Calvinists: Can babies go to heaven?

FreeGrace2

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1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Those who believe in universalism seem to leave out the end of that sentence.
I totally reject universalism. I also reject that God condemns infants to hell because they have no capacity to understand the promise of eternal life through faith. I believe that Christ died for everyone, so that those who will not reach a level where they can understand God's promise and place faith in Christ will go to heaven.

[QJUOTE]Second, "refuse the evil and choose the good" is not presented as a criteria for who is liable for their sin through Adam and who is not.[/QUOTE]
What is your opinion as to what that phrase refers to? It clearly indicates a time in the human life when Jesus "knew enough to refuse the evil and choose the good". Though the phrase was used of Jesus, why would it not also apply to the rest of humanity? Unless there is any really good rational reason, I'm going to stay with my view.

Man is conceived in iniquity and "every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Gen 6:5) There is no age limit on this, and not surprisingly, the flood killed old and young.
This is irrelevant.
 
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abacabb3

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I believe that Christ died for everyone, so that those who will not reach a level where they can understand God's promise and place faith in Christ will go to heaven.
Where does the Bible lay that out?

Second, "refuse the evil and choose the good" is not presented as a criteria for who is liable for their sin through Adam and who is not.

What is your opinion as to what that phrase refers to? It clearly indicates a time in the human life when Jesus "knew enough to refuse the evil and choose the good." Though the phrase was used of Jesus, why would it not also apply to the rest of humanity?

You are referring to Isaiah 7:15-16, but likely you meant to refer to Deut 1:39 which states, "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." Obviously, you are presuming that not knowing how to choose between good and evil means that they have not done any evil and are not liable for any sin.

This is against the historical understanding of original sin and it requires us to understand verses such as "there is no one righteous not one," "I was conceived in iniquity," "for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth," and etcetera. For this reason, I believe your interpretation of Deut 1:39 and Isaiah 7:15-16 is incorrect.

My understanding of those verses is that knowing what is right and wrong does not negate the fact that all men are imputed Adam's sin from birth. Often times, we sin without not even knowing it. So, not knowing one's sin does not make that person less of a sinner.

Just as a statement of fact, it has been scientifically proven that even infants less than a year old act deceptively. So, if you reject "original sin" you would be unhappy to know that even at extremely young ages sin is apparent.

Lastly, there are sins of omission. I do wrong when I do not love my Lord with my whole heart. I also did wrong when I did not love my Lord with my whole heart when I was a day old. When I was an 18 year old atheist, and I did not know it was wrong not to love God, was I not sinning because I did not know? I reject that explanation.

This is irrelevant.
It is the consistent testimony of Scripture. See Genesis 8:21, which specifically restates the same words ad verbatim but applies it to children.
 
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Ignatius21

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Obviously, you are presuming that not knowing how to choose between good and evil means that they have not done any evil and are not liable for any sin.

This is against the historical understanding of original sin...


...So, if you reject "original sin" you would be unhappy to know that even at extremely young ages sin is apparent.

Sorry to stick my nose into this, but...

Which "the historical understanding of original sin" are you referring to? For how long has it been universally accepted as the historical understanding of original sin?
 
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abacabb3

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Sorry to stick my nose into this, but...

Which "the historical understanding of original sin" are you referring to? For how long has it been universally accepted as the historical understanding of original sin?

I have to brush up on my church history, but I would presume Augustine.

Here's an important question: are infants not imputed the sin of Adam? if these idea is not agreed to, then people are going to be merely speaking pass each other. It wouldn't be worth even having a conversation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Where does the Bible lay that out?
Not in one specific place. But since it is obvious to everyone that infants cannot comprehend and place their trust in the promise of eternal life, how can God hold them accountable for what they don't have the ability to accept OR reject? That doesn't make sense and is not a reasonable view.

