Is Hell Really Eternal?

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Der Alte

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Says who? Talk about evading the question, Try, try, again to answer the verses posted and not attack the poster.

Pointing out errors is not attacking the poster.

If it wasn't the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him why do you think Job said that?Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Nothing in any of my replies can possibly be construed to say the Angel of God was doing anything.

Are you saying that God did not give the adversary permission to test Job?
אֱלֹהִים again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse אֱלֹהִים and accuse Him of being unjust

אֱלֹהִים was careful, however, to again set limits on what the adversary could do to Job and said, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life”.

I did not say or imply that God did not give Satan permission to test Job.

The name/title Satan is self explanatory of the holder’s fault because it literally means adversary in the ancient semitic language that it was originally recorded. The Lore of the Light-Bearer," G. L. Bartholomew

What is your point?

This is from the Bible:
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3 NKJV)

Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.

What is your point?

This is from the Bible too check your out of context cross reference, it says it is God who tests, not a superstitious superhuman spirit devil
… let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)

I said nothing about "a superstitious superhuman spirit devil." Your proof text does not say that "only" God tests or that people are not tested by something or someone other than God.

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation (Amos 3, 64, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas. "McClintock Biblical Encyclopedia." Okay, what is you answer then?

Earlier, indeed, a Satan, so called by way of eminence, occasionally appears as the malicious author of human misfortune, but only under the divine superintendence: e. g. incites David to a sinful act, (1 Chron. 21, 1); casts suspicions upon Job's piety (Job 1, 6' sq.), and, with Jehovah's permission, inflicts upon him a lot gradually more severe to the utmost point of endurance; appears as the mendacious impeacher (α κατηυωρ, Rev. 12, 10) οf the high-priest Joshua before the angel of God, but draws upon himself the divine malediction (Zech. 3, 1 sq.).

Yet in all this he is as little like the Ahriman of the Zend Aνesta (Rhode, Heil. Sage, p. 182 sq.; Matthai, Religionsgloube d. Apostel, II, i, 171 sq.; Creuzer, Symbol. i. 705) as an indifferent prosecuting attorney general or judicial suρerintendent commissioned by Jehovah.

In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 Μacc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (δαιμόνιa), while they never refer to Σαταν. "Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature." Thank you for your help, I could not remember where it came from, so what is your answer?

What is it that you think I should answer? You made no assertion and you asked no question. If I want to know what the Jews believed I go to Jewish sources, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, not a bunch of scholars.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Satan-In the Bible.

Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463) is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible.

SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra KJV, ESV, Pulpit Commentary, Gill's Exposition, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.
He rather says that there was no one above God, or no umpire uninterested in the controversy, before whom the cause could be argued, and who would be competent to decide the matter in issue between him and his Maker. Barnes' Notes

What is the purpose of your reference to the Talmud? Do you have a particular folio or tractate in mind? I have no argument with Job 9:2
 
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he-man

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Pointing out errors is not attacking the poster.
Nothing in any of my replies can possibly be construed to say the Angel of God was doing anything. I did not say or imply that God did not give Satan permission to test Job.
Yes, funny. Despite all the snide little smiley faces. I don't recall Satan asking permission from God.Originally Posted by Der Alter View Post
What some people might say, is irrelevant! What does the Bible say? There is no implied level of cooperation between God and the devil.
Try, try, again to answer the references and the verses I posted.

If it wasn't the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him why do you think Job said that?
Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Now try try again...Are you saying that God did not give the adversary permission to test Job?אֱלֹהִים again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse אֱלֹהִים and accuse Him of being unjust.

אֱלֹהִים was careful, however, to again set limits on what the adversary could do to Job and said, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life”.

What is the point? because it literally means adversaryand has nothing to do with a dis-obedient angel.
The name/title Satan is self explanatory of the holder’s fault because it literally means adversary in the ancient semitic language that it was originally recorded. The Lore of the Light-Bearer," G. L. Bartholomew

The point is that it was God, not one of your devils, that tested Job.
Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.
This is from the Bible too check your out of context cross reference, it says it is God who tests, not your non-existant superstitious superhuman spirit devil
… let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)

God does not mention a satan but says you should rule over your own sin.
Genesis 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? (7) If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation (Amos 3, 64, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas. "McClintock Biblical Encyclopedia."
How do you not support that quote? What is your answer then or do you wish to side-step it again?

Earlier, indeed, a Satan, so called by way of eminence, occasionally appears as the malicious author of human misfortune, but only under the divine superintendence: e. g. incites David to a sinful act, (1 Chron. 21, 1); casts suspicions upon Job's piety (Job 1, 6' sq.), and, with Jehovah's permission, inflicts upon him a lot gradually more severe to the utmost point of endurance; appears as the mendacious impeacher (α κατηυωρ, Rev. 12, 10) οf the high-priest Joshua before the angel of God, but draws upon himself the divine malediction (Zech. 3, 1 sq.).

Yet in all this he is as little like the Ahriman of the Zend Aνesta (Rhode, Heil. Sage, p. 182 sq.; Matthai, Religionsgloube d. Apostel, II, i, 171 sq.; Creuzer, Symbol. i. 705) as an indifferent prosecuting attorney general or judicial suρerintendent commissioned by Jehovah.

