.

Whilst it is non-contentious in that it doesn't affect gender or sexuality or any of the other current issues, it does speak to how Judas was view by the other disciples and Jesus.

Kind regards,

Mike
 
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Mike kind of hit on what I wanted to say.

Context is extremely important when making sense of any historical event. If Jesus had not come 2000 years ago and instead came today, does anyone think the attitude toward women would be any different?

Could this then be taken to mean that the context of society at a given point in time should be the standard by which we apply scripture, instead of scripture itself. By this standard I could justify many things the scriptures clearly forbid. By this same standard we have a different scriptural interpretation than say an undeveloped patriarchal tribe in Africa who in terms of gender roles is precisely where it was 2000 years ago.

I mean it doesn't make much sense but that seems to be what happens when we interpret scripture willy nilly according to our own understanding.
 
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Many people cant preach, just not women. According to scripture, I cant preach either and I am a man.
True the scripture is quite clear about just who can preach:


3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

These are the requirements to preach and they are pretty clear. It would be a bit of a trick for a woman to meet these requirements especially being the husband of one wife. Sorry Joyce meyers.
 
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Jack Koons

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Deborah asked Barak to come. She never commanded him, she as prophetess repeated the command of God to Barak.
Judges 4: 6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him: 'Hath not the LORD, the God of Israel, commanded, saying: Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?"

She went with Barak because he would disobey God if she did not. Jud 4:8 And Barak said unto her: 'If thou wilt go with me, then I will go; but if thou wilt not go with me, I will not go.'

She was then by Barak's side, never actually taking the lead, but in support of a weak man.

How this can be used to support women leading Churches is beyond me. It shows a woman doing everything she could to obey both God and man, and in a strictly supporting role.

It IS true that she "judged Israel." That is a situation described as people coming to her for advice and decisions, NOT one of her imposing decisions on the people. Even so, the people are called CHILDREN for they were not acting as men:

5 And she sat under the palm-tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in the hill-country of Ephraim; and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

This is unfortunately a common situation in many Churches, were men from birth have been taught to suppress their agressive masculine traits, were they are told time and again women are better at everything, and were every commercial and TV sit com portrays them as stupid and uninvolved. Something happened in the 1800's were Churches became heavily feminized, and an emasculated form of Christianity became the norm in Protestant Churches as it had been long in Roman and Orthodox ones.

While I would take neither, I would rather be led by a woman than by an emasculated man. Check out all the cursing JC did starting in Mat 22 running into 23, this was flat out cursing. Check out Pauls using the word "copros" that was the street form of excrement, and Isaiah comparing his own good works to a used menstrual rag. Sometimes I get so sick of many men in my local church walking around with a plastic smile, talking softly in that "churchy" code language that I could spit. To their credit, the pastor is not one of these, and most members very much enjoy my loud, rambunctious ways. Recently the pastor asked if people could move up at least one pew. He meant next time, but I took off my shoes and climbed over to the front pew. What a shock, there was laughter in the sanctuary!

JR


Amen
 
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Jack Koons

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I would like to submit this article as food for thought. It's a tad presumptuous to assume that those who believe women should preach are not taking the Bible seriously. The Bible is what I base my whole life on - yet I do not hold your view on the issue. There are committed believers on both sides, so let's not be harsh. Just as we as a church do not condone slavery anymore, despite it being accepted in the Bible, indicates that while the Bible was written TO US it was not written FOR US. Context is key. You can twist words to mean anything if you don't look at how the original audience would have heard the message.

www
rachelheldevans
com/blog/mutuality-let-women-speak

(just remove the spaces and add periods between www and com)




Biblical servitude, and the slavery man has brought upon his fellow man, are two entirely different issues. Biblical servitude is therefore not a proper comparison to women preaching.

Please note Exodus 21, 22, Deut 23, Eph 6, and Col 4.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Mike, I don't really see that. I mean --- a historian required to understand what the bible means?! ---- why?! Up until the 1960 people simply read it as it was. Now suddenly a historian is needed!

I don't buy that, it seems ridiculous and I am just not talking about this female minister thing.

Note: As a female manager in IT, I am 100% confident that women could do all the technical elements involved in being a minister. The question is whether Gods word is to be taken seriously or not...!

Is a historian needed to interpret "Thou shalt not kill too" and John 3:16 too?

Of course, if Paul was just some chap who had a bit of a funky psychedelic experience while out travelling to Damascus, and then happened to write some letters that got preserved, then, no problem. What he says is relevant in relation to his culture and era. But if that was the case, then why should I bother with his letters AT ALL?

But if it's the inspired word of God which just happened to be documented by the Apostle Paul, then surely we ought to take it at face value?

There is nothing in the Bible that says: When reading this, please apply it only as far as it is compatible with the culture you live in, and socially acceptable to your contemporaries. Please make sure not to cause any offense! Thank you in advance, "The Holy Spirit".

This female minister situation is just one of many situations where I am struggling with this feeling of

  • "either it's true and then we'd better not mess around with it". OR
  • "it's not true, so why should I even care what it says. The editorial in the Guardian on this topic makes a lot more sense".




It really is that simple.

I have often said, There are two kinds of scholars; those who allow their intellect to be subject to the Word of God through the Holy Spirit, and those who put the Word of God under the subjection of their intellect. It doesn't take long to figure out which one the scholar is once he begins speaking.


Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Could this then be taken to mean that the context of society at a given point in time should be the standard by which we apply scripture, instead of scripture itself. By this standard I could justify many things the scriptures clearly forbid. By this same standard we have a different scriptural interpretation than say an undeveloped patriarchal tribe in Africa who in terms of gender roles is precisely where it was 2000 years ago.

I mean it doesn't make much sense but that seems to be what happens when we interpret scripture willy nilly according to our own understanding.




I wonder if this idea of applying the scripture from a historical and cultural point of view accidentally just slipped by the mind of God as He have man His inspired words? I wonder if God is in Heaven right now saying, What do I do now? I never imagined this would ever happen!

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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True the scripture is quite clear about just who can preach:


3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

These are the requirements to preach and they are pretty clear. It would be a bit of a trick for a woman to meet these requirements especially being the husband of one wife. Sorry Joyce meyers.


Are you taking the Bible literally, again?
 
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Cactus Jack

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Anyone can preach. But to have the authority of a pastor or reverend or other authoritative role in the church should be forbidden. Women too often rely on their "feelings" and ignore the facts, such as those provided by the Bible.
 
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Jack Koons

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Our culture is better than Islamic culture because women take an active part in our society. They have jobs, they have independence, they have political power, they have respect etc. This has been achieved with hard fought and won victories in the 20th century. Don't turn back what has been achieved cupcake - don't let our society become like the Muslim's vile culture.


The answer to you question was recorded by the Holy Spirit in John 20: 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus, our Saviour and Lord, is the difference!

Jack
 
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