Judge Orders Pregnant Texas Woman Off Life Support

Sayre said:

This article hit my news feed today:

Family of boy left in vegetative state after car crash gave him a full life for 31 years | News.com.au

31 years in a vegetative state. I know this boy wasn't dead - but he sure didn't have a quality of life.

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Do you really think that is for *you* to say? The only quality of life ANY of us have any right to judge and comment on is our own.

PreachersWife2004 said:

Your quality of life is not someone else's quality of life.

Yes, let's kill people who can't move. How thoughtful of you.

You'd have them starve him to death? Exactly how were they supposed to let him die?

I wish others could see that. This person was alive but he apparently doesn't fit others' definitions. It makes me sick, actually, that people actually talk about how this kid should've been dead. :o

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All this. QFT.

Also, for anyone who is interested, there is a documentary on PBS (my PBS station, anyway) tonight about Stephen Hawking. I think some people posting here ought to watch it, all the while wishing they had his genius of a mind.

FreeSpirit74 said:

All this. QFT.

Also, for anyone who is interested, there is a documentary on PBS (my PBS station, anyway) tonight about Stephen Hawking. I think some people posting here ought to watch it, all the while wishing they had his genius of a mind.

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Funny, I didn't realize that Stephen Hawking was in a vegetative state... He sure writes a lot of papers and comes up with a lot of brilliant ideas for someone who has no higher brain activity.

No question he's significantly physically disabled, but he's not even close to vegetative mentally. That being said, if Hawking lost the ability to communicate (and doctors fear he will one day), and he wanted to end his life at that point, the man should be given the right to.

FreeSpirit74 said:

All this. QFT.

Also, for anyone who is interested, there is a documentary on PBS (my PBS station, anyway) tonight about Stephen Hawking. I think some people posting here ought to watch it, all the while wishing they had his genius of a mind.

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Stephen Hawking has neuro-muscular dystrophy. This is not the same thing at all to that of a vegetative state.

^^^ I never said he was, but since people seem to think they have the right to comment and judge whether they feel that someone else has "quality of life" or not, I bring him up as a reminder that there was a time when people like him would have been cast off by society completely as "lost causes" simply because they can't move or communicate the same as "normal" people can. There are a lot of people in this world who would think he has no "quality of life" even though he is a lot more intelligent and has accomplished more in his life than any professional athlete or Hollywood celebrity or head of state you could name.

FreeSpirit74 said:

All this. QFT.

Also, for anyone who is interested, there is a documentary on PBS (my PBS station, anyway) tonight about Stephen Hawking. I think some people posting here ought to watch it, all the while wishing they had his genius of a mind.

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FreeSpirit74 said:

^^^ I never said he was, but since people seem to think they have the right to comment and judge whether they feel that someone else has "quality of life" or not, I bring him up as a reminder that there was a time when people like him would have been cast off by society completely as "lost causes" simply because they can't move or communicate the same as "normal" people can. There are a lot of people in this world who would think he has no "quality of life" even though he is a lot more intelligent and has accomplished more in his life than any professional athlete or Hollywood celebrity or head of state you could name.

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Cue the "you don't know what a vegetative state is" arguments in 3...2...

My aunt was in a vegetative state for roughly 6 months after being diagnosed with Pick's Disease. She couldn't move around, couldn't talk. But she was still alive. When I'd go see her, and other family members would go see her, she knew we were there. Some people here believe that my aunt would've wanted to be killed over her state, but they'd be wrong. She specified how she wanted to be treated, especially because she knew the chances of slipping into such a state after she was diagnosed. So don't sit there and lay this blanket statement on us that "no one wants to live like that" because there ARE people in this world who would choose life over death, even if that life isn't an ideal perfect life.

FreeSpirit74 said:

^^^ I never said he was, but since people seem to think they have the right to comment and judge whether they feel that someone else has "quality of life" or not, I bring him up as a reminder that there was a time when people like him would have been cast off by society completely as "lost causes" simply because they can't move or communicate the same as "normal" people can. There are a lot of people in this world who would think he has no "quality of life" even though he is a lot more intelligent and has accomplished more in his life than any professional athlete or Hollywood celebrity or head of state you could name.