In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 Μacc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (δαιμόνιa), while they never refer to Σαταν. "Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature." The question is how do you answer that statement? what is your answer?

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God.

This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.
Jewish Encyclopedia-Satan-In the Bible.

What is the point? Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, No devil, nothing between him and his Maker.

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra KJV, ESV, Pulpit Commentary, Gill's Exposition, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.

He rather says that there was no one above God, or no umpire uninterested in the controversy, before whom the cause could be argued, and who would be competent to decide the matter in issue between him and his Maker. Barnes' Notes

It also seems liked you skipped over these verses when you smelled the smoke of God's anger.
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.
*NOTE: Especially when it comes to the smoke in their eyes.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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My previous post.

Pointing out errors is not attacking the poster.

Nothing in any of my replies can possibly be construed to say the Angel of God was doing anything.

I did not say or imply that God did not give Satan permission to test Job. [This does not contradict my previous statement, i.e. "I don't recall Satan asking permission from God.]

What is your point?

What is your point?

I said nothing about "a superstitious superhuman spirit devil." Your proof text does not say that "only" God tests or that people are not tested by something or someone other than God. [Please reread this before repeating your argument.]

What is it that you think I should answer? You made no assertion and you asked no question. If I want to know what the Jews believed I go to Jewish sources, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, not a bunch of scholars.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Satan-In the Bible.

Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view [Satan as a distinct being] is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463) is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible.

SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com

What is the purpose of your reference to the Talmud? Do you have a particular folio or tractate in mind? I have no argument with Job 9:2

Try, try, again to answer the references and the verses I posted.

I did, read my previous post, quoted above.

If it wasn't the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him why do you think Job said that? Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Who does scripture say was testing Job? It was Satan, Job 1:6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 2:1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7.

Now try try again...Are you saying that God did not give the adversary permission to test Job?אֱלֹהִים again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse אֱלֹהִים and accuse Him of being unjust.

Now try try again, read my previous post. I did not say that God did not permit Satan to test Job, I said, "I don't recall Satan asking permission from God." [post=64944649]post #497[/post]

What is the point? because it literally means adversary and has nothing to do with a dis-obedient angel.

I didn't say anything about a disobedient angel. But you have not proved your claim.

The point is that it was God, not one of your devils, that tested Job.

The book of Job does not say that God tested Job, and I said nothing about devils doing anything.

This is from the Bible too check your out of context cross reference, it says it is God who tests, not your non-existant superstitious superhuman spirit devil
… let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)

Your out-of-context proof text does NOT say that "only" God tests, and it does not say that someone or something other than God does not test men.

God does not mention a satan but says you should rule over your own sin.
Genesis 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? (7) If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

Out-of-context proof text. Irrelevant to this discussion

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation (Amos 3, 64, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas. "McClintock Biblical Encyclopedia."
How do you not support that quote? What is your answer then or do you wish to side-step it again?

How do you support that quote? My answer is, read the Jewish Encyclopedia, Satan article, that I posted. Jewish scholars documenting what the ancient Jews believed, which trumps your scholars.

In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 Μacc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (δαιμόνιa), while they never refer to Σαταν. "Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature." The question is how do you answer that statement? what is your answer?

What is it you think I should answer? If you want me to answer something make an assertion, ask a question and quote scripture to support your assertion. Do not just copy/paste something from some random source and demand that I reply to it. I do not care what does or does not occur in non-canonical books such as 2 Macc, Tobias, and Baruch.

What is the point? Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, No devil, nothing between him and his Maker.

Your proof text does not say what you claim it does. It does not refer to Satan.

JPS Job 9:32 For He is not a man, as I am, that I should answer Him, that we should come together in judgment.
Job 9:33 There is no arbiter betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.​

Satan never performed the functions of a judge, an umpire or an arbiter, Job 9:33 does not refer to Satan.

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra KJV, ESV, Pulpit Commentary, Gill's Exposition, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.

He rather says that there was no one above God, or no umpire uninterested in the controversy, before whom the cause could be argued, and who would be competent to decide the matter in issue between him and his Maker. Barnes' Notes

Satan never performed the functions of umpire or arbiter, therefore your proof text Job 9:33 does not, cannot refer to Satan.

It also seems liked you skipped over these verses when you smelled the smoke of God's anger.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away . . .

I skipped over nothing, you have never made any point concerning the out-of-context proof texts for me to respond to. How many times do I have to show that Psalm 37 does not refer to man’s eternal fate but what happens to Israel’s enemies on the field of battle?

. . . Long list of out-of-context proof texts omitted . . .

If you want me to address something make an assertion, quote scripture you think supports that assertion, then ask a question. A long list of scripture without any comment by you does not tell me anything. For example see your proof text Job 9:33, above.

Job 9:32 For He is not a man, as I am, that I should answer Him, that we should come together in judgment.
Job 9:33 There is no arbiter betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.​

My reply to your assertion, “Satan never performed the functions of judge, umpire or arbiter, therefore your proof text, Job 9:33, does not, cannot refer to Satan.”
 
