Are Catholics Right About Faith + Deeds?

Vanguard PCD

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I understand that Catholics believe in salvation through faith + good deeds. I also know very well what Revelation 20:11-15 says:

NASB
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If you pay close attention to Rev 20:12-13, you will see where the dead were raised and then judged according to their deeds.

It would seem that, based on the Book of Revelation, it takes more than just faith in Jesus in order to be saved. According to those verses, faith without good deeds = a one way trip to the Lake of Fire [Gehenna].

I am fully aware of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am also of the opinion that those verses have been taken out of context and misinterpreted by Protestants, namely because of Revelation 20. For every verse supporting Sola Fide, there are just as many that counter it.

Thoughts?

Note: I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I find myself intrigued by some of the RCC and EO teachings, though I could never be one because of my own differing beliefs.
 
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Vanguard PCD

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It would seem that, based on the Book of Revelation, it takes more than just faith in Jesus in order to be saved. According to those verses, faith without good deeds = a one way trip to the Lake of Fire [Gehenna].

I am fully aware of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am also of the opinion that those verses have been taken out of context and misinterpreted by Protestants, namely because of Revelation 20. For every verse supporting Sola Fide, there are just as many that counter it.

To expand on this section futher, I know the typical Protestant view is that through faith you should be doing good works, as a demonstration of your faith. But it is your faith alone, in Jesus, that actually saves you.

Revelation 20 seems to disagree with that notion. If you use the principles of hermeneutics, the opposite would be that:

'Those whose names are not in the Book because of their lack of good deeds, even though they professed their faith, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire because they did not live through their faith and produce good [works].'

In other words, just because you accept Jesus and claim to be a Christian, it is not enough. Without good deeds [works], faith is dead [meaningless].

As much as I disagree with them, the Catholics may be on to something here...

After thought: might I also point you in the direction of James 2:14-26.
 
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Willie T

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I think if you will read it again, and understand that ALL are judged by their works.... (the first set of books opened up.), you will see something surprisingly plain.

And we know that NONE are going to be found worthy because of our deeds... not one of us.

This is where the OTHER book comes in. The Book of Life.

No matter if you had a pretty impressive record of good deeds... or not, you are still found lacking (ALL of us)

If your name is NOT in The Book of Life... it is the fire for you. That would be ALL of us if there is no other way out.

BUT, there IS a way out. If your name IS in The Book of Life (nothing at all about qualifying "works"... just the fact that your name is seen there in the Book of those that accepted Christ), then you are saved from the fate of those not accepting Christ.
 
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Willie T

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The real problem here is that nothing at all is said about finding good deeds... Simply that all of us are going to be judged by our deeds... and not one single one of us (as the Bible says, "No not one") is going to be found worthy by our deeds no matter how many, nor how good we hope they will be.

It is your name being found in that OTHER book that will pull you away from the flames... nothing else.

There is not one single word in all those verses that mentions good deeds... or bad... just "their deeds". And as the Bible is all too clear in many places, ALL deeds fail to make anyone righteous.
 
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Andrea411

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I understand that Catholics believe in salvation through faith + good deeds. I also know very well what Revelation 20:11-15 says:

NASB
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If you pay close attention to Rev 20:12-13, you will see where the dead were raised and then judged according to their deeds.

It would seem that, based on the Book of Revelation, it takes more than just faith in Jesus in order to be saved. According to those verses, faith without good deeds = a one way trip to the Lake of Fire [Gehenna].

I am fully aware of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am also of the opinion that those verses have been taken out of context and misinterpreted by Protestants, namely because of Revelation 20. For every verse supporting Sola Fide, there are just as many that counter it.

Thoughts?

Note: I grew up as a Southern Baptist. I find myself intrigued by some of the RCC and EO teachings, though I could never be one because of my own differing beliefs.
I too have studied about the RCC and when I read their explanations of what they believe, it seems very logical. I have a problem with the fruit of their religion. I know Catholics that are saved but so many more that take communion and seem to not think about Jesus the rest of the year. IDK.
I don't buy the apostolic succession bc some of the popes have murdered the previous pope in that succession. Seems the anointing would have been broken in there somewhere??
Of course Protestants, Charismatics, non-denominational… we all have a problem somewhere. I know we stand before Christ alone, there will be no pope, pastor or other to defend us and certainly nothing but the blood of Jesus would do anyway. I have to take the position that we are saved by faith, sanctified by the Holy Spirit to be used in the body of Christ. That said, the thief on the cross went to heaven…. no time for good works. I'd think the work of God is to believe. We must be walking in faith…
There was no New Testament for 300 years, no RCC or Orthodox church for many years… what happens in between and the Protestants didn't come along for over a thousand years….
"Whoever comes to me I will never cast out." John 6:37

we are not saved by our denomination, doctrine or theology

not that you can't walk away but He promises He will not let you go…. I only know for me there is no other way…. I would follow Him wherever it takes….


God bless, andrea
 
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AFM

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I would agree that most protestants seem to misinterpret Ephesians 2:8-9. Grace saves, so that you can accomplish the works you should. But instead it seems to be interpreted that you can do whatever you want and go to Heaven.

Indeed, there seem to be a great many Christians who profess faith without showing works. Indeed, 'Faith without works is dead'. Which, I think, is saying that your faith has to have works if it is alive, because it isn't a living faith if it doesn't show works. Elsewhere it says that even the devils believe in God!

