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The question becomes whether or not this is a purely allegorical statement or something literal? There is also the question as to whether it could be both. Here are a few places where we see this type of phrase used essentially to herald the dawn of the Day of The Lord.

" The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:" (Joel 2:10)

" The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:31-32) (The remnant of Zion's seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the church: see Revelation 12:17. Joel prophesied it before the church age; Revelation identifies it as the church (saints) after the dawn of the church age.)

" The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining." (Joel 3:15)

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel...The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:16 & 20-21) (Peter's restatement of Joel's prophecy)

" Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." (Is 13:6 & 10)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" (Mat 24:29)

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." (Rev 6:12-13)

While it is entirely possible that there will be physical signs in the sun, moon, and stars when His return is imminent, there may also be an allegorical meaning. For example, Jesus says in Matthew that the "stars" will fall from heaven. A literal star would disrupt the entire solar system and perturb the planetary orbits with its gravitation pull. If a literal star collided with the earth, that would be the end of the earth, and that's just one star, not stars plural. It is highly unlikely that a literal star will fall to the earth precisely because we know that God will set up His kingdom upon the earth. Therefore, the earth itself has to survive whatever cataclysmic events take place at the time of the end. Of course, some may argue that this might refer to comets, asteroids, and other stellar phenomena falling to the earth. Again, these types of things aren't necessarily ruled out.

What of the allegorical? Well, we know that stars can refer to angels. Revelation 12 talks of the dragon (Satan) drawing a third part of the stars of heaven and casting them to the earth ("stars shall fall from heaven"). Also, Revelation 9 talks of a star falling and says that unto "him was given the key of the bottomless pit" (Rev 9:1). This star releases Abaddon, the king of the pit whose name essentially means destroying angel. Now Revelation 12 speaks of a war in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels. Satan and his angels lose this battle and are cast out of heaven and into the earth. After this we read about the persecution of the woman (Israel) and the remnant of her seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ (the church or saints). Thus this war in heaven appears to be the catalyst for the dawn of what most people refer to as the end times. Now some will say that this war spoken of in Revelation 12 is about some ancient rebellion led by Satan and referred to in Isaiah 14. However, the term Lucifer used in Isaiah 14 is not a proper name. It is from Latin, and one should study up a bit on its use within the Latin Vulgate to better understand its meaning and usage. In other words, Lucifer is not Satan's angelic name. This is a metaphor describing and being applied to the king of Babylon. This is shown in verse 4 and throughout, such as when we read later about this Lucifer dying and descending into hell. His body will not lie in state like the honored kings before him. Does that sound like it's describing an angel? Now, there may be a bit more to this passage and why this particular metaphor was used by Isaiah, but I don't want to go off topic.

Furthermore, Satan, in Revelation 12, is cast out of heaven after he has spent some time accusing the brethren before the thrown of God. In like manner as we read in Job, Satan stands as the accuser of mankind. In particular here, he is accusing the brethren of the church. We know this because it says that "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" (Rev 12:11). These are they who are later in this same chapter identified as the remnant of the woman's seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ: the church. The woman represents Israel. Remember that the church is the branch that has been grafted into the tree. Therefore, this war cannot have happened sometime back in antiquity before the church age had even begun because we are told that it takes place after he has been accusing the brethren before The Lord day and night. After he is cast out, he tries to persecute the woman (Israel). However, she is provided two wings of a great eagle for protection for time, times, and half a time (a clear reference to the last 42 months: see Daniel 7 and 12 as well as Revelation 11 and the prophecy of the temple of God).