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Now try try again, read my previous post. I did not say that God did not permit Satan to test Job, I said, "I don't recall Satan asking permission from God." [post=64944649]post #497[/post]
Originally Posted by Der Alter View Post Yes, funny. Despite all the snide little smiley faces. I don't recall Satan asking permission from God. Originally Posted by Der Alter View Post What some people might say, is irrelevant! What does the Bible say? There is no implied level of cooperation between God and the devil.[/quote]
NOW try again to answer the references and the verses I posted.

If it wasn't the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him why do you think Job said As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; "..."for the hand of God hath touched me."?
Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

at the hand of a righteous God/SIZE], (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive dispensation (Amos 3, 64)

Are you saying that God did not give the adversary permission to test Job?
אֱלֹהִים again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse אֱלֹהִים and accuse Him of being unjust.

אֱלֹהִים was careful, however, to again set limits on what the adversary could do to Job and said, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life”.

What is the point? because it literally means adversary and has nothing to do with a dis-obedient angel.The name/title Satan is self explanatory of the holder’s fault because it literally means adversary in the ancient semitic language that it was originally recorded. The Lore of the Light-Bearer," G. L. Bartholomew
Who does scripture say was testing Job? It was Satan, Job 1:6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 2:1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7.
Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

at the hand of a righteous God/SIZE], (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive dispensation (Amos 3, 64)

How do you support that quote? My answer is, read the Jewish Encyclopedia, Satan article
The point is that it was God, not one of your devils, that tested Job.
Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.

What out of context cross reference,? it says it is God who tests, not your non-existant superstitious superhuman spirit devil
… let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)

God says you should rule over your own sin and mentions nothing about your non-existant superstitious superhuman spirit devil..
Genesis 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? (7) If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." Jas 1:14 But every one is tempted, drawn away, and enticed by his own lust;
Jas 1:15 then lust, having conceived, gives birth to sin; but sin fully completed brings forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. Hebrews regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation (Amos 3, 64

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas.
McClintock Biblical Encyclopedia."

Earlier, indeed, a Satan, so called by way of eminence, occasionally appears as the malicious author of human misfortune, but only under the divine superintendence: e. g. incites David to a sinful act, (1 Chron. 21, 1); casts suspicions upon Job's piety (Job 1, 6' sq.), and, with Jehovah's permission, inflicts upon him a lot gradually more severe to the utmost point of endurance; appears as the mendacious impeacher (α κατηυωρ, Rev. 12, 10) οf the high-priest Joshua before the angel of God, but draws upon himself the divine malediction (Zech. 3, 1 sq.).

Yet in all this he is as little like the Ahriman of the Zend Aνesta (Rhode, Heil. Sage, p. 182 sq.; Matthai, Religionsgloube d. Apostel, II, i, 171 sq.; Creuzer, Symbol. i. 705) as an indifferent prosecuting attorney general or judicial suρerintendent commissioned by Jehovah.
In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 Μacc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (δαιμόνιa), while they never refer to Σαταν. "Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature."
So you cannot rebut that statement?

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God.

This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.
Jewish Encyclopedia-Satan-In the Bible.
What is it you think I should answer? I do not care what does or does not occur in non-canonical books such as 2 Macc, Tobias, and Baruch.
So you have no rebuttal? Then you must have accepted what I quoted.
Your proof text does not say what you claim it does. It does not refer to Satan.Satan never performed the functions of a judge, an umpire or an arbiter, Job 9:33 does not refer to Satan.
Where did you get that idea?
Do you have any rebuttal to show that it means some other thing? What is the point? Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, No devil, nothing between him and his Maker.
Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra RV; KJV, ESV, Pulpit Commentary, Gill's Exposition, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.

He rather says that there was no one above God, [daysman] diem dicere, i.e., to fix a day for hearing a cause. Such an one is empowered by mutual consent to decide the cause, and to "lay his hand", i.e., to impose his authority, on both, and enforce his sentence. uninterested in the controversy, before whom the cause could be argued, and who would be competent to decide the matter in issue between him and his Maker. Barnes' Notes
I skipped over nothing, you have never made any point concerning the out-of-context proof texts for me to respond to. If you want me to address something make an assertion, quote scripture
See if you can answer these simple statements from the Bible and tell me what each one says happens to the wicked when they die?Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. *NOTE: Especially if it comes to the smoke in their eyes.
They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
 
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Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

for ever and ever:
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

The Greek word here actually means and age... They shall be tormented day and night for ages and ages. (reference of time, not eternity)

Notice how you have deceptively chosen one definition and ignored the rest. The definition as yhou posted it also says, perpetuity, eternal, forever, evermore, without end.

Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Here "for ever" meant 3 days and 3 nights

Do you think that a panic stricken man inside a large fish, at the point of death, is going to be speaking coherently, logically? Jonah's use of the word olam, forever does not prove that it does not mean eternal unending, etc.

Deu 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever

Here it means 10 generations

1Sa 1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.

Here it is however long Hannah will live. (see also Exo 21:6)

56 times in the Bible "for ever" refers to something that has already ended.

And that does not prrove that the Hebrew word olam does not mean forever, eternal, uinending! It is called hyperbole.

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does life eternal only last for an age then it ends? What happens then?

