The Seventh Trumpet is over 1,000 years in Duration

Just The Facts · Dec 29, 2013

Hi

So here is some food for thought.

The seventh Trumpets is over 1,000 years in length????? I know you will say ahh that is nonsense but do read the following and you will see this is what scripture appears to tell us.

Rv:10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Now we know some other things for sure here is the sounding of the seventh trumpet

11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest
destroy them which destroy the earth.

As we see the dead are judged at this point...which is here in Rv: 20 as well

Rv:20:11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

As we see judgement day is after the 1,000 years after gog and magog.

But look at this carefully because at first look there seems to be a contradiction between Chapter 11 and Chapter 20. In Revelation 11: it says judge the dead and reward the servants and saints.

Yet in Revelation 20 there is a break of over 1,000 years between these two events. In verse 4 we see the reward

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Then as shown above the judgement of the other dead after the 1,000 years and after Gog and Magog.

Now go back to Chapter 10 and notice is says IN THE DAYS when the Angels STARTS to sound. This shows us that the sevenths trumpet is actually a period of over 1,000 years if you are a literalist or just a long time if you are a A-mill.

No matter how you slice it the seventh trumpet is a very, very, very long period of time because it includes both the reward at the beginning of the 1,000 years and the judgement after the 1,000 years.

The only other conclusion you can come to is that the 1,000 years is actually only a day. That only comes from the day is a 1,000 years and a thousand years is a day concept from Peter.

And your thoughts?????

Just The Facts · Dec 30, 2013

Hi

I guess I have everyone scratching their heads. Wow not a single response it appears that I have confounded the usual course of nay Sayers. LOL

vinsight4u · Feb 3, 2014

Bible2 · Feb 5, 2014

vinsight4u said in post 3:

The trumpets sound in Rev. 7, and then later comes the time of silence when the 7th seal is opened.

Actually, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

vinsight4u said in post 3:

Rev. 8:2
"And I saw the seven angels..."

So where did John see them prior to this chapter?

In Revelation 8:2, the use of "the" before "angels" doesn't require that John had mentioned those 7 angels previously in Revelation. For at the time of Revelation 8:2, John says "I saw the seven angels which stood before God" (Revelation 8:2). I.e., he can be introducing this particular group of angels to us for the first time, just as someone could introduce a particular library to us for the first time by saying "I went to the library which is downtown".

vinsight4u · Feb 7, 2014

ebedmelech · Feb 7, 2014

The seventh trumpet is Christ coming into His reign...it right there in Revelation 11:15-18
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is a snapshot of Christ receiving all power after His ressurection. He receives all authority from God (Matthew 28:18), and He begins His reign with the birth of the church at Pentecost.

This same even is repeated in Revelation 12:10-12, and we also see this when He receives the book with the seven seals in Revelation 5.

Christ begins opening the seals in Revelation 6! As you read Matthew 24...you *should* see the seals opening.

TPeterY · Feb 7, 2014

Just The Facts said:
Hi

So here is some food for thought.

The seventh Trumpets is over 1,000 years in length????? I know you will say ahh that is nonsense but do read the following and you will see this is what scripture appears to tell us.

Rv:10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Now we know some other things for sure here is the sounding of the seventh trumpet

11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest
destroy them which destroy the earth.

As we see the dead are judged at this point...which is here in Rv: 20 as well

Rv:20:11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

As we see judgement day is after the 1,000 years after gog and magog.

But look at this carefully because at first look there seems to be a contradiction between Chapter 11 and Chapter 20. In Revelation 11: it says judge the dead and reward the servants and saints.

Yet in Revelation 20 there is a break of over 1,000 years between these two events. In verse 4 we see the reward

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Then as shown above the judgement of the other dead after the 1,000 years and after Gog and Magog.

Now go back to Chapter 10 and notice is says IN THE DAYS when the Angels STARTS to sound. This shows us that the sevenths trumpet is actually a period of over 1,000 years if you are a literalist or just a long time if you are a A-mill.

No matter how you slice it the seventh trumpet is a very, very, very long period of time because it includes both the reward at the beginning of the 1,000 years and the judgement after the 1,000 years.

The only other conclusion you can come to is that the 1,000 years is actually only a day. That only comes from the day is a 1,000 years and a thousand years is a day concept from Peter.

And your thoughts?????

Hi,

There's 2 Gog and Magog wars. One before the millennium and before Jesus returns described in Ezekiel 38. You can know this by Ezekiel 36 & 37 that describes the rebirth of Israel. It shouldn't be too long before this war happens.