You are referring to Isaiah 7:15-16, but likely you meant to refer to Deut 1:39 which states, "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." Obviously, you are presuming that not knowing how to choose between good and evil means that they have not done any evil and are not liable for any sin.
So, you really didn't look up the Isa passage, huh. OK, I'll give it to you:
14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 “He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 “For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

This is against the historical understanding of original sin and it requires us to understand verses such as "there is no one righteous not one," "I was conceived in iniquity," "for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth," and etcetera.
It has NO bearing on original sin. Yes, all are born corrupted by Adam's sin. But accountability for one's sin occurs when one "knows enough" to refuse the evil and choose the good. Infants do NOT "know enough" to do that.

For this reason, I believe your interpretation of Deut 1:39 and Isaiah 7:15-16 is incorrect.
Everyone is free to their opinion, but it seems to me that you have ignored the significance of Isa 7:15-16.

My understanding of those verses is that knowing what is right and wrong does not negate the fact that all men are imputed Adam's sin from birth. Often times, we sin without not even knowing it. So, not knowing one's sin does not make that person less of a sinner.
How in the world can Isa 7:15-16 refer to this, given that it was said of Jesus Christ?? He did NOT have a sin nature. So your application is incorrect, not mine.

Just as a statement of fact, it has been scientifically proven that even infants less than a year old act deceptively. So, if you reject "original sin" you would be unhappy to know that even at extremely young ages sin is apparent.
Your fact is irrelevant. I'm not saying that infants aren't sinners. ALL BABIES ARE BORN SINNERS. OK? However, God's system of sacrifice in the OT included sacrifices for unintentional sin. There wasn't for intentional sin.

Can you find ANY source that can prove that infants can comprehend abstract information? Such as the existence of God, their personal sin condition, and the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ? Of course you can't. Babies are UNABLE to do that.

Lastly, there are sins of omission. I do wrong when I do not love my Lord with my whole heart. I also did wrong when I did not love my Lord with my whole heart when I was a day old. When I was an 18 year old atheist, and I did not know it was wrong not to love God, was I not sinning because I did not know? I reject that explanation.
Of course you were. I'm NOT saying that infants don't sin. That isn't the issue. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. That includes all the infants. Their sins have been paid for.

When they "know enough" to understand the gospel message, then God DOES hold them accountable for whether they "refuse the evil and choose the good".

It is the consistent testimony of Scripture. See Genesis 8:21, which specifically restates the same words ad verbatim but applies it to children.
Please check a lexicon. The word for "children" means "youth/childhood/young people". NOT infants.

It appears that you have confused the difference between guilt and accountability.

By applying your view to life, then NO infants or the mentally disabled will go to heaven. Is that your view?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Here's an important question: are infants not imputed the sin of Adam? if these idea is not agreed to, then people are going to be merely speaking pass each other. It wouldn't be worth even having a conversation.
Of course Adam's sin is imputed to EVERYONE. But Christ died for everyone, which so far, you haven't addressed.

Until a person "knows enough" to understand and either refuse or choose God's free gift of eternal life, they AREN'T accountable for their lack of faith.

Man is accountable WHEN man is able. Not before.

If you disagree, please explain a situation where someone is held accountable for actions that they had no knowledge of.
 
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Ignatius21

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I have to brush up on my church history, but I would presume Augustine.

Here's an important question: are infants not imputed the sin of Adam? if these idea is not agreed to, then people are going to be merely speaking pass each other. It wouldn't be worth even having a conversation.

Augustine's doctrine, or some variant, is pretty much at the root of most Protestant churches, and also the Catholic Church. It seems to be widely interpreted, but the fundamental idea that all humans are born guilty of Adam's sin, as though every person had individually committed that sin him or herself, is fairly consistent. Non-Latin churches, which came to be known as Eastern Orthodox or Oriental/Coptic Orthodox, never had that particular view. So the discussion you're having only makes sense within the "western" history of Christianity, while overlooking the rest of it.

You're correct, though, that if two people disagree on that underlying understanding, then their conversation won't go very far. And I don't share your underlying view of original sin, so I will bow out and not derail things. I will just say that the "eastern" view of original sin, while also interpreted broadly, does not share the view that all are born guilty of sin deserving eternal damnation. Rather, all are born into sin. All bear the effects of Adam's sin, namely death, and before Christ, all were born into bondage to sin and death.