Gen_17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

... didn't Israel go 1500 years (?) without possessing their land?

Did God ever revoke Gen 17:8?

Lev_16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Where is this statue[sic] today?

Did God ever revoke this statute?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

perish:
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Note that perish means to be completely destroyed. If those who believe in Jesus will NOT perish, that means that those who don't WILL perish, be completely destroyed.

Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. So, now let us look at the complete definition.

Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those definitions and the complete definition from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, which is available online.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

BAG Lexicon online

If you can prove any of this wrong then your comment in the other thread about knowledge of Greek and Hebrew might be valid. As it is the truth is the truth, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. And that is what you should be searching for, the truth.

Ezekiel 18:4,20 both state that a soul that sins shall die. DIE, not rot in hell for eternity.

In both verses soul = person.

Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

This is completely contradictory to an "eternal punishment"

Nonsense, Psalm 37 refers to what happens to Israel's enemies on the field of battle, not man's eternal fate.

Funny, wasn't Satan the first one to try to convince that sinners wouldn't really die? (Gen 3:4) If hell is eternal where no one will perish, that would mean that Satan told the truth and that God lied when he told Eve that she would "surely die"

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death. It is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment.

Now Let's Talk About Justice.

Would you consider it "just" for God to punish someone for ETERNITY for such a minuscule time on Earth? So making the wrong decision in 60-80 yrs of life will justly grant you punishment BEYOND millions and billions of years?

Would you consider it "just" for Adolf Hitler to get the same punishment as someone who never killed and was a "good" person?

1)How could a "just" God punish for eternity?

Your personal, finite, fallible understanding of "justice." Not God's and not supported by scripture.

2)Where do we see evidence of an eternal hell (or punishment) in the scriptures? (hint: hell isn't even the lake of fire (Rev 20:14))

I believe the lost will be cast into hell for a TIME. After that time is up, they will be destroyed.

side note: to me, "Eternal Hell" sounds like something made up by a church to scare people into believing.

If, as you say , "'Eternal Hell' sounds like something made up by a church to scare people into believing" can you explain how and why the Jews, before and during the time of Jesus, believed in a place of unending fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol.

You "believe the lost will be cast into hell for a TIME. After that time is up, they will be destroyed." Where does scripture explicitly say this? Why do some people spend some time in the LOF then they are destroyed? Wasn't Jesus' sacrifice on the cross enough?
 
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Notice how you have deceptively chosen one definition and ignored the rest. The definition as yhou posted it also says, perpetuity, eternal, forever, evermore, without end.



Do you think that a panic stricken man inside a large fish, at the point of death, is going to be speaking coherently, logically? Jonah's use of the word olam, forever does not prove that it does not mean eternal unending, etc.



And that does not prrove that the Hebrew word olam does not mean forever, eternal, uinending! It is called hyperbole.



Does life eternal only last for an age then it ends? What happens then?



Did God ever revoke Gen 17:8?



Did God ever revoke this statute?



Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. So, now let us look at the complete definition.

Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those definitions and the complete definition from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, which is available online.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

BAG Lexicon online

If you can prove any of this wrong then your comment in the other thread about knowledge of Greek and Hebrew might be valid. As it is the truth is the truth, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. And that is what you should be searching for, the truth.



In both verses soul = person.



Nonsense, Psalm 37 refers to what happens to Israel's enemies on the field of battle, not man's eternal fate.



All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death. It is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment.



Your personal, finite, fallible understanding of "justice." Not God's and not supported by scripture.



If, as you say , "'Eternal Hell' sounds like something made up by a church to scare people into believing" can you explain how and why the Jews, before and during the time of Jesus, believed in a place of unending fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol.

You "believe the lost will be cast into hell for a TIME. After that time is up, they will be destroyed." Where does scripture explicitly say this? Why do some people spend some time in the LOF then they are destroyed? Wasn't Jesus' sacrifice on the cross enough?

I believe that gehinnom, is, will be, and always was a valley near Jarusalem. The bible has stories of atrocities committed within its lands - murders, child sacrifices, etc etc. Thus I imagine it's a place of shame for the jews, a bit like Iraq or Afghanistan might be for Americans, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki might be for Oppenheimer etc etc.

It's a place renowned for the horrible history it has, and it's also the valley outside Jarusalem's gates where sinners would come to immediately upon exile, since it is geographically close to the gates.

Thus, for Jesus to say that someone end in Gehinnom is to say 'remember. And be careful of your sins, because gehinnom isn't too far away'.

It has a dual point. A place of shame, embarrassment and exile, thus, beware your actions for what they may produce, and also a place which is literally, geographically close to Jarusalem, thus 'look, it is near and you could easily end there'.

While that message was pertinent for the jews of the days of Jesus, and they would understand what it means as a spiritual point that Jesus was making, it's also pertinent for us because we can imagine that the 'Jarusalem' is the place we wish to abode to follow Jesus. The 'Jarusalem' is the 'spiritual home', where we are 'meant' to be.

Shoel, I think is the grave, abode of the dead, where Jesus 'preached for three days'. Shoel and gehenna are two separate things I believe.

The temple is the individual mind. 'God's temple is within you, because you are the temple'.

