A simple Question

ViaCrucis

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To all followers of the OT and NT :

from your Holy Book, please tell us what is the name of your religion and the text which says that.

thanks

Jews don't have an Old Testament, they have the Tanakh. So I assume then that your question is directed rather specifically to Christians.

In the Acts of the Apostles it says that we were first called "Christians" in Antioch. The name has stuck.

Christianity is an English word that more-or-less means "way of being Christian".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jews don't have an Old Testament, they have the Tanakh. So I assume then that your question is directed rather specifically to Christians.

I also directed the question to the Jews, isn't the Torah part of the OT?
if it isn't , I hope they answer from whatever book they follow

In the Acts of the Apostles it says that we were first called "Christians" in Antioch. The name has stuck.
I know this. it happened centuries after Jesus. what was the name at his time until the Antioch gathering?

Christianity is an English word that more-or-less means "way of being Christian".
and the word Christian refers to Christ.
 
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seashale76

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I know this. it happened centuries after Jesus. what was the name at his time until the Antioch gathering?

St. Paul wrote the Acts of the Apostles around 62 A.D. The events it details likely occurred between 29 AD. and 59 AD (as it was written when St. Paul was imprisoned). I've read the event in question was around 30 AD. So, Christians being referred to as such didn't just suddenly happen centuries (plural) after the death of Christ. This took place in the first century. Before that time Christians were referred to as disciples of Christ.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I also directed the question to the Jews, isn't the Torah part of the OT?
if it isn't , I hope they answer from whatever book they follow

The term "Old Testament" infers that there is a "New Testament". The New Testament is a distinctly Christian collection of Scripture, and that is why we refer to what came before--the Law and the Prophets--as the "Old Testament".

Judaism has the Tanakh. Which corresponds pretty much completely with the Christian Old Testament, but it's not perfect.

For one, Christians have historically embraced more books than Judaism has--Tobit, Sirach, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, etc. And while Protestants have mostly removed these from our Canon (either formally or informally) they still play an important role in the history and developement of the Christian Old Testament Canon. What books Christians came and embraced as "the Old Testament" was a different historical process than the Jewish process of accepting and embracing the Tanakh, the two processes mostly happened side-by-side historically, but the two were still different because Christianity and Judaism had become distinct and separate religions by the time Christians were working on our Canon and the Jews working on theirs.

While Christians embraced en masse the Law and Prophets, just as Judaism had before, the fiddling around with a third category of texts--the Writings--remained more fluid. Which is why sometimes Christians accepted Esther as Scripture, and sometimes they didn't. Sometimes Christains accepted Sirach, sometimes they didn't. Though Judaism embraces Esther and rejects Sirach.

It is thus rather and technically incorrect to say the Jews have the Old Testament, even though all the books the Jews have in the Tanakh are in the Christian Old Testament and thus the two look just about the same. In particular the Protestant Old Testament is just about identical with the Jewish Tanakh, though Protestants have historically used more sources than the Masoretic Hebrew, we've historically continued to use the Septuagint; which is one fundamental reason why Christian translations and Jewish translations can often differ dramatically at certain points.

I know this. it happened centuries after Jesus. what was the name at his time until the Antioch gathering?

Centuries? Try no more than a decade after Jesus. Christians didn't call themselves anything different while they were a group of men and women following their Rabbi, they called themselves "Jews".

Other names they gave themselves, after the resurrection, was "The Way", and they also called themselves "Disciples" and "Brothers". But the name that really stuck was "Christian", and it's the name we keep encountering following this.

and the word Christian refers to Christ.

The Greek word is "christianos" (singular)/"christianoi" (plural) and just about literally means "Christ person"/"Christ people". It may have originally been a nasty epithet, mocking these weird people speaking of "the oily one" (christos). Whatever the case may be, it's the name that stuck. We are followers of the Christ, and thus Christians. We're Jesus People.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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seashale76

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*cough*St. Luke*cough* :p

-CryptoLutheran

Lol- I have literally been studying for a test in pathophysiology for what seems like non-stop for four days- with pharmacology thrown in for good measure- and I've been up since six a.m. It's a wonder I got that even half right at this point. My brain is fried. This is why I'm definitely not a theologian- or whatever.