Kind of like, if your parents became enslaved to someone else, whether through debt or through being conquered, you were born into that same bondage with no way out unless you were redeemed...more accurately unless your family were redeemed. So on the eastern view, Christ redeemed humanity and not just individual humans. Thus it is true to say that in one sense, all people are saved, and in the other sense, only those who are of faith are saved. Death has been overthrown, all will be raised--thus the atonement was in fact universal. What each person experiences in the resurrection is determined by how that person lived, and whether that person is united to Christ or separated from him. But in the end all will be in his presence...there is nowhere else to go. Some will rejoice in the Lord they love, others will suffer in the presence of the Lord they rejected.

So if we want to use the word "imputed," then we could say that death is imputed, or the consequences of Adam's sin are imputed to all of humanity. Christ's liberation and conquest of death are therefore also imputed to all of humanity. But guilt is individual, in the sense of judgment.
 
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abacabb3

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Rather, all are born into sin. All bear the effects of Adam's sin, namely death, and before Christ, all were born into bondage to sin and death.

Kind of like, if your parents became enslaved to someone else, whether through debt or through being conquered, you were born into that same bondage with no way out unless you were redeemed...more accurately unless your family were redeemed. So on the eastern view, Christ redeemed humanity and not just individual humans. Thus it is true to say that in one sense, all people are saved, and in the other sense, only those who are of faith are saved. Death has been overthrown, all will be raised--thus the atonement was in fact universal. What each person experiences in the resurrection is determined by how that person lived, and whether that person is united to Christ or separated from him.
I appreciate your explanation and i am going to try to tie it back into the topic.

Even if atonement is universal, salvation still comes from the righteousness credited to us by our union with Jesus Christ.

First, union with Christ exists only for believers, so this would not include babies and children that don't believe.

Second, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) The words "except babies," "except those born in a Muslim/Buddhist/Atheist country," or except whatever else are not in the end of that sentence. The fact "there is no one righteous, not one" puts every human being under condemnation.

To quote Paul:

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14)

Because no one, including infants and whomever else, has upheld the whole Law, humanity is under "the curse of the Law." Our redemption from the curse comes from, not the parents' faith, but the faith of the individual in Christ alone.

Outside of an aspect of God's grace that is not testified in Scripture for whatever reason, to me the conclusion is inescapable. All are under sin and only faith in Christ delivers man from it. And this faith is not of one's own, so that no one may boast.
 
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abacabb3

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Of course Adam's sin is imputed to EVERYONE. But Christ died for everyone, which so far, you haven't addressed.
Yes, but Christ's work on the cross only becomes effective to the believer.

How can God hold them accountable for what they don't have the ability to accept OR reject? That doesn't make sense and is not a reasonable view.
If I was born in medieval Cambodia and never heard of Christ because the region was unreached, was I saved by default? Lack of knowledge is not a reasonable explanation, otherwise missionary work would not be imperative, as made clear in Scripture. The universal testimony of Scripture is that "all" are under sin, and the words "but" and "besides" don't appear next to "all."

So, you really didn't look up the Isa passage, huh.
You quoted it and I went to show how you are misunderstanding the terminology in both passages.

It has NO bearing on original sin. Yes, all are born corrupted by Adam's sin. But accountability for one's sin occurs when one "knows enough" to refuse the evil and choose the good. Infants do NOT "know enough" to do that.

The "age of accountability" is not a biblical doctrine, however, It has been invented by man, because the idea of little children being accountable for sin is repugnant to many. However, we should conform our minds to a biblical view, not conform the Bible to a man-centered view.

Everyone is free to their opinion, but it seems to me that you have ignored the significance of Isa 7:15-16.

How in the world can Isa 7:15-16 refer to this, given that it was said of Jesus Christ?? He did NOT have a sin nature. So your application is incorrect, not mine.