Jesus destroys the temple, brings it to its foundations and rebuilds it in three days, so I'm told.

gehinnom is not a fiery eternal torture used as a means to instate fear in my eyes, but a metaphor based on a real geographical location used to inspire mindfullness in the listener.

As far as language is concerned, I think that literal meaning is very, very little in philosophical or spiritual conversation, since terms are used to describe things for which a literal term is not inherently existent.

For instance, if I say to you, 'I sewed the seed in his head'.

Literally that means I took the reproductive means of a plant and buried it in somebody's brain.

If I say to you, watch out or you'll end up in the dog house, I'm literally saying that you need to use your eyes in order to see your surroundings, or else you'll magically vanish into a kennel.

If Jesus says 'beware him who can ruin both soul and body in gehenna', then that literally means that God will destroy a metaphysical part of man which man has no power to keep and also destroy the flesh of men in the valley of hinnom outside jarusalem.

Now, that brings up a number of questions. Why would God choose the valley of hinnom? And why would God destroy all a man forever, when he has promised otherwise in many parts of the bible? Likewise, a soul is never described to be a separate part of man that vanishes from him or comes apart from him. Men will rise at the judgement in bodies, just like Jesus did, since Jesus is the first to rise and we shall rise LIKE HIM. The 'soul', then, like many things, is a term used in common speech in order to try to conceptualize 'the center'. The place of all motive, desire. The seat of affections. The place from whence perspective comes.

I don't view it literally. If you are exiled from 'jarusalem', which we'll take in this instance as the 'place we want to be' (the spiritual jarusalem, we'll call it), then you end in exile, and in gehenna. Thus, your spirit may be brought low, your body may thirst and hunger. Your desire may be destroyed and your self may be relinquished. You may become as but a shell of a man. you may die in more senses than one.

To be shamed and exiled and exposed is a thing that would bring understanding of wrong, change perspective, shift mindsets, move mountains.

Yet, I cannot see that this 'hell' idea is what Jesus meant at all. The valleyof hinnom is a real place, thus, to use it in conversation would be to ackniwledge its existence as a real place and since we cannot be in heaven in your eyes, until we die, then how can one be in the valley of hinnom and be in your 'hell' (since hell is a part of the kingdom of heaven in the popular christian belief)?

Or to ask another way, how can someone burn for eternity in a non-eternal place that lies barely a few miles outside Jarusalem's walls?

If Jesus wanted to say 'if you're horrible and don't believe in me, then you'll burn in hell (where I will send you) and my father will have built in order for satan to torture you for all eterntiy, or for you to be immortal and in constant agony', then I think Jesus would have just come out and said it.

But when I put it in those words, compared to all of Jesus' actual preachings, it seems rather ridiculous.

No, gehenna is a lesson in mindfullness.
 
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shturt678s

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I believe that gehinnom, is, will be, and always was a valley near Jarusalem. The bible has stories of atrocities committed within its lands - murders, child sacrifices, etc etc. Thus I imagine it's a place of shame for the jews, a bit like Iraq or Afghanistan might be for Americans, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki might be for Oppenheimer etc etc.

It's a place renowned for the horrible history it has, and it's also the valley outside Jarusalem's gates where sinners would come to immediately upon exile, since it is geographically close to the gates.

Thus, for Jesus to say that someone end in Gehinnom is to say 'remember. And be careful of your sins, because gehinnom isn't too far away'.

It has a dual point. A place of shame, embarrassment and exile, thus, beware your actions for what they may produce, and also a place which is literally, geographically close to Jarusalem, thus 'look, it is near and you could easily end there'.

While that message was pertinent for the jews of the days of Jesus, and they would understand what it means as a spiritual point that Jesus was making, it's also pertinent for us because we can imagine that the 'Jarusalem' is the place we wish to abode to follow Jesus. The 'Jarusalem' is the 'spiritual home', where we are 'meant' to be.

Shoel, I think is the grave, abode of the dead, where Jesus 'preached for three days'. Shoel and gehenna are two separate things I believe.

Sheol is used in the wide sense, that is, at death all men go to the grave. Used in the narrow sense peculiarly applied to the wicked, for example, Lk.16:22, etc. :idea:

T
he temple is the individual mind. 'God's temple is within you, because you are the temple'.

Jesus destroys the temple, brings it to its foundations and rebuilds it in three days, so I'm told.

"destroy the sanctuary," ie, wherever one sees naos render "Sanctuary". :o

gehinnom is not a fiery eternal torture used as a means to instate fear in my eyes, but a metaphor based on a real geographical location used to inspire mindfullness in the listener.

As far as language is concerned, I think that literal meaning is very, very little in philosophical or spiritual conversation, since terms are used to describe things for which a literal term is not inherently existent.

For instance, if I say to you, 'I sewed the seed in his head'.

Literally that means I took the reproductive means of a plant and buried it in somebody's brain.

If I say to you, watch out or you'll end up in the dog house, I'm literally saying that you need to use your eyes in order to see your surroundings, or else you'll magically vanish into a kennel.

If Jesus says 'beware him who can ruin both soul and body in gehenna', then that literally means that God will destroy a metaphysical part of man which man has no power to keep and also destroy the flesh of men in the valley of hinnom outside jarusalem.

