Are police really more qualified?

ThatRobGuy · Feb 6, 2014

When I've had the opportunity to discuss various parts of the gun debate with folks on the left (specifically, the ones who support the idea of a gun ban or the ones who oppose concealed carry for citizens), I often find that while they oppose citizens carrying, they don't oppose policemen carrying...often citing that police are more qualified to do so than citizens.

I don't know if I necessarily buy that...

While police do go through some initial training and are required to get some range time in scheduled intervals, does that really equate to them being more equipped to handle certain situations better than a citizen who's opted to take similar training and practices at a range once a week?

While there are some officers who've had 20+ years experience and done their fair share of dangerous duty, there are also rookie officers and officers in quiet towns who may go a decade without even having to draw their weapon.

For example, let's say you have two people carrying guns in public:
One is a former army ranger with live combat experience who's now a civilian who's a firearms enthusiast and has years of experience with weapons.
The second is 23 year old officer right out of cadet school in his first year on the job.

I'm trying to understand the mindset of some of the folks on the left who feel in danger with the first guy having a gun, but yet somehow feel safer and are okay with the second guy having a gun in public.

I want to add the disclaimer that this isn't intended to be a 2nd amendment debate or a debate about concealed carry laws in general...for this discussion, I'm strictly trying to understand the mindset of the people who are of the position "Cops should be the only ones with guns"

Sadalbari · Feb 6, 2014

I'm confused by your question. Are you saying we would be less safe if only cops were armed?

muslimsoldier4life · Feb 6, 2014

Who's better with a gun: the former servicemmeber who's deployed and fought in combat and is now a private citizen, or the rookie cop patrolling the streets?

Sadalbari · Feb 6, 2014

muslimsoldier4life said:
Who's better with a gun: the former servicemmeber who's deployed and fought in combat and is now a private citizen, or the rookie cop patrolling the streets?

The soldier who could have PTSD? The private citizen who stockpiles weapons and fears the government? Versus: the trained police officer who might be a rookie? Hmm...well I suppose the retired soldier might be better trained but if he goes off the deep end his training and experience is a liability.

muslimsoldier4life · Feb 6, 2014

Sadalbari said:
The soldier who could have PTSD? The private citizen who stockpiles weapons and fears the government? Versus: the trained police officer who might be a rookie? Hmm...well I suppose the retired soldier might be better trained but if he goes off the deep end his training and experience is a liability.

As opposed to the rookie cop, shooting someone because he's nervous or shooting too many rounds and killing an innocent bystander?

KnowtheSilence · Feb 6, 2014

Yes, you can come up with a scenario where a civilian (doesn't even have to be ex-mil) has more training than a cop, but that's not going to be the norm.

I can get a CCW permit in my state, and all I've had is a four-hour class covering very, very basic stuff (safety rules, gun terminology, sights, stances, etc...nothing about deescalation, justified use of force, weapon retention...the stuff you'd really hope that a person carrying a gun for defense would know about), followed by a trip to the range where I shot 50 rounds at a target ten feet away. It doesn't matter if I never fire another shot or take another class; my state says I'm qualified to carry a gun (and some states don't even require that much). Any cop is going to have more training than that.

I think that's a major part of what makes some people uncomfortable with it. There are some people who are legally allowed to carry (and do) who really don't have much in the way of training at all. I'm fairly pro-gun and am in favor of concealed carry, but the lack of training in some people does give me pause.

A second view that some people take (not me personally) simply has to do with the reason a person is carrying. Even in your scenario where the first guy has more experience than the rookie cop, the cop has a job to do, and that involves carrying a gun. The ex-army guy may have enough know-how, but it's not his business to make decisions to use lethal force to stop a crime.

Sadalbari · Feb 6, 2014

muslimsoldier4life said:
As opposed to the rookie cop, shooting someone because he's nervous or shooting too many rounds and killing an innocent bystander?

Arguably yes, since that is an accident not a deliberate attack by a better trained gun enthusiast.

muslimsoldier4life · Feb 6, 2014

Sadalbari said:
Arguably yes, since that is an accident not a deliberate attack by a better trained gun enthusiast.

Would you rather put your life in the hands of said rookie cop, or an individual that is combat hardened and aware of what's going on around him? From what I can gather, you'd rather a rookie cop have your back. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

You've already assumed that if a Soldier has PTSD, they're pre-disposed to random violence if they have a gun; that is inaccurate. Hundreds of Servicemembers have PTSD, but are well adjusted members of society once they get out. PTSD may strike, but 99% of the time it's not going to result in a violent gun shooting bloodbath that you portray. Rather it's gonna be more of one in which they OD on drugs, alcohol or take their own life.

Sadalbari · Feb 6, 2014

muslimsoldier4life said:
Would you rather put your life in the hands of said rookie cop, or an individual that is combat hardened and aware of what's going on around him? From what I can gather, you'd rather a rookie cop have your back. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

You've already assumed that if a Soldier has PTSD, they're pre-disposed to random violence if they have a gun; that is inaccurate. Hundreds of Servicemembers have PTSD, but are well adjusted members of society once they get out. PTSD may strike, but 99% of the time it's not going to result in a violent gun shooting bloodbath that you portray. Rather it's gonna be more of one in which they OD on drugs, alcohol or take their own life.