I was really hoping to avoid getting into "Christology," as I find it very divisive and confusing, but I can tell you the little I know that pertains to what you are quoting in Isaiah. It is my opinion, that Christ is God, that even as an infant though trapped in a human body He had all the knowledge that God has. The human soul is not confined to the neurochemical limitations of a 2 month old brain, and being that Christ is divine, surely as a baby He was fully God made flesh. That's why he was able not each even as young as 12 years old.

So, I don't think that Isa 7:15-16 really applies to Jesus himself, but specifically to the direct fulfillment in Isaiah 8:3 with the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. In fact, the prophecy continues on to tell about how the King of Assyria will bring destruction before that baby is of age.

What you are confusing is that in biblical prophecy, especially when it pertains to Jesus, the prophecy exists within a different prophecy that merely foreshadows the event accomplished in Christ.

This is very common in the Bible. You can still read the story of Sarah and Hagar apart from the interpretation in Galatians 4, but you just don't get the whole story about in their lives is a testimony concerning the old and new covenants. Furthermore, you can read Hosea where it says "out of Egypt I called my son," and even though it applies to Jesus as Matthew points out, it also applies to the Israel of the Exodus in the context in Hosea. So, to apply Is 7:15-16 to Jesus specifically is like applying verse 2 of Hosea 11 to Jesus, which is obviously not the case.

Lastly, being that Jesus did not have a human father, by a divine mystery he was not imputed Adam's sin.

However, God's system of sacrifice in the OT included sacrifices for unintentional sin. There wasn't for intentional sin. I'm NOT saying that infants don't sin. That isn't the issue. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. That includes all the infants. Their sins have been paid for.

Christ's sacrifice only becomes effective upon belief, however.

When they "know enough" to understand the gospel message, then God DOES hold them accountable for whether they "refuse the evil and choose the good".
Again, the terms "refuse the evil..." do not endorse a doctrine pertaining to a supposed age of accountability. The verse you quote does not even discuss that. Please show me how it does or do not use it, because the age thing was a way of Isaiah telling the king of judea when events were going to unfold, not to explain how babies are saved by Christ.

Please check a lexicon. The word for "children" means "youth/childhood/young people". NOT infants.
Again "no one is righteous, not one" includes babies, the passages in Genesis reflect all of mankind, God killed all of mankind in the flood, He did not spare babies. THis is the smoking gun, because the passages about the inclination of man's heart being continually evil obviously is the precursor to the flood as punishment. There is a necessary connection between the punishment and the deserved nature of it to all that are punished by it.

By applying your view to life, then NO infants or the mentally disabled will go to heaven. Is that your view?

It would appear to me that they were not predestined, yet they are imputed sin.

Until a person "knows enough" to understand and either refuse or choose God's free gift of eternal life, they AREN'T accountable for their lack of faith.
Where does the Bible say that anyone is not accountable? It seems to me an invention of man, such an idea, I cannot find it in His revelation.

If you disagree, please explain a situation where someone is held accountable for actions that they had no knowledge of.

This happens all the time. People born in a promiscuous and materialistic society will discount the very real evils that taking part in these things spawns. But, I will ground us in a Biblical example:

The high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?” But the bystanders said, “Do you revile God’s high priest?” And Paul said, “I was not aware, brethren, that he was high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’” (Acts 23:2-5)

So, Paul committed wrong, even though until he was corrected, he didn't know that he did. When he was told and then became aware, he apologized. So, Paul was held accountable, even before he had the knowledge, by his own admission.

---

I think the real danger with ignoring the clear teaching that all unbelievers are under condemnation is that then the Gospel becomes obscured. All of us are blind in our sin, born into and live it from the day of birth. There was nothing in me that loved God when I was born, and not loving God is sin. I knew nothing about what was good or evil, but by necessity was born selfish for the sake of survival. The human condition is sin, through and through. Apart from this understanding of the human condition, what is the Gospel even saving people from?
 
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AndOne

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Not in one specific place. But since it is obvious to everyone that infants cannot comprehend and place their trust in the promise of eternal life, how can God hold them accountable for what they don't have the ability to accept OR reject? That doesn't make sense and is not a reasonable view.


