Would a drug addict go to heaven?

Tangible · Feb 2, 2014

Lion King said:
That doesn't make sense, but whatever.

Perhaps it doesn't make sense to you because you are working with a faulty understanding of what Baptism actually is. It seems that you persist in understanding Baptism as a work of man done for God out of obedience (law) rather than God's means of giving his gifts of faith in Christ, salvation, the Holy Spirit, etc. (Gospel).

Lion King · Feb 2, 2014

Tangible said:
Perhaps it doesn't make sense to you because you are working with a faulty understanding of what Baptism actually is. It seems that you persist in understanding Baptism as a work of man done for God out of obedience (law) rather than God's means of giving his gifts of faith in Christ, salvation, the Holy Spirit, etc. (Gospel).

If something is a means to salvation, then that something is essential for salvation.

You claim water baptism is given to us as a means for salvation. Well, if water baptism is a way to be saved, then without being baptized in water, one cannot be saved.

ptomwebster · Feb 2, 2014

Jay NotApplicable said:
Would a drug addict go to heaven if he loves Jesus, accepts Him as a necessary sacrifice for the forgiveness of his sins, loves his neighbor as himself, loves his enemies, and tries to live a life serving others the best he can? If being unable to quit using drugs was his only major flaw, would he go to heaven? What about if he was an alcoholic instead of a drug addict? Is there a difference?

What does your Bible say, did you read it?

Tangible · Feb 2, 2014

Lion King said:
If something is a means to salvation, then that something is essential for salvation.

You claim water baptism is given to us as a means for salvation. Well, if water baptism is a way to be saved, then without being baptized in water, one cannot be saved.

What you describe would be a law-based system of salvation. Christianity, on the other hand, is based on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God's power to save sinners.

If there are several means through which God acts to save, then no single specific means is required. All that is required is that God act through his appointed means to subjectively justify a specific sinner, to join him into the objective justification won by Jesus Christ in his death and resurrection.

God acts to save through his Word. That Word can come to us in several different ways, one of which is in and with the water of Holy Baptism.

OrthodoxyUSA · Feb 3, 2014

Lion King said:
If something is a means to salvation, then that something is essential for salvation.

You claim water baptism is given to us as a means for salvation. Well, if water baptism is a way to be saved, then without being baptized in water, one cannot be saved.

non sequitur.

For instance:

1. Young children are not held accountable. Their parents are. The Child has no guilt of it's own until he or she commits an act in knowledge.

2. Christ God saves whom HE will.

3. A soul is only accountable for things 'done'. "Every idle word" as my friend always says, however baptism washes away ALL sin. Even the sins of Adam.

Memory Eternal Father Gregory. Our father among the saints.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

OrthodoxyUSA · Feb 3, 2014

Actor found dead with needle in arm. ~CNN

Was he moving towards theosis? Or moving towards something else? I bet it's easy to snatch away a soul that way.

Be prepared.

Lord have mercy.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Mama Kidogo · Feb 3, 2014

Lion King said:
I understand what you are saying, but you forget that Christ not only came to save sinners but to heal them also. So, if someone says they are saved in Christ, but continue to be addicted to that same drug they were before coming to Christ, are they healed from their sickness?

Jesus said a good tree is known by its fruit. Those who have been saved will also show a change in character and behaviour- from bad to good. Those born of God can no longer live in ignorance as they once did, but are called to be holy as the LORD is holy. This means all the evil things we did in the past are to be put aside.

How we will achieve this?

Simple. By faith in Christ! Put your faith in the LORD and nothing will be impossible to overcome. Addicted to alcohol? Through Christ one will overcome that! Can't stop from adultery? Through the power of God, one can overcome that too!

Nothing is impossible to those who believe.

Addiction to alcohol is one. Drunkards have no place in the Kingdom of God as the Scriptures say.

I agree that Christ offers healing. But not everyone is healed here on earth.
no place for drunkards/ I think He looks after drunkards and fools.
Are we holding to a theology that we are not changed after death? A kind of stuck in a imperfect state?
as no man knows what eternity holds for them self let alone another, best we admit we do not fully comprehend what happens after death. we have scripture and tradition but even they don't begin to explain the fullness of the transformation between earthly life and judgement.All we have to offer others is hope.
I so clearly remember when my husband was a Baptist pastor and an elderly woman had called him as her fifty something son had died of an overdose which appeared to be intentional. Her own pastor refused to do the funeral as it was deemed a suicide. I could tell it was troubling him as he prepared. I asked him if he knew what he was going to say. He said no but he knew what he was going to do: Offer hope to the family.

Lion King · Feb 3, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
I agree that Christ offers healing. But not everyone is healed here on earth.

no place for drunkards/ I think He looks after drunkards and fools.

God also looks after the pagans, witches, murderers, thieves, liars, adulterers, prostitutes etc but there won't be a place for such people in the Kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Are we holding to a theology that we are not changed after death? A kind of stuck in a imperfect state?
as no man knows what eternity holds for them self let alone another, best we admit we do not fully comprehend what happens after death. we have scripture and tradition but even they don't begin to explain the fullness of the transformation between earthly life and judgement.All we have to offer others is hope.

Jesus Christ has already shown us what will happen to those who do not do God's will. Don't really see why we have to offer based on lies.

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! Matthew 7:21-23

I so clearly remember when my husband was a Baptist pastor and an elderly woman had called him as her fifty something son had died of an overdose which appeared to be intentional. Her own pastor refused to do the funeral as it was deemed a suicide. I could tell it was troubling him as he prepared. I asked him if he knew what he was going to say. He said no but he knew what he was going to do: Offer hope to the family.