If we see the stars as angels, and we recognize the war in heaven described in Revelation 12, then Jesus' statement in Matthew 24 about the stars falling and the powers (or authorities or principalities) of the heavens being shaken from their place (positions of power and authority over this world as Satan is referred to as the god of this world: 2 Cor 4:4) starts to look like an allegorical reference to this war between the righteous angels and the wicked ones. What about the sun and the moon? Well what is the sun? It is a source of light, warmth, illumination, and life upon planet earth. The moon is a stellar body that helps with stabilizing the earth (tides and spin), and it reflects the light of the sun upon the earth in the darkness of night. Well who is the light of the world? Jesus Christ is The Light of the world. Therefore, He is like the sun: the source of light, warmth, illumination of truth, and life. What is the church? The church is supposed to reflect the light of The Son upon a sinful world just as the moon reflects the light of the sun at night. The church is supposed to be the salt of the earth. We are supposed to be a stabilizing influence on the world. Therefore, the moon turning into blood can be seen as a metaphor for the persecution of the church. We read about the persecution of the saints at the hands of the beast in both Daniel and Revelation. The sun does not give its light? As Jesus was dying on the cross, He uttered these words, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 27:46). It certainly seemed to Christ that He had been abandoned at this, the darkest hour, of his life. It has at times in the past and will no doubt in the future feel this way to the saints that are persecuted. It will feel as if the sun no longer gives its light. They may well wonder if God has forsaken Israel and His church. However, shortly after this time of great upheaval, persecution, and judgment, He will appear to destroy the enemies of God, rescue His people (Israel and His church), and establish His Kingdom. So while there may be some literal events that transpire among the stellar bodies of the heavens and affect our perspective of them upon the earth, there may also be more to these statements than merely whether or not a meteor falls to the earth.
 
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Dave Watchman

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You know I thought this was the place about end times stuff. Red moon is definitely end time stuff IMHO.

I think red moons definitely mean the end time stuff is about to begin. There is something to be found with these ones. I can't find anyone who has found it. I don't think it's that hard to find. I am not that smart. I must have had a Helper. I watched the Hagee video. The graphics at the beginning were cool. I wouldn't spend money on his book.
In the second hour of Hagee's video he quoted this from Joel 2:30:

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke."

He immediately concluded: "Now this describes a war on the ground". I think that Mr. Hagee has not yet seen God's wrath break out.

Two sets of solar/lunar eclipses are about to carve out a peculiar number of days that is too precise to be coincidental. I would be getting ready, just in case.

(50 posts before I can post a picture? It might as well be 1335)
 
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The connection is that the moons concern has almost nothing to do with what Israel's identity is about, as explained in the sermon. It was to birth Christ so that men could be justified from their sins. Moons, blue moons, irridescent ones, whatever, or not.
 
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Dave Watchman

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The feast day eclipses don't have anything to do with the doctrines of salvation in my opinion. On a Christian forum I assume everyone believes Jesus is the only begotten Son of The Living God. You'll still have salvation. It's more of a question if we'll be called least or greatest in The Kingdom of God.

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,
 
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You're right, they don't have anything to do with what saves us, and what I'm saying is that sort of plummets their value right off, for us as believers with a mission. Natrually, we are curious, but then, every solar eclipse is an astounding work of God, too (see the video THE PRIVILEGED PLANET).

We are not saved by exact knowledge about them, about prophecy, or any knowledge as such. What matters most is our mission for the Gospel, the thing that angels long to look upon (we never hear that about the moons!) (2 Pet 1).

As for the passages quoted, Mt24A has to do with the upheaval in 1st century Judea as you can see from the things mentioned local in time and place. This wave of destruction on the country was mentioned as early as Mt 21 in the parable of the vineyard. Some dramatic signs happened during it, and some of the things Jesus mentioned (about blood, smoke, signs) have a symbolic flavor.
 
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Dave Watchman

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As for the passages quoted, Mt24A has to do with the upheaval in 1st century Judea as you can see from the things mentioned local in time and place. This wave of destruction on the country was mentioned as early as Mt 21 in the parable of the vineyard. Some dramatic signs happened during it, and some of the things Jesus mentioned (about blood, smoke, signs) have a symbolic flavor.

Hi Interplanner

Are you saying this:

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

has already happened in 1st century Judea?
 
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The question becomes whether or not this is a purely allegorical statement or something literal? There is also the question as to whether it could be both. Here are a few places where we see this type of phrase used essentially to herald the dawn of the Day of The Lord.

