The Hours and Liturgy.

MJohn7

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Was Luke incorrect in creating an image of Christ? The first Christian icon was painted by St. Luke on the back of Mary's kitchen table. Christ was depicted as a child in Mary's arms.

I love the psalms too, they are my favorite!

God be gracious to me a sinner.

I cant say Luke did that but regardless we should understand its just a picture. But the icons of men bother me. The Psalms are lovely.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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The icons were there for those who could not read. They tell the story of Christianity.

The poor mans bible. Does it bother you because it appears to violate a commandment? That's what got me.

I'm sure you've seen this one replicated many times. (By St. Luke)

St_Mary_Painted_by_St_Luke.jpg


And you are correct, it's not an idol, it's an icon... a picture, often called windows into heaven.

God be gracious to me a sinner.
 
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MJohn7

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The icons were there for those who could not read. They tell the story of Christianity.

The poor mans bible. Does it bother you because it appears to violate a commandment? That's what got me.

I'm sure you've seen this one replicated many times. (By St. Luke)

St_Mary_Painted_by_St_Luke.jpg


And you are correct, it's not an idol, it's an icon... a picture, often called windows into heaven.

God be gracious to me a sinner.


Maybe its just how i think, but it bothers me because Paul said to glory not in men. Peter said to a man who fell at his feet in reverence: "Get up, im just a man". Im not saying EO worship men, im just saying that some folks might get the wrong idea and start to glorify men. But maybe im wrong, i dont know.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Maybe its just how i think, but it bothers me because Paul said to glory not in men. Peter said to a man who fell at his feet in reverence: "Get up, im just a man". Im not saying EO worship men, im just saying that some folks might get the wrong idea and start to glorify men. But maybe im wrong, i dont know.

You are correct I'm sure. (That someone could get the wrong idea.)

Notice that in Orthodox Christian Icon's it is Christ that is being presented, or even Christ through another person (the halo).

For instance Mary is almost never alone. She is almost always presenting Christ, with the exception of icons where he had not yet been born... like the annunciationm where Gabriel is greeting Mary the Theotokos (bearer of God).

Annunciation%20Full%20Size%20flyer.jpg


If an icon is not centered on Christ and HIS story, then it's not an icon but a painting.

God be gracious to me a sinner.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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But the icons of men bother me.

Like an icon of St. Andrew? (edit to replace with a smaller version)

1130andrew10%20flyer.jpg


God be gracious to me a sinner.
 
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MKJ

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I have a small challenge for you if you're up to it.

See if you can find an Orthodox Church near you that speaks English and try to attend a 'Vespers' (sundown, lighting of the lamps) service on a Saturday night. I'm not asking you to join, just attend a prayer service.

Another option for someone wanting to look at praying the hours, if they can't find an English Vespers liturgy, is to look for an Anglican parish that prays what we call the Daily Office.

Generally that means Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer. If the Evening Prayer service is sung, it's called Evensong, and is a very beautiful service. The structure is very similar - a lot of psalms and passages from scripture which are sung, tow lessons read, and a few other prayers.

Here is an example - its long so you will probably want to skip parts. The choir isn't great but you get the idea:

Choral Evensong with the Choir of Clare College, Cambridge - YouTube
 
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MKJ

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I suppose i can see how singing the psalms could be good worship, i don't know how much value it would have for anyone who's not seeking the Lord with their heart, but i could see the value in it. Im hesitant to agree that there is any certain order in which they need sung or how they should be sung but i can see value in it.

There is a good reason for having an order set out for the psalms, and the lessons. It is rather like setting out a plan for Bible reading in order to make sure that you read it all in a systematic way.

It is very easy to end up reading the same parts that you enjoy agains and again, or just lose focus and stop altogether. And you may have had the experience of going to a church where the pastor simply read from the parts that he wanted to use to preach from each week. So you are getting Pastor So-and-so's version of Scripture.

By having an outline, the services over the course of the year must cover many parts of Scripture, and the preacher will on Sunday be obliged to preach on what is going to be read, rather than what appeals to his views.

It also allows the whole congregation to read along together, even if they miss services.