What was this hope based on?

seeingeyes · Feb 4, 2014

Lion King said:
What was this hope based on?

The grace of our Father as described and demonstrated by His son Jesus Christ.

...What else do we have?

Mama Kidogo · Feb 4, 2014

seeingeyes said:
The grace of our Father as described and demonstrated by His son Jesus Christ.

...What else do we have?

Indeed. Grace is all any of us have. Undeserved, unearned forgiveness.
As I read the sin list Lion King borrowed from St. Paul's letter, I'm seeing a list we are all guilty of.
When someone dies we have and offer hope that before that death God granted a moment to that soul to seek forgiveness. Our Catholic brethren use a concept called purgatory to offer hope. The Baptist offer a blink of an eye conversion. As an Orthodox, I offer no explanation but would still offer hope as we know that God decides not man.
Lilly

Lion King · Feb 4, 2014

seeingeyes said:
The grace of our Father as described and demonstrated by His son Jesus Christ.

...What else do we have?

So this grace of our Father offers hope to all mankind? Walk me through (using Scripture). How does person who intentionally commits suicide by a drug overdose have hope in Christ?

I've always been curious about the consequences of suicide.

Lion King · Feb 4, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
Indeed. Grace is all any of us have. Undeserved, unearned forgiveness.
As I read the sin list Lion King borrowed from St. Paul's letter, I'm seeing a list we are all guilty of.
When someone dies we have and offer hope that before that death God granted a moment to that soul to seek forgiveness. Our Catholic brethren use a concept called purgatory to offer hope. The Baptist offer a blink of an eye conversion. As an Orthodox, I offer no explanation but would still offer hope as we know that God decides not man.
Lilly

Do you believe what Paul wrote to be true, or do you hold to some sort of "universal reconciliation"?

Messy · Feb 4, 2014

Lion King said:
So this grace of our Father offers hope to all mankind? Walk me through (using Scripture). How does person who intentionally commits suicide by a drug overdose have hope in Christ?

I've always been curious about the consequences of suicide.

Oh you can meet Him and ask forgiveness. Checked it out myself.
I thought: I'll first drink and take all the pills and then I'll pray the sinner's prayer, but I got so sleepy, I had to pray quick and then I met Him and got convinced of sin and that I couldn't take the rest of the pills, that would be very hyprocrit and had to call for help. It was a side effect of wrong medical drugs by the way, without it I'd have never done it, although I had suicidal thoughts.

MJohn7 · Feb 4, 2014

Messy said:
although I had suicidal thoughts.

Me too, but the Lord lead me by Pauls wisdom and gave me hope, i stopped thinking like that. I guess i wanted to die to escape suffering, but i wanted to live too. Many people i grew up with didn't escape those thoughts though.

Tarshish · Feb 4, 2014

Lion King said:
God also looks after the pagans, witches, murderers, thieves, liars, adulterers, prostitutes etc but there won't be a place for such people in the Kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Jesus Christ has already shown us what will happen to those who do not do God's will. Don't really see why we have to offer based on lies.

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! Matthew 7:21-23

What was this hope based on?

Do you do everything that the Lord commands as He commands?

Mama Kidogo · Feb 4, 2014

Lion King said:
So this grace of our Father offers hope to all mankind? Walk me through (using Scripture). How does person who intentionally commits suicide by a drug overdose have hope in Christ?

I've always been curious about the consequences of suicide.

At the point of deciding to do such there is no hope found in such a person. What can happen between that time and death is unknown. Our hope is that such a person found a moment lucid and seeks forgiveness or that their insanity is not held against them.
As an ANRP (A nurse who is licensed to prescribe medications) I've worked many hours in a nursing home. I've heard many elderly women with dementia ask male nurses and aids to preform quite graphic sexual acts on them. The families are horrified and often say she never spoke such before the dementia. Do you believe such is held against them by God? Is suicide an act of sanity?

Lion King · Feb 4, 2014

2bvicar said:
Do you do everything that the Lord commands as He commands?

Let's not make this discussion about me. Do you believe what Paul wrote in Galatians 5:19-21 to be true? How about Luke 6:46-49?

Tarshish · Feb 4, 2014

Lion King said:
Let's not make this discussion about me. Do you believe what Paul wrote in Galatians 5:19-21 to be true?

Yes, I do believe it.

Now, my question is very relevant. If you do believe you do everything as the Lord commands as He commands, then you have some praying to do. If not then you aren't, we aren't, in essence, any different that a sincere Christian who is struggling against drugs.

Lion King · Feb 4, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
At the point of deciding to do such there is no hope found in such a person. What can happen between that time and death is unknown. Our hope is that such a person found a moment lucid and seeks forgiveness or that their insanity is not held against them.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

As an ANRP (A nurse who is licensed to prescribe medications) I've worked many hours in a nursing home. I've heard many elderly women with dementia ask male nurses and aids to preform quite graphic sexual acts on them. The families are horrified and often say she never spoke such before the dementia. Do you believe such is held against them by God?

Our God is a just God. Mentally handicapped people are not held guilty of their sins.

Is suicide an act of sanity?

Yes. Judas Iscariot certainly knew what he was doing when he hung himself.

Lion King · Feb 4, 2014

2bvicar said:
Yes, I do believe it.

Now, my question is very relevant. If you do believe you do everything as the Lord commands as He commands, then you have some praying to do. If not then you aren't, we aren't, in essence, any different that a sincere Christian who is struggling against drugs.

So, if you believe that those who are addicted to alcohol (in other words DRUNKARDS) will not enter the Kingdom, why argue against that?

Would a drug addict go to heaven?

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