So, you really didn't look up the Isa passage, huh. OK, I'll give it to you:
14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 “He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 “For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.


It has NO bearing on original sin. Yes, all are born corrupted by Adam's sin. But accountability for one's sin occurs when one "knows enough" to refuse the evil and choose the good. Infants do NOT "know enough" to do that.


Everyone is free to their opinion, but it seems to me that you have ignored the significance of Isa 7:15-16.


How in the world can Isa 7:15-16 refer to this, given that it was said of Jesus Christ?? He did NOT have a sin nature. So your application is incorrect, not mine.


Your fact is irrelevant. I'm not saying that infants aren't sinners. ALL BABIES ARE BORN SINNERS. OK? However, God's system of sacrifice in the OT included sacrifices for unintentional sin. There wasn't for intentional sin.

Can you find ANY source that can prove that infants can comprehend abstract information? Such as the existence of God, their personal sin condition, and the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ? Of course you can't. Babies are UNABLE to do that.


Of course you were. I'm NOT saying that infants don't sin. That isn't the issue. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. That includes all the infants. Their sins have been paid for.

When they "know enough" to understand the gospel message, then God DOES hold them accountable for whether they "refuse the evil and choose the good".


Please check a lexicon. The word for "children" means "youth/childhood/young people". NOT infants.

It appears that you have confused the difference between guilt and accountability.

By applying your view to life, then NO infants or the mentally disabled will go to heaven. Is that your view?

Romans 5:12-14 specifically says that Adam's sin was imputed to all men and that all men died - "even those who did not disobey an explicit command of God as Adam did." (Vs 14 NLT). All means all - including infants. I have scripture that actually says what I believe.
 
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reformed ttL

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Yes, but Christ's work on the cross only becomes effective to the believer.


If I was born in medieval Cambodia and never heard of Christ because the region was unreached, was I saved by default? Lack of knowledge is not a reasonable explanation, otherwise missionary work would not be imperative, as made clear in Scripture. The universal testimony of Scripture is that "all" are under sin, and the words "but" and "besides" don't appear next to "all."


You quoted it and I went to show how you are misunderstanding the terminology in both passages.



The "age of accountability" is not a biblical doctrine, however, It has been invented by man, because the idea of little children being accountable for sin is repugnant to many. However, we should conform our minds to a biblical view, not conform the Bible to a man-centered view.



I was really hoping to avoid getting into "Christology," as I find it very divisive and confusing, but I can tell you the little I know that pertains to what you are quoting in Isaiah. It is my opinion, that Christ is God, that even as an infant though trapped in a human body He had all the knowledge that God has. The human soul is not confined to the neurochemical limitations of a 2 month old brain, and being that Christ is divine, surely as a baby He was fully God made flesh. That's why he was able not each even as young as 12 years old.

So, I don't think that Isa 7:15-16 really applies to Jesus himself, but specifically to the direct fulfillment in Isaiah 8:3 with the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. In fact, the prophecy continues on to tell about how the King of Assyria will bring destruction before that baby is of age.

What you are confusing is that in biblical prophecy, especially when it pertains to Jesus, the prophecy exists within a different prophecy that merely foreshadows the event accomplished in Christ.

This is very common in the Bible. You can still read the story of Sarah and Hagar apart from the interpretation in Galatians 4, but you just don't get the whole story about in their lives is a testimony concerning the old and new covenants. Furthermore, you can read Hosea where it says "out of Egypt I called my son," and even though it applies to Jesus as Matthew points out, it also applies to the Israel of the Exodus in the context in Hosea. So, to apply Is 7:15-16 to Jesus specifically is like applying verse 2 of Hosea 11 to Jesus, which is obviously not the case.

Lastly, being that Jesus did not have a human father, by a divine mystery he was not imputed Adam's sin.



Christ's sacrifice only becomes effective upon belief, however.


Again, the terms "refuse the evil..." do not endorse a doctrine pertaining to a supposed age of accountability. The verse you quote does not even discuss that. Please show me how it does or do not use it, because the age thing was a way of Isaiah telling the king of judea when events were going to unfold, not to explain how babies are saved by Christ.


