Wine vs. Grape Juice

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
That post says:


Nothing in it says anybody is saved by taking communion.


The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." John 6:52-58

What did Jesus Christ mean by those words?

I think Paul explains fairly directly that this is in reference to the Real Presence in the sacrament of the Eucharist.
1 Cor. 11:27-29 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.​
You see bread with your eyes. But you discern the body. This is the essence of a sacramental sign.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know what Mr Polo is suggesting...
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Good point :thumbsup:
What about Anglicans?
As you might expect, any generalization about Anglican belief or practice is going to be open to second-guessing, but I think the best answer would be close to what Tangible said.
 
Upvote 0

SwordFall

Junior Member
Oct 4, 2013
1,071
37
✟1,454.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I just found out that grape juice as a drink wasn't even around until 1869. It was too impractical, having little life without a specific pasteurization.

The only way people could drink grape juice was if they squashed the grapes and consumed it soon after.
If it was to be kept for a length of time, especially on the opposite side of the year well before more grapes harvest, people were drinking wine.

Add that to the fact that wine is historically the main drink beyond fresh water, which was often scarce, and you pretty much simply put the 'grape juice' argument to bed.
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I just found out that grape juice as a drink wasn't even around until 1869. It was too impractical, having little life without a specific pasteurization.

The only way people could drink grape juice was if they squashed the grapes and consumed it soon after.
If it was to be kept for a length of time, especially on the opposite side of the year well before more grapes harvest, people were drinking wine.

Add that to the fact that wine is historically the main drink beyond fresh water, which was often scarce, and you pretty much simply put the 'grape juice' argument to bed.

Strawman argument.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Jesus Christ drank unfermented grape juice at the Last Supper.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟25,153.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Grape juice wasn't invented yet? How did the Israelites make wine then?

Well then, mash some grapes, keep it until Passover and I have a feeling it won't be grape juice any more. I've not yet seen grapes in Spring in the northern hemisphere. Late summer is the harvest.
 
Upvote 0

SwordFall

Junior Member
Oct 4, 2013
1,071
37
✟1,454.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Strawman argument.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Jesus Christ drank unfermented grape juice at the Last Supper.

I think it's lame that one would want to use grape juice instead of wine because it has alcohol.
That's the real reason. Nobody arbitrarily just ups and decides to switch to something that is traditional and accurate to something as extraordinary as the LS.

And that's basically making a holier than thou standing against the Apostles and Jesus himself. In a way, it is transgressing because of the intent.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟25,153.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Strawman argument.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Jesus Christ drank unfermented grape juice at the Last Supper.

Oh, I've had some from this very forum say just that. That Jesus would never drink anything containing alcohol.
As we are speaking of communion, how is it a strawman to point out what was used at the first one?
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟58,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There is yeast on/in the grape that will begin the fermenation process on its own. But it has to be sealed away from oxygen as well or it will spoil or turn to vinegar (depending on how well and how soon your get it sealed). That's speaking of unpasteurized grape juice, btw. Pasteurized grape juice, once exposed to air, will develop botulism if then resealed.

Yes, yeast is what I meant.

That's interesting about the symbolism of sealing away (as in sealed burial tomb). It'd indicate the process of fermentation hadn't quite begun at the Last Supper; ie pressed grapes to drink.

And the vinegar/gall they gave Him.
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Well then, mash some grapes, keep it until Passover and I have a feeling it won't be grape juice any more. I've not yet seen grapes in Spring in the northern hemisphere. Late summer is the harvest.

Of course, there were no refrigerators back then to keep the juice fresh. However, this doesn't change the fact that people drank juice from freshly squeezed grapes even before the time of Moses.
 
Upvote 0

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I think it's lame that one would want to use grape juice instead of wine because it has alcohol.
That's the real reason. Nobody arbitrarily just ups and decides to switch to something that is traditional and accurate to something as extraordinary as the LS.

And that's basically making a holier than thou standing against the Apostles and Jesus himself. In a way, it is transgressing because of the intent.

Don't make me laugh. There is nothing wrong with substituting wine for grape juice. Nothing wrong whatsoever, since both drinks are derived entirely from grapes (fruit of the vine).