Now, that brings up a number of questions. Why would God choose the valley of hinnom? And why would God destroy all a man forever, when he has promised otherwise in many parts of the bible? Likewise, a soul is never described to be a separate part of man that vanishes from him or comes apart from him. Men will rise at the judgement in bodies, just like Jesus did, since Jesus is the first to rise and we shall rise LIKE HIM. The 'soul', then, like many things, is a term used in common speech in order to try to conceptualize 'the center'. The place of all motive, desire. The seat of affections. The place from whence perspective comes.

I don't view it literally. If you are exiled from 'jarusalem', which we'll take in this instance as the 'place we want to be' (the spiritual jarusalem, we'll call it), then you end in exile, and in gehenna. Thus, your spirit may be brought low, your body may thirst and hunger. Your desire may be destroyed and your self may be relinquished. You may become as but a shell of a man. you may die in more senses than one.

To be shamed and exiled and exposed is a thing that would bring understanding of wrong, change perspective, shift mindsets, move mountains.

Yet, I cannot see that this 'hell' idea is what Jesus meant at all. The valleyof hinnom is a real place, thus, to use it in conversation would be to ackniwledge its existence as a real place and since we cannot be in heaven in your eyes, until we die, then how can one be in the valley of hinnom and be in your 'hell' (since hell is a part of the kingdom of heaven in the popular christian belief)?

Or to ask another way, how can someone burn for eternity in a non-eternal place that lies barely a few miles outside Jarusalem's walls?

If Jesus wanted to say 'if you're horrible and don't believe in me, then you'll burn in hell (where I will send you) and my father will have built in order for satan to torture you for all eterntiy, or for you to be immortal and in constant agony', then I think Jesus would have just come out and said it.

But when I put it in those words, compared to all of Jesus' actual preachings, it seems rather ridiculous.

No, gehenna is a lesson in mindfullness.

Old Jack

btw "Gehenna of the fire" just another designation for hell. :o
 
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Mediate

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A few people have asked me on this forum, that if I believe that God brings all people to liberation in the end, then to what effect is anything we do in this life? Or what is the point of any of the teachings? As have several people outside the forum.

I often say that God's justice is beyond our justice, that God's love transcends ours, that God created us and thus God has planned to save us. And often, I get the same comment. 'Then we might as-well live as we please'. Or I get a response based on another's views, just as, inherently, are the thousands upon thousands of different interpretations out there, and admittedly, as are mine. Subjectivity of perspective.

And I want to ask you all something, all of you who ask me 'what is the point then?', in response, a response that it has taken me some time to find the words for.

If I say that god is beyond good and evil, that it is truly man who is trapped in such a deluded state of duality, yet not God, how is that the same as saying that it's okay to do whatever we like? Should we not aspire to not be entrapped by such views, just as God is not entrapped? Should we not learn to think as the God transcendent of such duality wishes us to think?

God takes no pleasure in suffering, yet those so sure of their dual mindset of 'those and us', would wish it upon those, and not us.

If we think without duality, and transcend these things, then we no longer pit ourselves against what we imagine as 'foes', but rather apply ourselves to helping what we realize are 'family'.

This is why I ask that question.

To say that God's perspective should be considered as a perspective transcendent of the categorizations created by our human delusions, and that it should be beyond attaching things to it and compartmentalizing it, is not the same as saying that there is no difference between thoughtful action and thoughtless action.

Those who do harm, will be led by unhealthy thirst and desire, and left with woes, and those who do good, will have compassion as their companions. Thus, we should stay ourselves from doing evils, and partake in things that lead to peace, and thus happiness. That cultivation of compassion should not only extend to whom we so desire to give it, because such a foundation is not whole and sturdy.

For instance, to what end does a man's 'belief' (which he professes by mouth) have any benefit for him if his thoughts and actions are full of tangled and twisted things?

What is the virtue of forgiveness worth if it is only conditional? Is that not then the same as someone who hits someone else and will not be forgiven unless he cleans the wound? Where is turning the other cheek?

Where is peace when one's true desires (for those who 'deserve it' to have just desserts) are restrained under a lying pretense of abundant forgiveness and non-malevolence?

Where is your peace?

This is why I am always saying that to realize complete compassion dispels such suffering within a person, and allows a person to clearly see what is truly outside them.

As Jesus says 'The kingdom will not be something we look at and point, saying 'there it is', for it is within you, then it is outside you. When you understand yourselves, then you shall be known, and you shall then realize that you are children of the living father'.
 
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shturt678s

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A few people have asked me on this forum, that if I believe that God brings all people to liberation in the end, then to what effect is anything we do in this life? Or what is the point of any of the teachings? As have several people outside the forum.

I often say that God's justice is beyond our justice, that God's love transcends ours, that God created us and thus God has planned to save us. And often, I get the same comment. 'Then we might as-well live as we please'. Or I get a response based on another's views, just as, inherently, are the thousands upon thousands of different interpretations out there, and admittedly, as are mine. Subjectivity of perspective.

And I want to ask you all something, all of you who ask me 'what is the point then?', in response, a response that it has taken me some time to find the words for.

