"Adaptations" and other "givens"

ArmyMatt

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How do we know that Genesis isn't referring only to spiritual death?

because humans, to include Adam and Eve, physically die. God said that when they disobeyed they would die. what happened? the breath left the flesh and Adam and Eve were buried. if it was only spiritual death, there would be no need for a physical resurrection.
 
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ArmyMatt

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What did humans and animals eat if plants couldn't die?

humans ate plants and seeds as it says in Genesis. but since humans and plants were glorified, neither died. there was no digestive breaking down.
 
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truthseeker32

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because humans, to include Adam and Eve, physically die. God said that when they disobeyed they would die. what happened? the breath left the flesh and Adam and Eve were buried. if it was only spiritual death, there would be no need for a physical resurrection.
That sort of goes around my question though. Why couldn't it be the case that things prior to the fall broke down physically and it was only spiritual death that entered the picture with the fall?
 
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jckstraw72

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Truth, the Fathers consistently teach otherwise. for instance:

St. Gregory Palamas, To the Most Revered Nun Xenia 10:

The death, however, that befell the soul because of the transgression not only crippled the soul and made man accursed; it also rendered the body itself subject to fatigue, suffering, and corruptibility, and finally handed it over to death.
 
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jckstraw72

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St. Augustine, City of God, Book 13.13

When, therefore, it is asked what death it was with which God threatened our first parents if they should transgress the commandment they had received from Him, and should fail to preserve their obedience,—whether it was the death of soul, or of body, or of the whole man, or that which is called second death,—we must answer, it is all. For the first consists of two; the second is the complete death, which consists of all. For, as the whole earth consists of many lands, and the Church universal of many churches, so death universal consists of all deaths.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That sort of goes around my question though. Why couldn't it be the case that things prior to the fall broke down physically and it was only spiritual death that entered the picture with the fall?

because for a human, there is no separation of physical and spiritual death. death for a human is the soul leaving the body. having a living soul floating around without a body is Platonism.

now, if you say humans lived and everything else broke down, then that brings me to what I asked earlier. creation reflects the glory of the Creator, so why would the God who is Life, create Man to be an immortal king over a dying kingdom.

and, Wisdom of Solomon, NO DEATH was created by God. it does not say that physical death is and spiritual was not. it says none.
 
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jckstraw72

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regarding the eating of plants, as Matt said - the paradisiacal world was simply another mode of existence that is unlike our fallen world. we cannot assume that our fallen world tell us about the pre-fallen world. Speaking of trees in the pre-fallen world, St. Gregory of Sinai writes:

it is always rich in fruits, ripe and unripe, and continually full of flowers. When trees and ripe fruit rot and fall to the ground they turn into sweet-scented soil, free from the smell of decay exuded by the vegetable-matter of this world. That is because of the great richness and holiness of the grace ever abounding there. -- On Commandments and Doctrines 82

St. Symeon the New Theologian states:

Notice that it is nowhere written, “God created paradise,” or that he said “let it be and it was,” but instead that He “planted” it, and “made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food” [Gen. 2:8-9], bearing every kind and variety of fruit, fruit which is never spoiled or lacking but always fresh and ripe, full of sweetness, and providing our ancestors with indescribable pleasure and enjoyment. For their immortal bodies had to be supplied with incorruptible food. -- Ethical Discourses 1.1

how did this work? I don't know, but it's sufficient evidence for us to say that uniformitarianism is incorrect and we cannot apply observations of our fallen world to the paradisiacal world.
 
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rusmeister

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How do we know that Genesis isn't referring only to spiritual death?

How do we know that Christ is risen from the dead? Because the Church teaches it.

Everything that has been quoted, from Scripture and the rest of Holy Tradition, affirms that physical death IS a consequence of the Fall. The consensus of the Church is absolutely clear. Agreement over space and time is overwhelming. Jack has just given us tiny exampes of that consensus.