The second Gog and Magog war occurs at the end of the millennium.

vinsight4u · Feb 7, 2014

ebedmelech · Feb 7, 2014

TPeterY said:
Hi,

There's 2 Gog and Magog wars. One before the millennium and before Jesus returns described in Ezekiel 38. You can know this by Ezekiel 36 & 37 that describes the rebirth of Israel. It shouldn't be too long before this war happens.

The second Gog and Magog war occurs at the end of the millennium.

No...never!

What John is doing in Revelation 20 is typifying God and Magog as the unbelievers who surround the camp of the saints.

Now common sense will tell us there is no way this happens. This language is the church in the world...the church is surrounded by unbelievers. THIS IS SPIRITUAL WARFARE!

This is how John describes Gog and Magog in Rev 20:7, 8:
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

This is what we as believers have to keep in mind as we see the world today turning on Christianity...and it will get worse. We will know who the true believers are as the heat cranks up when Satan is released.

Many think Satan is free now...not even close. Satan was bound at the cross!

I have no idea when this will happen, but Satan will be releasedl. Many of us Christians in the USA really have no idea what true persecution is yet, while Christians in many other nations face it daily.

Bible2 · Feb 8, 2014

ebedmelech said in post 6:

The seventh trumpet is Christ coming into His reign...it right there in Revelation 11:15-18
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is a snapshot of Christ receiving all power after His ressurection.

Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't (as is sometimes claimed) occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

ebedmelech said in post 6:

He receives all authority from God (Matthew 28:18), and He begins His reign with the birth of the church at Pentecost.

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

ebedmelech said in post 6:

This same even is repeated in Revelation 12:10-12, and we also see this when He receives the book with the seven seals in Revelation 5.

Revelation 12:10-12 hasn't happened yet, but will occur after the never-fulfilled Revelation 12:7-9. For all of Revelation 12 is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b).

Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what John saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

ebedmelech said in post 6:

Christ begins opening the seals in Revelation 6! As you read Matthew 24...you *should* see the seals opening.

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

Bible2 · Feb 8, 2014

TPeterY said in post 7:

There's 2 Gog and Magog wars. One before the millennium and before Jesus returns described in Ezekiel 38. You can know this by Ezekiel 36 & 37 that describes the rebirth of Israel.

Ezekiel chapters 36-37 could refer to a restoration of the Jews to their land during the future millennium.

On the other hand, the rebudding of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 could refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

TPeterY said in post 7:

There's 2 Gog and Magog wars. One before the millennium and before Jesus returns described in Ezekiel 38. You can know this by Ezekiel 36 & 37 that describes the rebirth of Israel. It shouldn't be too long before this war happens.

The second Gog and Magog war occurs at the end of the millennium.

Note that nothing requires 2 Gog and Magog wars. Instead, the only Gog and Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will occur only after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). Both accounts of the attack show that the Gog/Magog armies will be completely defeated by fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

ebedmelech · Feb 8, 2014

Bible2 said:
Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time...

Jesus' 2nd coming won't (as is sometimes claimed) occur immediately...

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection ...

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation ...

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; ...

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, ...

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD,...

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being ...

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge ...

Revelation 12:10-12 hasn't happened yet, but will occur after the never-fulfilled Revelation 12:7-9...

Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what John saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal,...

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21)...

The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation...

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption

Bible2...we've been there.

TPeterY · Feb 8, 2014

ebedmelech said:
No...never!

What John is doing in Revelation 20 is typifying God and Magog as the unbelievers who surround the camp of the saints.

Now common sense will tell us there is no way this happens. This language is the church in the world...the church is surrounded by unbelievers. THIS IS SPIRITUAL WARFARE!

This is how John describes Gog and Magog in Rev 20:7, 8:
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

This is what we as believers have to keep in mind as we see the world today turning on Christianity...and it will get worse. We will know who the true believers are as the heat cranks up when Satan is released.

Many think Satan is free now...not even close. Satan was bound at the cross!

I have no idea when this will happen, but Satan will be releasedl. Many of us Christians in the USA really have no idea what true persecution is yet, while Christians in many other nations face it daily.

Actually satan is very much alive hanging out at Fox News. Ever seen the devil in megyn kelly?

TPeterY · Feb 8, 2014

Bible2 said:
Ezekiel chapters 36-37 could refer to a restoration of the Jews to their land during the future millennium.

On the other hand, the rebudding of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 could refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

Note that nothing requires 2 Gog and Magog wars. Instead, the only Gog and Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will occur only after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). Both accounts of the attack show that the Gog/Magog armies will be completely defeated by fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

So who are the kings of the north attacking Israel during the tribulation?