Additionally, the readings are organized in part according to the liturgical year, so that at festivals such as Easter, or Ash Wednesday, we read what is appropriate for that part of the year. So over the course of each year we have a rhythm where we relive in a fashion the whole journey of the Church and the people of God, and bring it into relation to us, and we come to live in relation o it.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The first icon of Christ as an adult comes to us in 525ad.

God be gracious to me a sinner.
Other than the ones Christ Himself gave us...The cloths found by St. John in the empty tomb...Especially the one from which all other icons of Christ seem to have come from...(It's my avatar).
 
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ptomwebster

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Our "own" is the community of Christ ...Give it a shot. They're quite beautiful and an inspiring way to meet with truly devoted Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran believers. ....



No thanks!

 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Another option for someone wanting to look at praying the hours, if they can't find an English Vespers liturgy, is to look for an Anglican parish that prays what we call the Daily Office.

Generally that means Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer. If the Evening Prayer service is sung, it's called Evensong, and is a very beautiful service. The structure is very similar - a lot of psalms and passages from scripture which are sung, tow lessons read, and a few other prayers.

Here is an example - its long so you will probably want to skip parts. The choir isn't great but you get the idea:

Choral Evensong with the Choir of Clare College, Cambridge - YouTube

Wonderful suggestions and comments.

I had asked you once before about the Anaphora and you had said you could not see the consistency in early liturgy. Sounds like you've been studying liturgics.

God be gracious to me a sinner.
 
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MKJ

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Wonderful suggestions and comments.

I had asked you once before about the Anaphora and you had said you could not see the consistency in early liturgy. Sounds like you've been studying liturgics.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Hmm. I haven't been studying anything new in that line lately, and haven't changed my views on it recently. So I am not sure what you mean?

I think the liturgy has an internal logic and consistency - it is doing the same job since the beginning of the Church, it is the way it is for a reason, there are elements that you see from the beginning. I tend to be pretty conservative liturgically.

I don't think it is a good idea to tell people that it is has been the same throughout history, because that isn't true. What we see today developed over time, and at least theoretically, could continue to develop.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Hmm. I haven't been studying anything new in that line lately, and haven't changed my views on it recently. So I am not sure what you mean?

I think the liturgy has an internal logic and consistency - it is doing the same job since the beginning of the Church, it is the way it is for a reason, there are elements that you see from the beginning. I tend to be pretty conservative liturgically.

I don't think it is a good idea to tell people that it is has been the same throughout history, because that isn't true. What we see today developed over time, and at least theoretically, could continue to develop.

Yes, quite. My (congruent) approach is one of appreciation for the liturgy both despite, and because of, its diversity.

The liturgies in use today are not exactly the same as those practiced by the apostles, and yet they are theologically consistent in their approach to worship as a recapitulation of salvation history through the return to the scriptures, the celebration of God's triumph in the chants of the ordo, and the continued epiphany of Christ in the Eucharist. The liturgical diversity among early Christian cultures- Cappadocian, Asian, Antiochene, East Syriac, West Syriac, Roman, Cyrenaican, Alexandrian, Coptic- probably represents the very earliest developments of liturgy among the various missionaries sent out from the Jerusalem community and changes year to year in the liturgy of that community, but the diversity in form nevertheless testifies to a remarkable unity in content (and with it, theology). Whether one uses the Sanctus or the Trisagion, the western focus on the Verbum or the eastern focus on the Epiclesis, the tendency is toward a common drama expressed through chant, song, and text.

More basically, the diversity not only attests to a common content and theology, but to a common impulse: the perceived need to gather communities principally in the act of worship expressed through liturgical regularity. Whatever the diversity, that common worship, on a weekly, daily, and even trice (eventually sevenfold) daily basis formed the central spine of the community, and that worship was formed by a central spine of liturgical regularity. And, that liturgical regularity was a rich mixture of readings, common song, ordinary chant, Psalmody, and Eucharistic celebration. History attests no other reality for orthodox Christian communities. The commonality of liturgy across cultural and political barriers- with Armenian, East Syriac, and Egyptian liturgies independent of Byzantine-Constantinian standardization attesting to a very early development, as well as continued diversity also among Celtic, Ionan, Columban, Assyrian, and Coptic communities- makes clear that today's "liturgical" churches stand in clear continuity with the ancient global church of the first generations of Christians.
 
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