Again "no one is righteous, not one" includes babies, the passages in Genesis reflect all of mankind, God killed all of mankind in the flood, He did not spare babies. THis is the smoking gun, because the passages about the inclination of man's heart being continually evil obviously is the precursor to the flood as punishment. There is a necessary connection between the punishment and the deserved nature of it to all that are punished by it.



It would appear to me that they were not predestined, yet they are imputed sin.


Where does the Bible say that anyone is not accountable? It seems to me an invention of man, such an idea, I cannot find it in His revelation.



This happens all the time. People born in a promiscuous and materialistic society will discount the very real evils that taking part in these things spawns. But, I will ground us in a Biblical example:

The high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?” But the bystanders said, “Do you revile God’s high priest?” And Paul said, “I was not aware, brethren, that he was high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’” (Acts 23:2-5)

So, Paul committed wrong, even though until he was corrected, he didn't know that he did. When he was told and then became aware, he apologized. So, Paul was held accountable, even before he had the knowledge, by his own admission.

---

I think the real danger with ignoring the clear teaching that all unbelievers are under condemnation is that then the Gospel becomes obscured. All of us are blind in our sin, born into and live it from the day of birth. There was nothing in me that loved God when I was born, and not loving God is sin. I knew nothing about what was good or evil, but by necessity was born selfish for the sake of survival. The human condition is sin, through and through. Apart from this understanding of the human condition, what is the Gospel even saving people from?
very well said,:) thanks
 
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sdowney717

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Matthew Henry on these 'holy children', they are to be reckoned as members of Christ's church. I am in agreement. Do any of you affirm with Matthew Henry that these little children are to considered part of Christ's church?

Marriage is a divine institution; it is a compact for life, by God’s appointment. Had converse and congress with unbelievers in that relation defiled the believer, or rendered him or her offensive to God, the ends of marriage would have been defeated, and the comforts of it in a manner destroyed, in the circumstances in which Christians then were. But the apostle tells them that, though they were yoked with unbelievers, yet, if they themselves were holy, marriage was to them a holy state, and marriage comforts, even with an unbelieving relative, were sanctified enjoyments. It was no more displeasing to God for them to continue to live as they did before, with their unbelieving or heathen relation, than if they had become converts together.

If one of the relatives had become holy, nothing of the duties or lawful comforts of the married state could defile them, and render them displeasing to God, though the other were a heathen. He is sanctified for the wife’s sake. She is sanctified for the husband’s sake. Both are one flesh. He is to be reputed clean who is one flesh with her that is holy, and vice versâ:

Else were your children unclean, but now are they holy (1 Cor. 7:14), that is, they would be heathen, out of the pale of the church and covenant of God. They would not be of the holy seed (as the Jews are called, Isa. 6:13), but common and unclean, in the same sense as heathens in general were styled in the apostle’s vision, Acts 10:28.

This way of speaking is according to the dialect of the Jews, among whom a child begotten by parents yet heathens, was said to be begotten out of holiness; and a child begotten by parents made proselytes was said to be begotten intra sanctitatem—within the holy enclosure.

Thus Christians are called commonly saints; such they are by profession, separated to be a peculiar people of God, and as such distinguished from the world; and therefore the children born to Christians, though married to unbelievers, are not to be reckoned as part of the world, but of the church, a holy, not a common and unclean seed.
“Continue therefore to live even with unbelieving relatives; for, if you are holy, the relation is so, the state is so, you may make a holy use even of an unbelieving relative, in conjugal duties, and your seed will be holy too.” What a comfort is this, where both relatives are believers!
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, but Christ's work on the cross only becomes effective to the believer.
I totally disagree. He actually PAID the sin debt for every one, which purchased eternal life for every one. And He gives this free gift to every one who believes in it. So, even for those who never believe, He holds the free gift of etertnal life for them. They just don't receive it.