" The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:" (Joel 2:10)

" The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:31-32) (The remnant of Zion's seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the church: see Revelation 12:17. Joel prophesied it before the church age; Revelation identifies it as the church (saints) after the dawn of the church age.)

" The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining." (Joel 3:15)

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel...The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:16 & 20-21) (Peter's restatement of Joel's prophecy)

" Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." (Is 13:6 & 10)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" (Mat 24:29)

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." (Rev 6:12-13)

While it is entirely possible that there will be physical signs in the sun, moon, and stars when His return is imminent, there may also be an allegorical meaning. For example, Jesus says in Matthew that the "stars" will fall from heaven. A literal star would disrupt the entire solar system and perturb the planetary orbits with its gravitation pull. If a literal star collided with the earth, that would be the end of the earth, and that's just one star, not stars plural. It is highly unlikely that a literal star will fall to the earth precisely because we know that God will set up His kingdom upon the earth. Therefore, the earth itself has to survive whatever cataclysmic events take place at the time of the end. Of course, some may argue that this might refer to comets, asteroids, and other stellar phenomena falling to the earth. Again, these types of things aren't necessarily ruled out.

What of the allegorical? Well, we know that stars can refer to angels. Revelation 12 talks of the dragon (Satan) drawing a third part of the stars of heaven and casting them to the earth ("stars shall fall from heaven"). Also, Revelation 9 talks of a star falling and says that unto "him was given the key of the bottomless pit" (Rev 9:1). This star releases Abaddon, the king of the pit whose name essentially means destroying angel. Now Revelation 12 speaks of a war in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels. Satan and his angels lose this battle and are cast out of heaven and into the earth. After this we read about the persecution of the woman (Israel) and the remnant of her seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ (the church or saints). Thus this war in heaven appears to be the catalyst for the dawn of what most people refer to as the end times. Now some will say that this war spoken of in Revelation 12 is about some ancient rebellion led by Satan and referred to in Isaiah 14. However, the term Lucifer used in Isaiah 14 is not a proper name. It is from Latin, and one should study up a bit on its use within the Latin Vulgate to better understand its meaning and usage. In other words, Lucifer is not Satan's angelic name. This is a metaphor describing and being applied to the king of Babylon. This is shown in verse 4 and throughout, such as when we read later about this Lucifer dying and descending into hell. His body will not lie in state like the honored kings before him. Does that sound like it's describing an angel? Now, there may be a bit more to this passage and why this particular metaphor was used by Isaiah, but I don't want to go off topic.

Furthermore, Satan, in Revelation 12, is cast out of heaven after he has spent some time accusing the brethren before the thrown of God. In like manner as we read in Job, Satan stands as the accuser of mankind. In particular here, he is accusing the brethren of the church. We know this because it says that "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" (Rev 12:11). These are they who are later in this same chapter identified as the remnant of the woman's seed that have the testimony of Jesus Christ: the church. The woman represents Israel. Remember that the church is the branch that has been grafted into the tree. Therefore, this war cannot have happened sometime back in antiquity before the church age had even begun because we are told that it takes place after he has been accusing the brethren before The Lord day and night. After he is cast out, he tries to persecute the woman (Israel). However, she is provided two wings of a great eagle for protection for time, times, and half a time (a clear reference to the last 42 months: see Daniel 7 and 12 as well as Revelation 11 and the prophecy of the temple of God).