I think you are saved by faith, but salvation necessitates works, not to save, but as a working of your faith. It's like if you keep faith locked up in a jail cell without ever going outside and exposing itself, it'll probably die reeeeal quick.
 
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Willie T

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I live in a church just full of people who prove just the opposite almost every day.
Almost every person I have spoken with says that when they finally understood grace, they found that they began doing about twice as much as they ever did before when living under the law.

It seems the understanding that you "get to" do good for other people, rather than believing we "have to" has you literally tripping over so many more opportunities than you even realized existed before. The overflow of God that you experience doesn't simply have you making sure you did enough, but it has you looking for even more to do all the time.

I don't think I would have understood it until I experienced it. In fact, I KNOW I didn't. Couldn't.
 
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AvilaSurfer

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I firmly believe that anyone can find something in the Bible to support their own beliefs, even if it has to be twisted. But to believe that good works are not salvific is just silly. Jesus tells us several times how to live, how to treat others, how to do good works. If some want to go against Jesus' words, fine.
 
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Alithis

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I firmly believe that anyone can find something in the Bible to support their own beliefs, even if it has to be twisted. But to believe that good works are not salvific is just silly. Jesus tells us several times how to live, how to treat others, how to do good works. If some want to go against Jesus' words, fine.

works dont save

faith in jesus allows jesus to save us.
faith is the first deed that could be called good. the act of exercising faith in the Lord is the only good work unto salvation we can ever do.
all other works are done not to be saved but because one is already saved.works themselves are also of little worth except they be in obedience to the Spirit of God.
One can do a thousand good deeds.but if they dont do the ONE thing the Lord Jesus is asking of them they remain in disobedience
and he shall say to them depart from me i do not know you.
it is not those who know the good news(gospel)but those who are obedient once they have recieved it.
:)
 
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Alithis

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Faith is a prerequisite, obviously. But you can't have faith and ignore everything else.

thats true.
but works are the evidence of faith.
Just as apples are the evidence of what kind of tree it is.

its a pity this topic has been started using the term catholics ,as it kind of presents the topic from an aggresive stance.
Sure any one who knows me knows i am openly opposed to the doctrines of rome.
but this topic has much merit in discussion on its own .
 
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Alithis

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anyone with true faith, trusting in Jesus, will be in complete obedience to what Jesus said. including taking on his very nature so that "good" deeds are automatic.

i get what you say and do not outrightly disagree.as in general principle .
but it implies a one size fits all robotic relationship with the lord.
it also ,by implication, disallows for an individual to hear his voice and obey him .the book of acts is a wonderful example of this individual obedience to the holy
spirit .with the lord telling one to go here and another to go there.
so while general good deeds are fine.one can be doing them sacrificially to try and compensate for not simply obeying what the lord is asking of them. king Saul did this.hence Samuels rebuke telling him "it is better to obey then to sacrifice".

so it is better to obey the one thing at a time the lord is speaking to you about.then to run around doing a hundred good deeds .
 
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if we have true faith in Jesus, then we are in obedience, as he was to the Father. A disciple imitates the Master, including his very nature, with the Holy Spirit. Jesus listened to the Father as we should. If we take on his nature in faith, we will do everything in love. The deeds will automatically follow.
 
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Alithis

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is that what Jesus did?

well yes.

he stated so many times. he did not go about doing random good works. he was being obedient to the father.
john 14 29....i think.
he says he only even speaks what the father commands him to say.

he is obedience personified you might say.
The Lord Jesus said ..my sheep hear my voice and i know them and they follow me.. he. didnot say they run about doing thier own will.for thats how sheep go astray .
if we listen to the holy spirit and obey him.we will not only do a .bunch of randolm good works.we will do the specific good works he had planned for us before the creation of the world.
after all,the nature of Christ,is one of absolute obedience to the father.
:).
 
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OldStudent

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I would like to lay some passages beside yours and suggest an aspect of this discussion that doesn’t seem to get enough play. I would like to open with the passage in Jeremiah 31:31-33. This is where the term “new covenant” is coined. A careful reading reveals a, if not THE, key to the intent of the passage: “I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts.” But this was not such a new idea as David wrote centuries before, “Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts… Create in me a clean heart, O God: and renew a right spirit within me” Ps 51.

“…out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh” Matthew 12:34. The mouth isn’t our only instrument of communication, we say even more by what we do with our hands - our service.

We love John 3:16 and 17. Relatively few continue reading because verses 18, 19, 20 are very plain and heavy about those wish to avoid the light of Christ. But verse 21 contains some fascinating language: “But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” Here we see “truth” as a verb not a noun. Truth here is something you do. But we are not responsible for the doing – “they are wrought in God” – they are God’s work. “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” Galatians 2:20.

You mention Ephesians 2:8 and 9. But continue to verse 10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

This could be continued. But here are some key points. A fair amount of my commute time is tuned to Catholic radio. What I hear them say is that works, works of penance, are meritorious toward salvation. A key part of Protestant thought is that works do nothing for our salvation. Some Protestant thought goes so far as to say that what we do has nothing to do with salvation. But when it is all put together: As the work of salvation advances God writes His law, His desires on our hearts (with our permission). Since that then becomes our nature what we do then becomes a natural expression of who we now are. What we do, then, becomes reliable evidence of W/whose we are. Works are not a cause or even a contributor to our salvation – it is a consequence, a result of our salvation, of God working in us and through us.
 
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