If we do not accept Church authority on this clear dogmatic teaching, then we know nothing at all and our faith is vain.
 
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rusmeister

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Yes, thank you for this, and I can see that you have quite a knack for being able to recall such passages in the writings of saints which are so essential to the topic at hand.

I'll agree that we broaden nature to include man's mode of existence -- condition of life -- that we could say that he is naturally immortal if a continual vessel of grace. That being said, however, one can clearly see, even by careful examination of the Genesis narrative itself, that the height of Adam and Eve's communion with, and knowledge of God has often been greatly exaggerated in traditional Christian thought. I can explain how this occurred too, from the viewpoint of Christian mystical spirituality.

I'll mention here just in passing, not as evidence but only as food for thought, that Judaism has never taught the notion of a "fall" as is found within Christianity. The fall itself is never mentioned in the Bible. The Pentateuch is Jewish Scripture and it was they who determined its canonical authority.

From here on out, I suspect we'll experience greatly increased difficulty in communicating, because our underlying assumptions about the nature of religious (spiritual) knowledge in relation to other kinds of knowledge, which are arrived at in different ways, must now come to the forefront.

Danger number one in speaking of Judaism in history - what was commonly accepted two thousand years ago and what is accepted today are different kettles of fish. Don't forget the motivation and dating of the Masoretic texts! Forgetting that leads to giving modern Judaism unwarranted (and false) authority in determining our doctrine, the teachings of the Church which was fully plugged in to ancient Judaism.

We seem to agree up to the point of your words that I "bolded". Those words seem irrelevant to the teaching of the Church, and I see nothing behind them. And I don't mean "I don't see anything" but "I see Nothing" behind them. There is a ton of traditional heterodox Christian thought that is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, which we maintain DOESN'T exaggerate Adam and Eve's relation to God. And while you can certainly find individual errors in individual people, you DON'T find them in the consensus of the Church, what has been affirmed by (nearly) all in all ages.
 
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truthseeker32

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So if I understand correctly, the primary reason given here for rejecting physical death before the fall is that the consensus of Church Fathers support this view. Does this mean that if in 1000 years there is an even split or even reversal in the consensus of Church Fathers it will then be okay to accept biological evolution?
 
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No I don't, brother. I was being silly. I have read plenty of Orthodox pieces that treat St. Augustine with much love, affection, and admiration. I know full well that he isn't despised. Father Seraphim Rose thought very highly of him, and I have read the link already. I was just being a goof ball regarding the stereotypes that many Westerners have regarding we Orthodox. They perceive us as hating Augustine with a passion. Hard to "read" my sarcasm through the internet! ^_^

Gurney, Gurney, Gurney ... I think you have some more reading to do!

The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church
 
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jckstraw72

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So if I understand correctly, the primary reason given here for rejecting physical death before the fall is that the consensus of Church Fathers support this view. Does this mean that if in 1000 years there is an even split or even reversal in the consensus of Church Fathers it will then be okay to accept biological evolution?

it's really not possible to answer this question, because such a reversal will absolutely never happen. that God created no death is a central element of the Orthodox faith, and if "Fathers" begin to teach otherwise then we know they are wolves in sheep's clothing. the idea that there can even be a reversal of consensus on a theological issue is not Orthodox - it denies that the current consensus is from God. It implicitly denies that the Fathers were theologians in the true sense of the word - it reduces them to philosophers and mere academics who can be overturned when better thinkers come along. If evolution is true then not only were the Fathers wrong on a great many teachings, but they didn't even know what theology is! If evolution is true they continually confused science with theology. we really can't question this stuff without questioning the spiritual state of the Fathers and what it means for the Spirit to guide the Church.

although it is entirely impossible to ever prove evolution, if somehow, hypothetically, evolution were to be proven true, I would walk away from the Orthodox faith.
 
