- Aug 21, 2003
- 28,575
- 6,063
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Says who? Talk about evading the question, Try, try, again to answer the verses posted and not attack the poster.
Pointing out errors is not attacking the poster.
If it wasn't the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him why do you think Job said that?Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Nothing in any of my replies can possibly be construed to say the Angel of God was doing anything.
Are you saying that God did not give the adversary permission to test Job?
אֱלֹהִים again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse אֱלֹהִים and accuse Him of being unjust
אֱלֹהִים was careful, however, to again set limits on what the adversary could do to Job and said, Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.
I did not say or imply that God did not give Satan permission to test Job.
The name/title Satan is self explanatory of the holders fault because it literally means adversary in the ancient semitic language that it was originally recorded. The Lore of the Light-Bearer," G. L. Bartholomew
What is your point?
This is from the Bible:
Then the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause. (Job 2:3 NKJV)
Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.
What is your point?
This is from the Bible too check your out of context cross reference, it says it is God who tests, not a superstitious superhuman spirit devil
let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)
I said nothing about "a superstitious superhuman spirit devil." Your proof text does not say that "only" God tests or that people are not tested by something or someone other than God.
The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive disρensation (Amos 3, 64, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas. "McClintock Biblical Encyclopedia." Okay, what is you answer then?
Earlier, indeed, a Satan, so called by way of eminence, occasionally appears as the malicious author of human misfortune, but only under the divine superintendence: e. g. incites David to a sinful act, (1 Chron. 21, 1); casts suspicions upon Job's piety (Job 1, 6' sq.), and, with Jehovah's permission, inflicts upon him a lot gradually more severe to the utmost point of endurance; appears as the mendacious impeacher (α κατηυωρ, Rev. 12, 10) οf the high-priest Joshua before the angel of God, but draws upon himself the divine malediction (Zech. 3, 1 sq.).
Yet in all this he is as little like the Ahriman of the Zend Aνesta (Rhode, Heil. Sage, p. 182 sq.; Matthai, Religionsgloube d. Apostel, II, i, 171 sq.; Creuzer, Symbol. i. 705) as an indifferent prosecuting attorney general or judicial suρerintendent commissioned by Jehovah.
In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 Μacc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (δαιμόνιa), while they never refer to Σαταν. "Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature." Thank you for your help, I could not remember where it came from, so what is your answer?
What is it that you think I should answer? You made no assertion and you asked no question. If I want to know what the Jews believed I go to Jewish sources, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, not a bunch of scholars.
Jewish Encyclopedia-Satan-In the Bible.
Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).
Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463) is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible.
SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).
Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463) is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible.
SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra KJV, ESV, Pulpit Commentary, Gill's Exposition, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.
He rather says that there was no one above God, or no umpire uninterested in the controversy, before whom the cause could be argued, and who would be competent to decide the matter in issue between him and his Maker. Barnes' Notes
What is the purpose of your reference to the Talmud? Do you have a particular folio or tractate in mind? I have no argument with Job 9:2
Upvote
0