I would prefer those charged to serve and protect the public were armed over those who intend harm; yes that is correct.

Ken-1122 · Feb 6, 2014

miniverchivi said:
When I've had the opportunity to discuss various parts of the gun debate with folks on the left (specifically, the ones who support the idea of a gun ban or the ones who oppose concealed carry for citizens), I often find that while they oppose citizens carrying, they don't oppose policemen carrying...often citing that police are more qualified to do so than citizens.

I don't know if I necessarily buy that...

While police do go through some initial training and are required to get some range time in scheduled intervals, does that really equate to them being more equipped to handle certain situations better than a citizen who's opted to take similar training and practices at a range once a week?

While there are some officers who've had 20+ years experience and done their fair share of dangerous duty, there are also rookie officers and officers in quiet towns who may go a decade without even having to draw their weapon.

For example, let's say you have two people carrying guns in public:
One is a former army ranger with live combat experience who's now a civilian who's a firearms enthusiast and has years of experience with weapons.
The second is 23 year old officer right out of cadet school in his first year on the job.

I'm trying to understand the mindset of some of the folks on the left who feel in danger with the first guy having a gun, but yet somehow feel safer and are okay with the second guy having a gun in public.

I want to add the disclaimer that this isn't intended to be a 2nd amendment debate or a debate about concealed carry laws in general...for this discussion, I'm strictly trying to understand the mindset of the people who are of the position "Cops should be the only ones with guns"

I don't think the attitude is that police are better at using guns, but that they trust the police with guns who is under constant scrutiny over some stranger they know nothing about who could be mentally deranged.

Ken

Trogdor the Burninator · Feb 6, 2014

I can't speak for Police vs military training in the US, only where I live

The difference is that the cop is trained in a whole range of areas including conflict resolution, dealing with people with mental illnesses and non-lethal apprehension of subjects,as well as weapons training. The soldier (some training in civlian engagement notwithstanding) is trained to kill people.

Thus the cop is the guy I want patrolling the streets near me.

SnowCal · Feb 7, 2014

Shoot. We could use examples that even better cherrypick your argument. Why should a rookie cop be allowed to carry if a retired cop with 30 years on the force can't.

My problem with CCW laws is that they allow any clown with a Glock to pretend he's a cop. The 'training' required is a joke. I'd very much support allowing CCW if you attend a POST academy and can pass the sort of background and psych evals that police recruits go through. I think that's much stricter than what's needed and I'd prefer something closer to today's laws than that. But I do dislike how lax today's CCW requirements are. 'Heroes' who don't know what they're doing are liabilities.

Jeffwhosoever · Feb 7, 2014

I think the concern of CCW "cowboys" shooting up innocent people who only appeared to be villians is a far fetched hypothetical scenario. I've been a CCW for 25 years and have never shot anyone nor pulled a gun on someone and I fire 1000-2000 rounds a year on a range, and before that I grew up hunting.

ThatRobGuy · Feb 7, 2014

SnowCal said:
Shoot. We could use examples that even better cherrypick your argument. Why should a rookie cop be allowed to carry if a retired cop with 30 years on the force can't.

The whole point of my argument was indeed a cherrypick by design

As I said, I'm trying to figure out why a person (who would normally oppose someone carrying a gun) somehow doesn't feel the same fear if that person carrying has a badge when in reality, in terms of the character of the person, the person doesn't know the cop any better than the civilian...they're both strangers, one stranger just happens to wear a uniform.

My problem with CCW laws is that they allow any clown with a Glock to pretend he's a cop. The 'training' required is a joke. I'd very much support allowing CCW if you attend a POST academy and can pass the sort of background and psych evals that police recruits go through. I think that's much stricter than what's needed and I'd prefer something closer to today's laws than that. But I do dislike how lax today's CCW requirements are. 'Heroes' who don't know what they're doing are liabilities.

Well, the CCW laws vary by state...where I live "any clown with a Glock" can't pretend he's a cop. I went through a series of background checks to make sure I wasn't a criminal or mentally defective...and I'm not aware of any state that allows you to act as a police officer if you have a CCW. In fact, the first rule of thumb with a CCW is "it doesn't make you a cop"...this sentiment was repeated over and over in my CCW class.

In terms of training goes, I would be that your average gun enthusiast practices at the range more than your average cop does.

KnowtheSilence · Feb 7, 2014

SnowCal said:
My problem with CCW laws is that they allow any clown with a Glock to pretend he's a cop. The 'training' required is a joke. I'd very much support allowing CCW if you attend a POST academy and can pass the sort of background and psych evals that police recruits go through. I think that's much stricter than what's needed and I'd prefer something closer to today's laws than that. But I do dislike how lax today's CCW requirements are. 'Heroes' who don't know what they're doing are liabilities.