If I was born in medieval Cambodia and never heard of Christ because the region was unreached, was I saved by default? Lack of knowledge is not a reasonable explanation, otherwise missionary work would not be imperative, as made clear in Scripture. The universal testimony of Scripture is that "all" are under sin, and the words "but" and "besides" don't appear next to "all."
OK, play the "missionary card". But it doesn't work. There are reports from some missionaries who have said that when they reached remote tribes/groups of people, they were told that the tribe or group had realized that there was a Creator and they wanted to know Him.

There are also reports recently from missionaries in the middle east who have been told by Muslims that they have had dreams of Jesus which motivated them to investigate further.

Bottom line: because God has revealed Himself through creation (Rom 1:19-20), no one has any excuse for not seeking Him (Acts 17:26-27).

I am totally convinced that those who seek Him will find Him. He has guaranteed that. 2 Chron 15:2,4,15, 33:12, Isa 55:6,7, Jer 29:12-14

The "age of accountability" is not a biblical doctrine, however, It has been invented by man, because the idea of little children being accountable for sin is repugnant to many.
I've already SAID that Adam's sin is imputed to ALL people. But your dismissal of "age of accountability" is simply amazing in light of Isa 7:15-16. Truly amazing. The phrase "knows enough to refuse the evil and choose the good" is significant, but obviously you are ignoring it. I asked your understanding of it and you haven't given one.

However, we should conform our minds to a biblical view, not conform the Bible to a man-centered view.
Which is what I've done. The Bible teaches that:
#1 Christ paid the sin debt for everyone, which purchased eternal life for everyone.
#2 until one reaches a time when they "know enough to refuse the evil and choose the good", they AREN'T accountable for having faith in Christ.

Your argument is that NO babies go to heaven. That is simply preposterous. King David KNEW he would see his infant child one day. 2 Sam 12:23

I was really hoping to avoid getting into "Christology," as I find it very divisive and confusing, but I can tell you the little I know that pertains to what you are quoting in Isaiah. It is my opinion, that Christ is God, that even as an infant though trapped in a human body He had all the knowledge that God has.
That would be an error. He "learned obedience" through suffering. Heb 5:8.

When His disciples asked Him when the end would come, He said that only the Father knows. He was speaking from His humanity, since obviously His Deity does know everything. The humanity of Jesus DID learn. And Isa 7:15-16 proves that, which you keep ignoring.

The human soul is not confined to the neurochemical limitations of a 2 month old brain, and being that Christ is divine, surely as a baby He was fully God made flesh. That's why he was able not each even as young as 12 years old.
Actually, He asked a lot of questions as well. But I've already refuted your view that His humanity was omniscient. So let's move on.

So, I don't think that Isa 7:15-16 really applies to Jesus himself, but specifically to the direct fulfillment in Isaiah 8:3 with the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. In fact, the prophecy continues on to tell about how the King of Assyria will bring destruction before that baby is of age.
Another amazing statement!! It is absolutely in reference to Jesus Himself.

What you are confusing is that in biblical prophecy, especially when it pertains to Jesus, the prophecy exists within a different prophecy that merely foreshadows the event accomplished in Christ.
With all respect, that is nonsense.

So, to apply Is 7:15-16 to Jesus specifically is like applying verse 2 of Hosea 11 to Jesus, which is obviously not the case.
Amazing!

Lastly, being that Jesus did not have a human father, by a divine mystery he was not imputed Adam's sin.
What is your point? Of course He didn't have a human father. If He did, He would have had Adam's imputed nature. That's WHY His conception did not involve a human father.

Christ's sacrifice only becomes effective upon belief, however.
No, it becomes receivable upon faith. Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26. It was effective WHEN He paid the sin debt.

Again, the terms "refuse the evil..." do not endorse a doctrine pertaining to a supposed age of accountability.
It does in spite of your opinion. Let's move on.

The verse you quote does not even discuss that. Please show me how it does or do not use it, because the age thing was a way of Isaiah telling the king of judea when events were going to unfold, not to explain how babies are saved by Christ.
I never said Isa 7:15-16 was about "how babies are saved". I pointed out that the verse teaches that there IS an age of "reason" or "accountability". Your denial changes nothing.