Choose Wisely · Feb 8, 2014

TPeterY said:
Hi,

There's 2 Gog and Magog wars. One before the millennium and before Jesus returns described in Ezekiel 38. You can know this by Ezekiel 36 & 37 that describes the rebirth of Israel. It shouldn't be too long before this war happens.

The second Gog and Magog war occurs at the end of the millennium.

The first is at the end of the thousand years....there is no second.

Bible2 · Feb 9, 2014

TPeterY said in post 14:

So who are the kings of the north attacking Israel during the tribulation?

The king of the north who could attack and completely defeat and occupy both Israel and Egypt during a future, antitypical fulfillment of the war in Daniel 11:15-17 could be an Iraqi Baathist general.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein) to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all 3 of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Iraqi Baathists could agree to do this, for they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

Giantbear · Feb 9, 2014

The seventh trumpet is sounded by Christ at the end of the great harvest where he declares time no longer.

TPeterY · Feb 9, 2014

Choose Wisely said:
The first is at the end of the thousand years....there is no second.

So you're saying Iran will not attack Israel until after the millennium?

Look at the top 5 countries today that wants to annihilate Israel off the map; Iran, Turkey, Iraq, Sudan/Ethiopia and Libya. Four of those 5 will most likely be in the Gog Magog war. Iraq will attack later into the tribulation.

By the way, add up the population of Turkey, Iran, Libya, Sudan/Ethiopia and you'll get something like 300 million Muslims. There's your 200 million army that emanates out of the Euphrates river. The northern most part of the Euphrates river is in Turkey and they control the dam that can stop the flow of water within a day.

Revelation 9:13-16
New King James Version (NKJV)
Sixth Trumpet: The Angels from the Euphrates

13) Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14) saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15) So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16) Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

Note it also said 4 angels bound at the Euphrates, they represent those four countries. Turkey from the north could also have allies assisting but they are the main player from that part of the region.

TPeterY · Feb 9, 2014

Bible2 said:
The king of the north who could attack and completely defeat and occupy both Israel and Egypt during a future, antitypical fulfillment of the war in Daniel 11:15-17 could be an Iraqi Baathist general.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein) to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all 3 of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Iraqi Baathists could agree to do this, for they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

I like your last paragraph on the analysis of the "possible" event to come that can kill 1/4 of the world's population. But if you think there's only one Gog Magog war and it happens only at the end of the millennium, than your entire description of everything you wrote above is contradiction to your thinking and false.

It's because what you wrote is a description to a portion of the Gog Magog events to come right before or in the tribulation.

You mentioned Iran attacking Israel so many times. Look at Ezekiel 38:5. Persia is Iran. Iran is east of Israel. Iran's attack will be part of the Gog Magog war. You're describing a Gog Magog war.

Ezekiel 38:5
New King James Version (NKJV)
5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet;

However, you did manage to evade my question. Would you mind answering who the Kings of the North are? Daniel 11:15-17 didn't say who, only mentions what the King of the North will do.

Choose Wisely · Feb 9, 2014

TPeterY;64994697]

So you're saying Iran will not attack Israel until after the millennium?

Don't recall saying that......but it is unlikely to happen.

Look at the top 5 countries today that wants to annihilate Israel off the map; Iran, Turkey, Iraq, Sudan/Ethiopia and Libya. Four of those 5 will most likely be in the Gog Magog war. Iraq will attack later into the tribulation.

So do you think Iraq is just going to sit on their thumbs? There is reason that Iraq is not mentioned. It is because they will receive the final part of their judgment.......Jer 50 and 51. They will not be around. That is why Iraq is not mentioned. Iran etc will still be around for Gog Magog which happens at the end of 1000 years.

By the way, add up the population of Turkey, Iran, Libya, Sudan/Ethiopia and you'll get something like 300 million Muslims. There's your 200 million army that emanates out of the Euphrates river. The northern most part of the Euphrates river is in Turkey and they control the dam that can stop the flow of water within a day.

Sorry......the kings of the East will be China and likely...Korea......Viet Nam and others.

Note it also said 4 angels bound at the Euphrates, they represent those four countries. Turkey from the north could also have allies assisting but they are the main player from that part of the region.

The four angels do not represent four countries.....the represent four angels... just like it says.

FURTHER................I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. There are walls........look at the pictures when you type in "Israel walls "

The Seventh Trumpet is over 1,000 years in Duration

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