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rusmeister

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So if I understand correctly, the primary reason given here for rejecting physical death before the fall is that the consensus of Church Fathers support this view. Does this mean that if in 1000 years there is an even split or even reversal in the consensus of Church Fathers it will then be okay to accept biological evolution?

it's really not possible to answer this question, because such a reversal will absolutely never happen. that God created no death is a central element of the Orthodox faith, and if "Fathers" begin to teach otherwise then we know they are wolves in sheep's clothing. the idea that there can even be a reversal of consensus on a theological issue is not Orthodox - it denies that the current consensus is from God. It implicitly denies that the Fathers were theologians in the true sense of the word - it reduces them to philosophers and mere academics who can be overturned when better thinkers come along. If evolution is true then not only were the Fathers wrong on a great many teachings, but they didn't even know what theology is! If evolution is true they continually confused science with theology. we really can't question this stuff without questioning the spiritual state of the Fathers and what it means for the Spirit to guide the Church.

although it is entirely impossible to ever prove evolution, if somehow, hypothetically, evolution were to be proven true, I would walk away from the Orthodox faith.
What he said.
It means precisely what many modern denominations have come to already, denying that consensus from teachings on sodomy to the Virgin Birth to the Resurrection itself.
I am NOT "anti-science" or "anti-intellectual". But I say that modern science is very modern, in the sense of "temporary", "passing", its doctrines overturned from century to century, and we should not elevate it to the status of Holy Tradition. It is conducted by very fallible men not guided by the Holy Spirit and they are not robots, but living souls, subject to error.
 
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So if I understand correctly, the primary reason given here for rejecting physical death before the fall is that the consensus of Church Fathers support this view. Does this mean that if in 1000 years there is an even split or even reversal in the consensus of Church Fathers it will then be okay to accept biological evolution?

It's already okay to accept biological evolution. It's also perfectly acceptable for Orthodox Christians, laity and clergy alike, to regard the creation and fall narratives, as well as many other Biblical stories to be strictly religious writings produced as myth. We do not need to accept the historical or scientific validity of these stories. The parish priest at the Orthodox Church I grew up clearly did not ascribe to a literal interpretation, nor did many of my instructors at seminary. At the same time, however, it is perfectly okay to reject this notion of Scripture as myth, and biological evolution, if one desires. We tend to argue in favor of our own points of view because we wish to feel that our own rigidly defined belief system is the right one. But it doesn't really matter so much whether we have the true belief system or not, For "where there is knowledge, it will pass away" but "Love never fails" (I Corinthians 13:8). We're not saved by the right beliefs, but by the right worship of God (i.e. "I was hungry, you gave me food... but Lord, when did I ever?... = destruction of ones egocentricity through the practice of strict self-denial and humble service to others) -- Matthew 25:35.
 
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If mankind has evolved and will continue to evolve, how are we related to Christ? How is He fully God and fully Man if we are evolving away from the life form that He took on? And how is Adam representative of man if we are evolving away from Adam? If we are just another animal, which evolution and Darwin basically claim, then what is so sublime or special or unique about man that God wishes to save us over a baboon or a hamster? We are theoretically just a sophisticated animal on an evolutionary journey toward God-knows-what, so why is man unique or special at all?

The Fall is just a murky mythological tale when combined with evolution because it seems to get demoded into a cheesy folk tale that seeks to explain something that only our modern scientists have uncovered. It's almost as if now we know the "truth" about evolution, we have no need of these quaint creationist stories in anymore. oh sure, you can believe them if you want, but they're pure allegory and a bit silly, out of the groove of hard science. That is the vibe I get from evolutionary thinking.