Again "no one is righteous, not one" includes babies, the passages in Genesis reflect all of mankind, God killed all of mankind in the flood, He did not spare babies. THis is the smoking gun, because the passages about the inclination of man's heart being continually evil obviously is the precursor to the flood as punishment. There is a necessary connection between the punishment and the deserved nature of it to all that are punished by it.
All of this is irrelevant, since I've already acknowledged that Adam's sin has been imputed to ALL people.

But, why do you continue to deny the FACTS?
#1 Christ died for every one, and purchased eternal life for every one.
#2 through faith in Christ, the free gift of eternal life is received.

It is these FACTS that prove that ALL babies go to heaven.

But, please tell me how many babies you think will go to heaven.

It would appear to me that they were not predestined, yet they are imputed sin.
Does that mean ALL babies go to hell because they can't believe?

Where does the Bible say that anyone is not accountable? It seems to me an invention of man, such an idea, I cannot find it in His revelation.
Those who have closed their eyes to obvious verses will not find the Bible teaching. But it is still there.

This happens all the time. People born in a promiscuous and materialistic society will discount the very real evils that taking part in these things spawns. But, I will ground us in a Biblical example:

The high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?” But the bystanders said, “Do you revile God’s high priest?” And Paul said, “I was not aware, brethren, that he was high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’” (Acts 23:2-5)

So, Paul committed wrong, even though until he was corrected, he didn't know that he did. When he was told and then became aware, he apologized. So, Paul was held accountable, even before he had the knowledge, by his own admission.
What is your point? Of course ALL people are sinners. He was held accountable but cannot be compared to babies who have no ability to comprehend abstract ideas, much less believe or reject them.

I'm waiting to know how many babies you think go to heaven.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Romans 5:12-14 specifically says that Adam's sin was imputed to all men and that all men died - "even those who did not disobey an explicit command of God as Adam did." (Vs 14 NLT). All means all - including infants. I have scripture that actually says what I believe.
And so do I. I have already acknowledged that Adam's sin was imputed to ALL people.

And I've also explained 2 FACTS that prove that ALL babies go to heaven.
#1 Christ died for every one and paid the sin debt for every one, and purchased the free gift of eternal life for every one. Those who believe get it.
#2 Until one reaches a time when they "know enough to refuse the evil and choose the good", they simply AREN'T accountable for faith.

How come the words "know enough" doesn't mean anything to some?
 
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AndOne

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And so do I. I have already acknowledged that Adam's sin was imputed to ALL people.

And I've also explained 2 FACTS that prove that ALL babies go to heaven.
#1 Christ died for every one and paid the sin debt for every one, and purchased the free gift of eternal life for every one. Those who believe get it.
#2 Until one reaches a time when they "know enough to refuse the evil and choose the good", they simply AREN'T accountable for faith.

How come the words "know enough" doesn't mean anything to some?

The poster did not acknowledge that Adam's sin was imputed to infants.

David's child represents one child who was saved - it doesn't mean all are automatically saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The poster did not acknowledge that Adam's sin was imputed to infants.
Which poster was that?

David's child represents one child who was saved - it doesn't mean all are automatically saved.
Why not? Is there any evidence from Scripture where any infants went to hell?

The difficulty for Rt is that it denies that Christ died for everyone one, thereby dening that every one's sins were paid for, and that eternal life was purchased for every one.

And since it cannot be shown that infants can comprehend abstract information, such as being sinners needing salvation, and the sacrifice of Christ, they cannot believe, and thus, cannot be held accountable for their paid for sins.

But those who do reach the time when they "know enough" to refuse the evil and choose the good, ARE accountable for rejecting the free gift of eternal life.

Now, how would one go about refuting what I've just presented? Can that be done?
 
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drstevej

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Since there is no direct answer to this in Scripture, I will leave it in His hands. The Bible does not answer all of the Why? and What? questions, it does reveal WHO.

Job was not told Why, He was reminded of Who.

When you can't understand
When you can't trace His hand...
Trust His heart.

I leave the question in God's IN BOX.
 
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