If we see the stars as angels, and we recognize the war in heaven described in Revelation 12, then Jesus' statement in Matthew 24 about the stars falling and the powers (or authorities or principalities) of the heavens being shaken from their place (positions of power and authority over this world as Satan is referred to as the god of this world: 2 Cor 4:4) starts to look like an allegorical reference to this war between the righteous angels and the wicked ones. What about the sun and the moon? Well what is the sun? It is a source of light, warmth, illumination, and life upon planet earth. The moon is a stellar body that helps with stabilizing the earth (tides and spin), and it reflects the light of the sun upon the earth in the darkness of night. Well who is the light of the world? Jesus Christ is The Light of the world. Therefore, He is like the sun: the source of light, warmth, illumination of truth, and life. What is the church? The church is supposed to reflect the light of The Son upon a sinful world just as the moon reflects the light of the sun at night. The church is supposed to be the salt of the earth. We are supposed to be a stabilizing influence on the world. Therefore, the moon turning into blood can be seen as a metaphor for the persecution of the church. We read about the persecution of the saints at the hands of the beast in both Daniel and Revelation. The sun does not give its light? As Jesus was dying on the cross, He uttered these words, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 27:46). It certainly seemed to Christ that He had been abandoned at this, the darkest hour, of his life. It has at times in the past and will no doubt in the future feel this way to the saints that are persecuted. It will feel as if the sun no longer gives its light. They may well wonder if God has forsaken Israel and His church. However, shortly after this time of great upheaval, persecution, and judgment, He will appear to destroy the enemies of God, rescue His people (Israel and His church), and establish His Kingdom. So while there may be some literal events that transpire among the stellar bodies of the heavens and affect our perspective of them upon the earth, there may also be more to these statements than merely whether or not a meteor falls to the earth.
So is the sun turning to darkness more than an eclipse which would be for a short period of time? Are these 2 events (sun and red moon) to happen at the same time?
 
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Kingdom_Come

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So is the sun turning to darkness more than an eclipse which would be for a short period of time? Are these 2 events (sun and red moon) to happen at the same time?


Perhaps the question is whether or not anyone should be looking for an eclipse in the first place. Consider Zechariah 14:6-7, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.”

“On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.” (Zech 14:6-7 ESV)

Correlate this with what we read in Matthew 24 (v36), “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

The word “of” in this passage may seem insignificant, but it is not. The Greek word is peri which essentially means concerning or about. The ESV renders it this way, “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” I put this out there only as a point of consideration since Zechariah states that this unique day is known only to The Lord, and Jesus echoes this sentiment when He states that only The Father knows about that day.

Consider this. When the sun is high in the sky, can you see the stars? Our local star’s light is so bright, because we are so close to it, that its brightness covers the sky blotting out the light from other stars or making them indistinguishable from our perspective.

In this same manner, the coming of The Lord and His brightness may be so bright as to blot out the light from our own star, our own moon, and all other stars making them appear to have withdrawn or disappeared. Something that bright would make night turn to day, and the sky would be lit up even if it were evening.

As far as the metaphorical, the sun going dark or not shining would be in relation to the moon turning to blood. In other words, those persecuted would feel at that time that God had forsaken them. However, it doesn’t mean He has done so. It would merely be their perception of things from the vantage point of one persecuted. So in that sense, they would occur at the same time.
 
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"Blood Moon" is also known as, "Hunters Moon".
Interestingly enough the first blood moon occurs on tax day in the U.S. , April 15th, which is Jewish Passover.
And in 2014 for the first time in history Hanukkah will fall on Thanksgiving day per the U.S. Calendar.
These four blood moons happen on a high holiday four times in a row with a solar eclipse in the middle is beyond the null hypothesis of probability. (per Hagee)

The end times technically began with Pentecost over 2000 years ago
Blood Moons in Scripture:
Joel 2
Acts 2
Luke 21-Jesus prophecies these signs



I love the narrator voice in this short video: This is a short Hagee interview. He briefly synopsizes the occurrences of blood moons and historic milestones. It's particularly interesting at the 7:00 mark.
Dateline Israel : Signs in the Heavens of a Four Blood Moon Tetrad in 2014 and 2015 (Oct 16, 2013) - YouTube



This book has caught my eye recently. I haven't read it yet but I thought it looks interesting. It has 601 reviews and 4.5 stars on Amazon.

Four Blood Moons: Something Is About to Change Paperback
by John Hagee (Author)
Before you buy it you might check your local public library. It's available at my library and comes in either book format or unabridged audio-book. Or if your library doesn't carry it check to see if they participate in the inter-library loan program. This is where libraries borrow from one another in a network that incorporates the collections of different states public libraries sharing collections.
It's far better to borrow and find out if it's worth the read and/or money.