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The thing you're missing though is that you can ask Stephen Hawking how he feels his quality of life is, and if he wants to continue living. We are talking apples and oranges here, the debate is about people who are brain dead or in persistent vegetative states.

Hawking is disabled, but he's still every bit a person as when he was healthy. By that I mean he can still work, think, communicate and live his life.

Someone in a persistent vegetative state has had their higher brain function permanently destroyed, everything that made that person who they were is gone, and not coming back. Their heart may still be beating, but they are no more. Brain dead is even worse, then they are actually physically dead.

It's completely different scenarios from Hawking, who is merely paralyzed.

Someone needs to grow up. When they don't know what a vegetative state is they need to admit it rather than levy sarcasm at those who do.
It is the adult thing to do.

Anderson Cooper interviews Marlise Munoz’s family, plight of preborn child ignored

Forest Wolf said:

Someone needs to grow up. When they don't know what a vegetative state is they need to admit it rather than levy sarcasm at those who do.
It is the adult thing to do.

Anderson Cooper interviews Marlise Munoz’s family, plight of preborn child ignored

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I'm not sure who you're addressing the whole "grow up" thing to, but I do not find it surprising that Anderson Cooper sideswipes the whole "she was pregnant" thing.

This woman was braindead. I get that. I fully support the family in their wishes to disconnect her from life support.

EXCEPT...she was pregnant. Then it's no longer just about her. No one can really know what she would've wanted in that situation because the only thing she ever talked about (and didn't write down) was that she didn't want to be kept on life support. So the wife didn't really have a voice and nor did the unborn child.

PreachersWife2004 said:

I'm not sure who you're addressing the whole "grow up" thing to, but I do not find it surprising that Anderson Cooper sideswipes the whole "she was pregnant" thing.

This woman was braindead. I get that. I fully support the family in their wishes to disconnect her from life support.

EXCEPT...she was pregnant. Then it's no longer just about her. No one can really know what she would've wanted in that situation because the only thing she ever talked about (and didn't write down) was that she didn't want to be kept on life support. So the wife didn't really have a voice and nor did the unborn child.

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Ah, so the main problem is that she didn't specify what to do in the case she was pregnant? That's a massive dilemma for her family, not knowing if her wishes may have changed considering her status as with child.

PreachersWife2004 said:

I'm not sure who you're addressing the whole "grow up" thing to, but I do not find it surprising that Anderson Cooper sideswipes the whole "she was pregnant" thing.

This woman was braindead. I get that. I fully support the family in their wishes to disconnect her from life support.

EXCEPT...she was pregnant. Then it's no longer just about her. No one can really know what she would've wanted in that situation because the only thing she ever talked about (and didn't write down) was that she didn't want to be kept on life support. So the wife didn't really have a voice and nor did the unborn child.

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What you don't appear to understand is that in Texas the law says it doesn't matter if she did write her wishes down.
And her baby was not viable.
The family said in the AC interview that they find peace knowing that their daughter was there in Heaven to greet her baby girl when she finally arrived home.
And the mother of this poor woman said that while tending her in hospital as she was kept alive by machines, that she could smell the death on her. Because she was deteriorating before their eyes being that she had been dead since November.

The baby was therefore housed inside a corpse. Deformed due to lack of oxygen because her mother was oxygen deprived for who knows how long prior to being found.

The best thing that happened to these two precious lives is that they were let go because they were no longer living.

Opinions don't really matter now. They're gone. Now what is about to be realized is who we all are when we argue what should be done with other peoples suffering just to make us happy.

I find the whole thing to be absolutely bone-chilling. Probably because I read the Dune books when I was little, and there was this whole planet of men who kept the women brain-dead and alive only to serve as incubators.

Supreme said:

Ah, so the main problem is that she didn't specify what to do in the case she was pregnant? That's a massive dilemma for her family, not knowing if her wishes may have changed considering her status as with child.