ETA: This is also perfect example of why people should do their own research instead of asking random people like me for answers on the internet.
 
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smaneck

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To all followers of the OT and NT :

from your Holy Book, please tell us what is the name of your religion and the text which says that.

thanks

No Jew has answered this question as yet, so let me address it. The religion of the Tanakh did not have a name. People didn't think in terms of religion being separate from life. The Hebrew people believe they were called to worship Yahweh and only Yahweh by virtue of His having led them out of slavery. Later, the 12 Hebrew tribes came to form a kingdom which later split into two kingdoms, the kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. The Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians and the elites carried off into captivity never to return. The common people were left behind to become Samaritans, later Christians and Muslims. I would not be surprised if some of their blood flowed through your own veins. The Kingdom of Judah survived a bit longer until they too were carried off into captivity. However, unlike the Kingdom of Israel they were able to retain their identity and it is from them that we get the term Jew and Judaism. In short we are talking more of a people who have a certain covenant with God, not a religion as we commonly think of it.
 
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LoAmmi

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I think I see where this is going, but I'll answer anyway expecting you to then somehow try to say that it is either Islam, which is just playing word games, OR that you know it's false because it lacks a name in the text... as if that somehow matters.

There is no distinct name given to us in the Torah or Tanakh. There is no importance to our faith having a name, especially at that point. The point was to follow the Torah and worship HaShem and HaShem alone.
 
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Catholicism is Christianity at its core, "...I believe in the Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic..." Though this phrase entered int he Creed of Nicea Constantinople around year 300, The term Catholic was established by Saint Ignatius of Antioch The second sucesor of Pete in Antioch in the year 110 AD, and Saint Ignatius of Antioch met in person both Saint Peter and Saint Paul.

The term catholic was used to differenciate Apostolic Christians from heretics who were also using the tittle "christians".

After having answered your question, I would like you to answer mine, ¿Where in the Prophets and in the Gospel Can we read about the coming of Mohamed?

The Prophets anounced the coming of the New Covenant. they even anounced that Jews were going to reject Jesús as Mesiah, and they anounced that The Mesiah would have to suffer and die, and anounced his resurrection. You just need to read Isaiah 53. But we can't read the comming of any othe prophet after Jesús, nor can we read about a Third Covenant. We can read of the new Covenant in Jeremiah 31, 31 - 35.

How can Islam historicaly and prophticaly justify itself in the prophetic revelation?
 
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LoAmmi

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After having Answer you, I would like you to answer me, ¿Where in the Prophets and in the Gospel Can we read about the coming of Mohamed? The Prophets anounced the coming of the New Covenant. they even anounced that Jews were going to reject Jesús as Mesiah, and they anounced that The Mesiah owuld have to suffer and die, and anounced his resurrection. You just need to read Isaiah 53. But we can't read the comming of any othe prophet after Jesús, nor can we read about a Third Covenant. We can read of the new Covenant in Jeremy 31, 31 - 35

All of this is Christianity's assertion, it isn't objective fact. I would disagree entirely with both Christianity's conclusions on Isaiah 53 and Jeremiah. Be careful about that. Muslims will point to places in the New Testament they say predict Muhammad, although you would disagree. You'd have really no legs to stand on based upon the fact that you probably think I have no legs to stand on. It's all complicated when it comes to interpretations.
 
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All of this is Christianity's assertion,

Right the prophets also anounced that many jew will not believe:

Isaiah 53, 1

{53:1} Who has believed our report? And to

whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?


The very prophet anounces the difficulty of jews to believe the revelation of God regarding his Son.

it isn't objective fact.

No, in fact the rejection of jews is the convalidation of the fulfilment of the prophesy.