If I say that god is beyond good and evil, that it is truly man who is trapped in such a deluded state of duality, yet not God, how is that the same as saying that it's okay to do whatever we like? Should we not aspire to not be entrapped by such views, just as God is not entrapped? Should we not learn to think as the God transcendent of such duality wishes us to think?

God takes no pleasure in suffering, yet those so sure of their dual mindset of 'those and us', would wish it upon those, and not us.

If we think without duality, and transcend these things, then we no longer pit ourselves against what we imagine as 'foes', but rather apply ourselves to helping what we realize are 'family'.

This is why I ask that question.

To say that God's perspective should be considered as a perspective transcendent of the categorizations created by our human delusions, and that it should be beyond attaching things to it and compartmentalizing it, is not the same as saying that there is no difference between thoughtful action and thoughtless action.

Those who do harm, will be led by unhealthy thirst and desire, and left with woes, and those who do good, will have compassion as their companions. Thus, we should stay ourselves from doing evils, and partake in things that lead to peace, and thus happiness. That cultivation of compassion should not only extend to whom we so desire to give it, because such a foundation is not whole and sturdy.

For instance, to what end does a man's 'belief' (which he professes by mouth) have any benefit for him if his thoughts and actions are full of tangled and twisted things?

What is the virtue of forgiveness worth if it is only conditional? Is that not then the same as someone who hits someone else and will not be forgiven unless he cleans the wound? Where is turning the other cheek?

Where is peace when one's true desires (for those who 'deserve it' to have just desserts) are restrained under a lying pretense of abundant forgiveness and non-malevolence?

Where is your peace?

This is why I am always saying that to realize complete compassion dispels such suffering within a person, and allows a person to clearly see what is truly outside them.

As Jesus says 'The kingdom will not be something we look at and point, saying 'there it is', for it is within you, then it is outside you. When you understand yourselves, then you shall be known, and you shall then realize that you are children of the living father'.

:thumbsup:

The peace within me came from having the Kingdom of God unveiled in the still veiled Parables in Matt.13:3-44. Once I knew I was in the Kingdom of God God's way, the rest was down hill from there where the peace has been growing ever since. One cannot help but agape the Kingdom of God.
:amen:

Old refutable Jack
 
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:thumbsup:

The peace within me came from having the Kingdom of God unveiled in the still veiled Parables in Matt.13:3-44. Once I knew I was in the Kingdom of God God's way, the rest was down hill from there where the peace has been growing ever since. One cannot help but agape the Kingdom of God.
:amen:

Old refutable Jack

There is a difference between knowing to invest in the pearl when it comes, and seeing that pearl shine for yourself.

JEsus said to them 'if they ask you from where you come, tell them that you come from the light, from where the light came into being, established, and into its image'. If they should ask you if it is you, tell them that you are its children, children of the father. If they should say 'where is the evidence that you are of the father', explain to them 'it is but movement and repose'.


All the teachings pivot on this one thing, Jack, if I may call you that;

'love your neighbour as though yourself'.

By loving our neighbour, we love God.

By viewing our neighbour as ourselves, we dispel exclusivity, prejudice, hatred, in leiu of oneness, of empathy.

By empathy we realize that we are not important above another. Thus we have humility in the face of others.

With humility we dispel pride. With the dispelling of pride we understand that pride drove us many ways.

By beginning to understand all this, we soon see that error is not simply a matter of choice, but only when the light shines is the world illuminated enough to truly read the errors.

The blind stumble. Certainly I wouldn't want to torture them because of it.
 
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shturt678s

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There is a difference between knowing to invest in the pearl when it comes, and seeing that pearl shine for yourself.

JEsus said to them 'if they ask you from where you come, tell them that you come from the light, from where the light came into being, established, and into its image'. If they should ask you if it is you, tell them that you are its children, children of the father. If they should say 'where is the evidence that you are of the father', explain to them 'it is but movement and repose'.


All the teachings pivot on this one thing, Jack, if I may call you that;

'love your neighbour as though yourself'.

By loving our neighbour, we love God.

By viewing our neighbour as ourselves, we dispel exclusivity, prejudice, hatred, in leiu of oneness, of empathy.

By empathy we realize that we are not important above another. Thus we have humility in the face of others.

With humility we dispel pride. With the dispelling of pride we understand that pride drove us many ways.

By beginning to understand all this, we soon see that error is not simply a matter of choice, but only when the light shines is the world illuminated enough to truly read the errors.

The blind stumble. Certainly I wouldn't want to torture them because of it.

Yes, old Jack wiith a head's up, ie, Faith is and must be first, agape is and must be second. A vaild faith produces a valid agape, ie, no reversal.
:idea:

Only because your O.K. Matt.3:44 unveiled shows how the Kingdom of God is acquired. :o

Old undressing parables Jack :thumbsup:
 
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donfish06

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If it wasn't the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him why do you think Job said that?[/B] Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Have you never blamed God for something that wasn't his fault? Just because Job blamed God, doesn't mean that it was God. Yes, God ALLOWED IT, but it wasn't his angel, it was Satan. God corrected Job at the end of the book on a lot of matters, if I recall correctly, so clearly Job did not have a 100% correct grasp on God.
 