Where does it say that only wine is to be used for the LORD's Supper? I've asked this question numerous times, but none have managed to give me any answer.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Oh, I've had some from this very forum say just that. That Jesus would never drink anything containing alcohol.
As we are speaking of communion, how is it a strawman to point out what was used at the first one?

because no one argued otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟25,153.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Of course, there were no refrigerators back then to keep the juice fresh. However, this doesn't change the fact that people drank juice from freshly squeezed grapes even before the time of Moses.
I would imagine that some did actually drink freshly mashed gape juice. Now what that that have to do with communion or the Lord's Supper which occurred in the Spring were no fresh grapes are around?
I think the whole point of pressing grapes was to make wine in those days. One would need to be quick to get some unfermented juice as grapes make wine rapidly.
I note something about sealing the fermenting juice is mentioned. It's not a given that not doing that would cause vinegar. it's only more likely that such can occur. Many have made wine covering only with a cloth to keep out bugs.
Sealing it up would cause it to explode. I use a one way water valve to let the CO2 escape. Only after fermentation is finished can one actually seal it and still a secondary fermentation can occur and even burst a modern bottle. I use camden to kill any remaining yeast to resolve that issue. Cleaning up that mess teaches you well.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by Lion King
You do understand that grape juice is of the fruit of the vine right?

Wine (fermented grape juice) = fruit of the vine
Unfermented grape juice = fruit of the vine.

Now, where is your evidence that the Scriptures says we are only to use wine at the LORD's Supper?
Actually grapes. Grapes are the fruit of the vine.

And you taking that to an extreme literal is not proof, that's just plain stupid.

You are wrong, just deal with it.
:)

"Grapes" is used in Revelation. Do those signify literal or symbolic grapes?

YLT Search Results for "grapes"
"grapes"
occurs 19 times in 17 verses in the YLT.

1Cr 9:7
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk?

Rev 14:18
and another Messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire.
And he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, "send forth thy sharp sickle! and gather! the clusters of the vine of the land, because come to perfection have her grapes".
19 The Messenger swung his sickle on the land, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.




...............................................
grapes+of+wrath.jpg
 
Upvote 0

SwordFall

Junior Member
Oct 4, 2013
1,071
37
✟1,454.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Don't make me laugh. There is nothing wrong with substituting wine for grape juice. Nothing wrong whatsoever, since both drinks are derived entirely from grapes (fruit of the vine).

Where does it say that only wine is to be used for the LORD's Supper? I've asked this question numerous times, but none have managed to give me any answer.

Besides the fact that Jesus said to drink this drink and eat this bread, one which was wine and the other which was unleavened?
You've simply been grasping at straws through this whole thread.

But you could drink grape soda, it wouldn't matter because the last time I checked the Church doesn't even recognize the Eucharist outside it's communion.

And most find it to be utterly symbolic, so this is a meaningless discussion anyhow.
If one put any importance to it other then a good gesture then it would be errant to not use wine. Case closed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟25,153.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You could drink grape soda, it wouldn't matter because the last time I checked the Church doesn't even recognize the Eucharist outside it's communion.

And most find it to be utterly symbolic, so this is a meaningless discussion anyhow.
If one put any importance to it other then a good gesture then it would be errant to not use wine. Case closed.
I hear Jim Jones used Kool Aid and it didn't work out so well.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟25,153.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Don't make me laugh. There is nothing wrong with substituting wine for grape juice. Nothing wrong whatsoever, since both drinks are derived entirely from grapes (fruit of the vine).

Where does it say that only wine is to be used for the LORD's Supper? I've asked this question numerous times, but none have managed to give me any answer.
Where does it say it's fine to use juice? What was in the cup before he blessed it?(written in that fashion to include the Catholic)
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Okay, my immediate disclaimer is that I am aware that there is a "Sacrament/Ordinance" sub-forum, but I think I will receive more responses with this post here. :)

The use of wine vs. grape juice for communion has, in recent times, become one of my faith stumbling blocks as I try to seek a faith home.
Some of my threads have been moved off GT to other sub-boards.
After that, they would just "die". :sorry:

If this thread involves the sacrament of the "Eucharist", then it belongs on a different board...IMHO


.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
:)


...............................................
grapes+of+wrath.jpg

I read that and other Steinbeck books years ago. I found everything I've read by him depressing. I'm not a fan.
What did you find depressing? I haven't read Steinbeck, so I can't comment on him.



.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Lion King

Veni, vidi, vici
Mar 29, 2011
7,360
578
Heavenly Jerusalem- Mount Zion
✟10,388.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I would imagine that some did actually drink freshly mashed gape juice. Now what that that have to do with communion or the Lord's Supper which occurred in the Spring were no fresh grapes are around.

Some people were arguing that nobody drank grape juice in the ancient times because it wasn't invented yet (or whatever that means), so the term "fruit of the vine" can only mean wine and nothing else.

Therefore, only wine is to be used at the LORD's Supper.
 
Upvote 0