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I think it's more than that. I believe that when there's an unborn child involved Texas law can still override that.

Forest Wolf said:

What you don't appear to understand is that in Texas the law says it doesn't matter if she did write her wishes down.

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I understand it just fine. I happen to agree with the principle of the law.

And her baby was not viable.

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This was not immediately ascertained.

The family said in the AC interview that they find peace knowing that their daughter was there in Heaven to greet her baby girl when she finally arrived home.

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I'm glad they have that peace. I'm not sure that I'd be so certain of that if that I was just debating on whether to kill said baby.

And the mother of this poor woman said that while tending her in hospital as she was kept alive by machines, that she could smell the death on her. Because she was deteriorating before their eyes being that she had been dead since November.

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Hospitals always smell like death. This is not an individual experience.

The baby was therefore housed inside a corpse. Deformed due to lack of oxygen because her mother was oxygen deprived for who knows how long prior to being found.

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But the baby was alive. Does that mean anything at all?

The best thing that happened to these two precious lives is that they were let go because they were no longer living.

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I don't recall doctors saying the baby was dead. I recall them saying it was not viable. The baby would've lived if carried to term, but it would've been malformed and may not have survived long. In a normal pregnancy where the mother is alive, there's no reason to not continue that pregnancy. In a situation like this, where the mother is indeed dead, then it becomes murky.

Opinions don't really matter now. They're gone. Now what is about to be realized is who we all are when we argue what should be done with other peoples suffering just to make us happy.

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You need to get off this kick that you somehow believe we do this because we just want to be happy. Have a rational discussion without insulting those you're discussing it with.

revanneosl said:

I find the whole thing to be absolutely bone-chilling. Probably because I read the Dune books when I was little, and there was this whole planet of men who kept the women brain-dead and alive only to serve as incubators.

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Yeah, that's where Texas is going with this, I'm sure...

PreachersWife2004 said:

I think it's more than that. I believe that when there's an unborn child involved Texas law can still override that.

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Do you also believe the state should be able to harvest the organs from the recently deceased even if it's against their or their family's' wishes?

The mother was brain dead. Her body would not have been able to survive. Not only that but the baby would be gravely harmed

PreachersWife2004 said:

I'm not sure who you're addressing the whole "grow up" thing to, but I do not find it surprising that Anderson Cooper sideswipes the whole "she was pregnant" thing.

This woman was braindead. I get that. I fully support the family in their wishes to disconnect her from life support.

EXCEPT...she was pregnant. Then it's no longer just about her. No one can really know what she would've wanted in that situation because the only thing she ever talked about (and didn't write down) was that she didn't want to be kept on life support. So the wife didn't really have a voice and nor did the unborn child.

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If she has died, then the decision on what to do falls to her next of kin... The husband.

It doesn't matter if she was pregnant or not, if the wish is to disconnect life support, that's what the hospital should do.

PreachersWife2004 said:

I don't recall doctors saying the baby was dead. I recall them saying it was not viable. The baby would've lived if carried to term, but it would've been malformed and may not have survived long. In a normal pregnancy where the mother is alive, there's no reason to not continue that pregnancy. In a situation like this, where the mother is indeed dead, then it becomes murky.

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No reason not to continue the pregnancy?

First off, a severely deformed fetus like that would probably get naturally aborted (miscarriage). But even if it didn't, what's the point of carrying a severely deformed fetus around for 9 months just to have it die two hours after birth? That helps nobody.

Dave Ellis said:

No reason not to continue the pregnancy?

First off, a severely deformed fetus like that would probably get naturally aborted (miscarriage). But even if it didn't, what's the point of carrying a severely deformed fetus around for 9 months just to have it die two hours after birth? That helps nobody.

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Would your thoughts have been different if the fetus were perfectly formed and about 20 weeks along?

Sayre said:

Would your thoughts have been different if the fetus were perfectly formed and about 20 weeks along?

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Yes, it's ultimately up to the family if they continue life support or not.

Using a dead body as an incubator is just flat out disgusting.