It really bothers me when I encounter people who think that carrying a gun makes them a cop with less paperwork. Like I said, I'm for people being able to carry for self defense, but there are far too many people who do that have unrealistic ideas about what they can/can't, should/shouldn't do with it.

stamperben · Feb 7, 2014

Without coming down on one side or the other about CC, I will point out that the LEO is the one who is much more identifiable due to the badge they wear.

Does that mean I trust them more than anyone else? No, it doesn't. I don't trust anyone with a weapon except for myself.

South Bound · Feb 7, 2014

Sadalbari said:
The soldier who could have PTSD?

Two problems with this.

The first is that PTSD doesn't mean "not trustworthy with a weapon".

What about somebody who isn't a soldier, but may have PTSD as the result of an accident?

The second is that many police officers are veterans. Going by your logic that every vet with PTSD is a ticking time bomb, which I DO NOT share in any way, what do you do with the police officer who may have PTSD that hasn't manifested itself yet?

Or what about the police officer who acquires PTSD after becoming a police officer?

The private citizen who stockpiles weapons and fears the government?

Could you please define "stockpile"? Because I've been accused of "stockpiling" weapons and food, when that is not the case.

And is it bad to fear your government? If so, then would you allow James Madison to carry a gun?

Versus: the trained police officer who might be a rookie? Hmm...well I suppose the retired soldier might be better trained but if he goes off the deep end his training and experience is a liability.

I remember back in the 80s when Hollywood tried to portray Vietnam veterans as ticking time bombs, just waiting to go off. Made me mad then and it still makes me mad.

KnowtheSilence said:
Yes, you can come up with a scenario where a civilian (doesn't even have to be ex-mil) has more training than a cop, but that's not going to be the norm.

Actually, you'd be surprised. I'm involved with Appleseed and most of the folks at Appleseed have better training than your average cop.

I can get a CCW permit in my state, and all I've had is a four-hour class covering very, very basic stuff (safety rules, gun terminology, sights, stances, etc...nothing about deescalation, justified use of force, weapon retention...the stuff you'd really hope that a person carrying a gun for defense would know about), followed by a trip to the range where I shot 50 rounds at a target ten feet away. It doesn't matter if I never fire another shot or take another class; my state says I'm qualified to carry a gun (and some states don't even require that much). Any cop is going to have more training than that.

What state are you in? That's not typical.

A second view that some people take (not me personally) simply has to do with the reason a person is carrying. Even in your scenario where the first guy has more experience than the rookie cop, the cop has a job to do, and that involves carrying a gun.

I see. So, how many times in the course of a day does a police officer use his weapon?

The ex-army guy may have enough know-how, but it's not his business to make decisions to use lethal force to stop a crime.

Actually, it is his business. In fact, it's his responsibility under the law if he has to defend himself.

KnowtheSilence said:
I would be surprised, yes.

Then maybe you should get to know the community before you tell us we don't know what we're talking about.

it's also been my experience that your average gun owner hasn't had a lot of real training

Maybe the problem is with your experience.

muslimsoldier4life · Feb 7, 2014

There seems to be a misconception that most people with a CCW, receive only the basic training and that's it. On the contrary, people continue practice firing their weapons and go to advanced weapons training.

In the US military,, we are taught to put rounds on target but deadly force is a last measure; same training as a cop. We are first taught to subdue the individual, and bring about lethal force only if the former does not work. Cops are trained the same way. Over the past decade though, US servicemembers have been at war, and thousands of individuals have killed someone in combat via their weapons. Most cops never fire their weapons in the line of duty, even when standoffs happen. What does that tell me there? it tells me that the majority of combat vets know what it's like to be in a firefight and aren't likely to freeze, or make an error in judgement like a rookie cop or someone who's never been shot at typical reaction.

South Bound · Feb 7, 2014

muslimsoldier4life said:
There seems to be a misconception that most people with a CCW, receive only the basic training and that's it. On the contrary, people continue practice firing their weapons and go to advanced weapons training.

Once again, Appleseed.

iluvatar5150 said:
How many people have gone through Appleseed training?

I don't know, off the top of my head, but it's existence shows that there are opportunities for more comprehensive training than the police have.

All I know is that they fill up pretty quick and they're always packed when we go.

Armoured · Feb 7, 2014

As someone who's been there, done that, frankly, NO ONE is more or less qualified to carry a firearm, really. I've seen soldiers with hundreds of hours of training fall apart in a weeping, self defecating mess when fired on for the first time, and I've seen non arms corps soldiers (ordnance, pay, cooks and the like) perform perfectly under fire. You never know how ANYONE is going to react in that situation until they, you know, are actually IN that situation.

That said, here come the caveats, the more training, discipline and oversight you have the more likely you are to respond appropriately. And while training doesn't necessarily mean you will handle firearms appropriately in the heat of the moment, I'm 100% certain that people who haven't had the appropriate training, discipline, and oversight are more likely to handle the situation badly than people who have had the correct training, discipline, and oversight.

Are police really more qualified?

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