This is the full Hagee sermon on the four blood moons of scripture. Of course the book goes into more detail but this may let you know what you think of going deeper into that study. If you have the time. I found it was worth it. I'm on an enormous holds list for the audio-book version at my local library.

Blood Moons by John Hagee (Full Sermon) - YouTube

You know I thought this was the place about end times stuff. Red moon is definitely end time stuff IMHO. I'm not asking about moons. The little brat down the road does that to passers by.
Yes, that's exactly what this forum is about. Proceed with what is important and pray for that brat down the road.:prayer: ;)

What Does The Bible Say About Four Blood Moons



<Click For a really gorgeous BM wallpaper
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I think red moons definitely mean the end time stuff is about to begin. There is something to be found with these ones. I can't find anyone who has found it. I don't think it's that hard to find. I am not that smart. I must have had a Helper. I watched the Hagee video. The graphics at the beginning were cool. I wouldn't spend money on his book.
In the second hour of Hagee's video he quoted this from Joel 2:30:

“And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke."

He immediately concluded: "Now this describes a war on the ground". I think that Mr. Hagee has not yet seen God's wrath break out.

Two sets of solar/lunar eclipses are about to carve out a peculiar number of days that is too precise to be coincidental. I would be getting ready, just in case.

(50 posts before I can post a picture? It might as well be 1335)
Just make fifteen posts in a row, then you're good to go.
 
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WatchmanDave,
I just found your question. A = up to v29, because so many reference points up to that are in 1st century Judea, and yes there were some signs and wonders. See the thread here at E&P called 'Holford's Summary of Josephus on the DofJ' and also the '7 signs mentioned by Josephus'. It is unfortunately older English and hard to read (so is Josephus) but it will show you some things did happen.

However after v29 you may notice that the reference points are global or universal. There was originally no delay between the two but obviously 2 Pet 3 was written to say there was a delay for redemptive reasons. Mk 13:35 is not for redemptive reasons, it just allows quite a lot of range for the return, as we now know.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I watched Hagee's four blood moons on youtube, and I was glad for him doing it, but he is not the originator of the info. Others are on youtube who first brought it up, and you can do a search for that.

I do not agree with some of Hagee's conclusions and ideas about end times, as I follow the teaching of Walid shoebat who shows us the end times from the Bible, and not from western tradition -Hagee is still in the western tradition mode and that, Walid proves, we are far beyond.

Walid takes you through Scriptures that show the end times as they are actually laid out in the word from the middle east perspective. Walid is not sure when the rapture is, as that is not his area of study, but he does the best job on end times using Scripture than anyone else, and I believe God raised him up for this time. Also Jonathan Cahn and a few others do a very good job.

I think Mark Blitz first brought out the four blood moons on Jewish feast days coming in 2014 -2015, with a total solar eclipse in the middle of them, but all as seen from Jerusalem, and not all over the world. I do not care for Mark Blitz' style of talking however, as he is hard to listen to, but I do think he said it first...Hagee came after. Otherwise I do not follow Hagee at all.

But as to the blood moons, there is no sign for the rapture, and all the signs belong to the sign nation, Israel.

It will be exciting to be raptured and watch these events from heaven, but it will also be exciting to see God bring Israel closer and closer to His final restoration of them as a nation through the events of these very last of the last days of this age, before the Sabbath Millennium.
 
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I have put Holford's 7 signs during the DofJ toward the top of the forum thread list so you can see the signs as recorded in history, to compare.

Hagee handles the OT like the NT did not exist.

Shoebat doesn't know when the rapture is, but is an expert on end times from a middle east view? Hooey.

The Bible does not exist to prognosticate world events, other than the bare fact of God's judgement. It exists to proclaim the Gospel that the day of judgement has already taken place in the event of Jesus Christ, so that God can justify sinners through him. That kindness of God is what leads men to repentance and to God's mission. We are not here to 'know everything' to know all prophecy, to have our security based on knowing everything that will happen. Very dangerous way of thinking.
 
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