I would disagree entirely with both Christianity's conclusions on Isaiah 53 and Jeremiah.

I am not worried of your disagreement, I give it by discount.

Be careful about that. Muslims will point to places in the New Testament they say predict Muhammad,

Yes They point towards the Holy Spirit coming quotes. But The Coming of the Holy Spirit is in the Old testament and in the new testament If muslims dare to say that the quotes of the Gospels refer to Mohamed then they will have to show that in the Pophets the quotes of the Holy Spirit also refer to Mohamed to convalidate that Mohamed is a prophet, but and he is not.

although you would disagree. You'd have really no legs to stand on based upon the fact that you probably think I have no legs to stand on.

I think that you are part of the non believers which Isaiah and Daniel spoke of about the will of God.

It's all complicated when it comes to interpretations.

That is part of the Apologetic discusión.
 
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LoAmmi

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Right the prophets also anounced that many jew will not believe:

Isaiah 53, 1

{53:1} Who has believed our report? And to
whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?


The very prophet anounces the difficulty of jews to believe the revelation of God regarding his Son.
Or that's the kings of the world being shocked that Israel was right following from Isaiah 52. Since there were no chapters or verses in the original text, starting at 53:1 is disingenuous to start there because it's starting at an arbitrary point someone in the Middle Ages decided was a good place to put a chapter break.

But you're missing my point.

No, in fact the rejection of jews is the convalidation of the fulfilment of the prophesy.
Or not, if YOU and I don't interpret it the same way. That's the point.

Yes They point towards the Holy Spirit coming quotes. But The Coming of the Holy Spirit is in the Old testament and in the new testament If uslims would say that the quotes of the Gospels refer to Mohamed then they will have to show that in the Pophets the quotes of the Holy Spirit also refer to Mohamed. To convalidate that Mohamed is a prophet and he is not.
I didn't say I agreed with them. Just that it's impossible to say your interpretation has to be right of my scriptures but then just cast aside their interpretation of yours because, well gee, you MUST be right. It's not proof, it's just a male part measuring contest.


I think that you are part of the non believers which Isaiah and Daniel spoke of about the will of God.
"I know you are but what am I"
 
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Christians started to be called Christians VERY early on. In fact, we first see Christians being given that name in the Book of Acts, the events of which happened very shortly after the Ascension of Jesus. Before that, I'd imagine Christians were called 'disciples' of Jesus, but Christianity was growing so fast across the Roman Empire that a new term had to be used to describe Christ's followers.
 
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Or that's the kings of the world being shocked that Israel was right following from Isaiah 52. Since there were no chapters or verses in the original text, starting at 53:1 is disingenuous to start there because it's starting at an arbitrary point someone in the Middle Ages decided was a good place to put a chapter break.

In fact the chapter 52 speaks of that advent of the Mesiah, who is Lord, and who will make the whole world to know about God, the ture God. The God Of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Juda, David. But that Mesiah will also suffer, there is not break between 52 and 53, the mesiah who will restitute the Glory of the Temple of God, will also Suffer, Will be rejected by its people, he will Die but he will see abundant descenants.

In chapter Isaiah 52 says:

Isaiah 52,

{52:13} Behold, my servant will understand; he will be

exalted and lifted up, and he will be very sublime.

Matthew 21, 6 - 11

{21:6} Then the disciples,
going out, did just as Jesus instructed them. {21:7} And they
brought the donkey and the colt, and they laid their garments
on them, and they helped him sit upon them. {21:8} Then a
very numerous crowd spread their garments on the way. But
others cut branches from the trees and scattered them on the
way. {21:9} And the crowds that preceded him, and those
that followed, cried out, saying: “Hosanna to the Son of
David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest!” {21:10} And when he had entered
into Jerusalem, the entire city was stirred up, saying, “Who is
this?” {21:11} But the people were saying, “This is Jesus, the

Prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.”