Has the Darwinian legacy made us BETTER humans? Think about it, has it? How has evolution informed our theology and morality as human beings? I don't think we've covered these ramifications in this discussion very much. I tried to bring this up earlier. Frankly, I think most people these days see humanity as a bunch of glorified animals with manners and more ability and talent! We are essentially just apes with skills! We have given in more to perceived "animal instincts" in modernity. Humans shack up, have dropped away from these 'quaint' rituals of marriage, 'swinging' is common now in 'open marriages,' abortion is rampant, homosexuality, all sorts of animalistic things. In fact, has anyone noticed how the argument 'there are animals in nature that are homosexual!' is often invoked in the homosexuality debate? In other words, 'the animals have gay sex, and since we're just more sophisticated animals ahead of them on an evolutionary continuum, yet still related and animals ourselves essentially, why is gay sex wrong?'

Social Darwinism, eugenics, contraception, abortion, and all sorts of other Frankensteinian social tinkering ideas flowed out of the post-Darwin world.

As jckstraw has pointed out in multiple posts, ArmyMatt and Rus as well, Orthodoxy DOES indeed teach that man was created for eternity with God. Man was vibrant with life coursing through his veins and soul, and nature was in harmony with God. The Uncreated Light was with Adam and Eve, and the destiny God laid out was an eternal one with theosis and perfection as the endgame. Life was abundant. "And it was good" is the constant reminder in Genesis after each creation. Man was not meant to die. Death was a concession after the eating of the forbidden fruit. For if death weren't allowed, the second tree would've been consumed and the sinfulness and imperfection and flawed matrix created by the sin of Adam would've been perpetuated eternally. Death was a concession.

The Fathers are clear that eternity and life were the goal, and that death was not a factor in mankind until the Fall.

Through an evolutionist-Christian imagery, should we change the Holy Icon of the Resurrection in which Christ is pulling Adam and Eve out of the bowels of death? Would we change the icon to a more hip and modern look and have Christ pulling out a bunch of evolving beings? In an evolutionary vision, it is hard to believe there was just ONE set of first parents, right? If there were homo erectus, homo habilis, australopithecines and Neanderthals running about, and all were on a human journey toward evolution, it would be pretty silly to surmise that they all died off except for one first couple that was the Adam and Eve final product of the Darwin factor? In fact, in the evolutionist vision wouldn't there have to be hundreds, thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of these monkey-like hominids roaming around the world, mostly in and around Africa, steadily turning more human-like, only to be killed off somehow with only one human male and female left alive? Would God allow all this creation to evolve all over the place only to kill it all off except for one set to use as Adam and Eve? Because if not, then God made MANY first parents and Adam and Eve are super-allegory! And that is extremely at odds with the Fathers! There were not multiple first parents.

So I maintain that evolution not only creates bizarre, sketchy, questionable theories about the First Parents, it creates a first man and a savior with whom none of us can truly identify (this point was made eloquently by Rus), it creates a new theology about man that really demodes him to a glorified animal rather than an exalted being in God's image, it opens the door to philosophies that are Hitleresque at worst and Kahn Star Trek style eugenics at best, and it creates a vision of a humanity that retains animal instincts and needs rather than self-control and human betterment? There is just a huge can of worms that evolution opens up that really causes major tension and conflict with traditional Orthodoxy theological and moral teachings imho. And I see in this thread how much it causes doubts in some as to the truths and illumined thinking of the Ancient Fathers. It causes one to second guess the venerable, holy, awesome Fathers in whom we trust so much, venerate, and adore, and puts more faith and direction toward the evolutionary theorists of modernity from which there are constant changes and adjustments in their theories that can change with the tide.
 
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jckstraw72

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Gurney, that post rocks my socks!

you are right about Adam and Eve -- evolution happens in populations, not individuals. so the idea of just two first humans becomes absurd. so the Church venerating them as Saints becomes absurd ...
 
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Thanks, brother. Coming from you, a graduate of seminary and an exceptionally bright human being with a lot of fire for God, that means A LOT. Now give some reps! ^_^:p^_^:p:D

Gurney, that post rocks my socks!

you are right about Adam and Eve -- evolution happens in populations, not individuals. so the idea of just two first humans becomes absurd. so the Church venerating them as Saints becomes absurd ...
 
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