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Yes, old Jack wiith a head's up, ie, Faith is and must be first, agape is and must be second. A vaild faith produces a valid agape, ie, no reversal.
:idea:
Only because your O.K. Matt.3:44 unveiled shows how the Kingdom of God is acquired. :o

Old undressing parables Jack :thumbsup:

Being 'faithful' just means having 'fidelity', being true to God, a choice. Faith doesn't mean 'belief', faith means way of life.. It isn't some notion based on specific scriptural interpretation that gives some mystical, unbeknownst key to those who have the right order of ritual profession down to a tee.

It's not something you can use as an argument, this first and second. What does it matter? each is useless without the other. It's not something you can profess thereby making it true.

faith and love are inseparable. They are part of one and the same thing.

I feel you're using a cryptic western argument that allows a person to believe they have faith in God and have received some magical possession-gift simply by the placing of words that are fashioned into a system like a sequence of numbers being called out on the lottery. It's just something synonymous with popular opinion.

What's real is the hand that feeds and the heart that loves doing it. That's faith.
 
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he-man

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Notice how you have deceptively chosen one definition and ignored the rest.
Also Notice how you have deceptively chosen one definition and ignored the rest.
The word ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, 1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ;
BAG Lexicon online

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. *NOTE: Especially if it comes to the smoke in their eyes.

They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:[/COLOR="DarkRed"] coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
 
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shturt678s

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Being 'faithful' just means having 'fidelity', being true to God, a choice. Faith doesn't mean 'belief', faith means way of life.. It isn't some notion based on specific scriptural interpretation that gives some mystical, unbeknownst key to those who have the right order of ritual profession down to a tee.

It's not something you can use as an argument, this first and second. What does it matter? each is useless without the other. It's not something you can profess thereby making it true.


Faith: A trust in God's promise that is centered in the Genuine Lord Jesus Christ produced by the Triune God. :thumbsup:

faith and love are inseparable. They are part of one and the same thing.

I feel you're using a cryptic western argument that allows a person to believe they have faith in God and have received some magical possession-gift simply by the placing of words that are fashioned into a system like a sequence of numbers being called out on the lottery. It's just something synonymous with popular opinion.

What's real is the hand that feeds and the heart that loves doing it. That's faith.

We can agree to disagree :idea:

Always appreciate you and your words,

Old Jack
 
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Der Alte

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Also Notice how you have deceptively chosen one definition and ignored the rest. . . .

Wrong as usual. I did not choose one definition, as you did i.e "destroy.." Were you to actually read my post you would see that I listed 35 different meanings for apollumi, and for, at least, the third time you have ignored them.

When you extend to me the simple courtesy of reading and responding to my posts in full and not repeating the same post over and over, while ignoring my responses to the same post, then I will extend to you the same courtesy. Quoting a dozen scriptures +/- over and over is not discussion.
 
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Der Alte

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Have you never blamed God for something that wasn't his fault? Just because Job blamed God, doesn't mean that it was God. Yes, God ALLOWED IT, but it wasn't his angel, it was Satan. God corrected Job at the end of the book on a lot of matters, if I recall correctly, so clearly Job did not have a 100% correct grasp on God.

I agree with you. There is a difference between a prophet speaking "Thus saith the Lord" and what Job was saying. I have pointed out that in Chapters 1-2 scriptures says about 9 times that it was satan who tested Job, not God, just because Job said it was once. In the midst of all the calamities that happened to Job I don't think we could expect him to be completely rational. How many people today who, when something terrible happens, they blame God. And when all the smoke has cleared it is revealed that the calamity happened because of their, or someone else's, actions/inactions, inattention, etc.
 
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HIM_In_Me_In_HIM

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....Faith, like Grace, like Truth, like LOVE...." is a many splendid thing (word)."
[i.e., it does NOT "...just means..." one thing, one interpretation, as the context it is being used in & the "lesson" Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh is "teaching" you is of primary importance to your learning/understanding]

When a true "child of light" (one who believes in the divinity of Yeshua Ha Meshach and places his trust in Him for all things ordained by Father God) prays, meditates, reads the scriptures with H>S> leading, his spirit becomes "quickened" and he begins to "see"/understand things in such a way that black ink & human "intellect" alone cannot fathom.

This same "child" (et al) can error, at times, when becoming "excited" or "puffed-up" based upon their own intellect, abilities, "accomplishments." Perhaps you know of someone like this in your life (circles). If not, the bible is full of examples you need to make yourself aware of.

There is more to be said, but as is written: "sin is not ended by the multiplying of words..." [Pro 10:19] or better still for "true children of light":

ברב דברים לא יחדל־פשע וחשך שפתיו משכיל׃


Jesus IS Lord.

Selah

:idea:[Pro 10:19]
 
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HIM_In_Me_In_HIM

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he-man

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Wrong as usual. I did not choose one definition, as you did i.e "destroy.
Okay, let's discuss that one definition.

The word ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT.
(a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; .

a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ;
BAG Lexicon online

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. *NOTE: Especially if it comes to the smoke in their eyes.

They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:[/COLOR="DarkRed"] coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
 
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