Isaiah 53, 8 - 10

{53:8} He was lifted up from anguish and
judgment. Who will describe his life? For he has been cut off
from the land of the living. Because of the wickedness of my
people, I have struck him down. {53:9} And he will be given
a place with the impious for his burial, and with the rich for
his death, though he has done no iniquity, nor was deceit in
his mouth. {53:10} But it was the will of the Lord to crush
him with infirmity. If he lays down his life because of sin, he
will see offspring with long lives, and the will of the Lord will

be directed by his hand.

John 3, 16

{3:14} And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert,
so also must the Son of man be lifted up,


Matthew 26, 2

{26:2} “You know that after two days the Passover will begin,

and the Son of man will be handed over to be crucified



But you're missing my point.


Or not, if YOU and I don't interpret it the same way. That's the point.

Yes, You would not reject Jesús without confusión.

I didn't say I agreed with them. Just that it's impossible to say your interpretation has to be right of my scriptures but then just cast aside their interpretation of yours because, well gee, you MUST be right. It's not proof, it's just a male part measuring contest.

No, The interpretation of the gospel and its concordance with the Prophets is beyond any doubt, As I told you before, the very destruction of the second temple after the rejection of the Mesiah is one of the must clear evidences that there is no mesiah to como in our days since there is no any longer the second temple.

"I know you are but what am I"

I am a believer, of God ad of his Prophets, and thorugh his prophest of the truth of The Gospels and of the truth of the revelation of the Son of God and of the Holy Spirit of God.
 
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LoAmmi

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In fact the chapter 52 speaks of that advent of the Mesiah, who is Lord, and who will make the whole world to know about God, the ture God. The God Of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Juda, David. But that Mesiah will also suffer, there is not break between 52 and 53, the mesiah who will restitute the Glory of the Temple of God, will also Suffer, Will be rejected by its people, he will Die but he will see abundant descenants.
At no time leading up to Isaiah 53 does Isaiah identify the servant of HaShem as anything but Israel. No less than four times this happens. Isaiah never, not once, states that the servant is the coming king of Israel who will rule in the messianic age and certainly never uses the word "messiah".
No, The interpretation of the gospel and its concordance with the Prophets is beyond any doubt, As I told you before, the very destruction of the second temple after the rejection of the Mesiah is one of the must clear evidences that there is no mesiah to como in our days since there is no any longer the second temple.
Of course it isn't. We knew the Second Temple wouldn't stand forever. Daniel tells us that. We also know that when the Messiah comes, according to Ezekiel, sacrifices will resume in the Temple. How can the Messiah come when the Temple still had sacrifices? That would be denying Ezekiel.

One would have to be quite ignorant to think that Jews haven't studied enough of our scriptures to stand firm in what we believe based upon them.
 
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gord44

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In fact the chapter 52 speaks of that advent of the Mesiah, who is Lord, and who will make the whole world to know about God, the ture God. The God Of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Juda, David. But that Mesiah will also suffer, there is not break between 52 and 53, the mesiah who will restitute the Glory of the Temple of God, will also Suffer, Will be rejected by its people, he will Die but he will see abundant descenants.

In chapter Isaiah 52 says:

Isaiah 52,

{52:13} Behold, my servant will understand; he will be
exalted and lifted up, and he will be very sublime.

John 3, 16

{3:14} And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert,
so also must the Son of man be lifted up,




Isaiah 53, 8 - 10
{53:8} He was lifted up from anguish and
judgment. Who will describe his life? For he has been cut off
from the land of the living. Because of the wickedness of my
people, I have struck him down. {53:9} And he will be given
a place with the impious for his burial, and with the rich for
his death, though he has done no iniquity, nor was deceit in
his mouth. {53:10} But it was the will of the Lord to crush
him with infirmity. If he lays down his life because of sin, he
will see offspring with long lives, and the will of the Lord will
be directed by his hand.

Matthew 26, 2

{26:2} “You know that after two days the Passover will begin,
and the Son of man will be handed over to be crucified.”


Pretty sure Isaiah 53 is about Israel as the suffering servant.
 
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