eretz Israel Genesis 15:18-21

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
greater-israel-map4.jpg


Genesis 15:18-21

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”

How could dispensationalists honestly believe 6 million Israeli Jews can conquer all of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and large pieces of land from Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia?

First of all, what they going to do with 100s of millions of Arabs? And their combined military might?

Second of all, Israel has more than enough land to support both Israeli Jews and Palestinians refugees, don't you think Israel would be spreading itself dangerously thin even if Israel insanely succeeded in conquering all these lands?????

92% of Israelis live in urban areas, 8% of Israelis live in rural areas\farmlands.

Don't any of you know what Israeli DEFENSE Force means?
 

Danoh

Newbie
Oct 11, 2011
3,064
310
✟40,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
greater-israel-map4.jpg


Genesis 15:18-21

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”

How could dispensationalists honestly believe 6 million Israeli Jews can conquer all of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and large pieces of land from Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia?

First of all, what they going to do with 100s of millions of Arabs? And their combined military might?

Second of all, Israel has more than enough land to support both Israeli Jews and Palestinians refugees, don't you think Israel would be spreading itself dangerously thin even if Israel insanely succeeded in conquering all these lands?????

92% of Israelis live in urban areas, 8% of Israelis live in rural areas\farmlands.

Don't any of you know what Israeli DEFENSE Force means?

Dispensationalists DO NOT believe that as you have posted it -that is your Replacement lens reading INTO our view.

Fact is that our view is the same God who SINGLE-HANDIDLY wiped out the greater of Egypt's massive military with HIS - GET THAT - HIS parting and unparting of the Red Sea - the SAME God who's ONE ANGEL ALONE OF HIS COUNTLESS HOST wiped out one hundred thousand soldiers - the SAME God whom the Lord declared could send TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS ANGELS to His defense - it is HE WHO WILL bring that PROMISE to its reality.

Still, thanks for making my point about the error of Scholasticism/Mysticism that Replacement Theology rests its entire basis on...
 
Upvote 0

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Whatever Danoh,

Here is another statistic for you dispensationalists 80% of Israelis live on 15% of Israel, while 20% of Israelis live on 85% of Israel.

God already fulfilled the Genesis 15 promise during the reigns of David and Solomon.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Danoh

Newbie
Oct 11, 2011
3,064
310
✟40,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
RandomPerson, we are obviously married to our respective views. And that's fine by me, as, in the end, we are not the other's servant.

That being the case, I'm curious to know what is your understanding of Romans 11:25-27. Not to debate you on it, as, again, we are each obviously married to our respective view. I ask, then, towards knowing what your view on that passage is. Thanks, in advance...
 
Upvote 0

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Thank you first of all, Danoh, for the respective response.

The Israel spoken of in verse 26 is the "Israel of God" see Galatians 6:15-16, Galatians 3:28-29, and Ephesians 2:10-22.

However, in the same chapter of Romans, Paul speaks of natural Israel in Romans 11:1,7,12,20,23.

But verse 26 is speaking of the "Israel of God" see also 1Peter 2:9 as all that language of the Mosaic Covenant is transferred to the Church, the Bride of Christ.

Remember natural Israel used to be God's Bride under the Old Covenant not so under the New Covenant, the Church is His Bride now.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
greater-israel-map4.jpg


Genesis 15:18-21

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite 20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim 21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.”

How could dispensationalists honestly believe 6 million Israeli Jews can conquer all of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and large pieces of land from Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia?

First of all, what they going to do with 100s of millions of Arabs? And their combined military might?

Second of all, Israel has more than enough land to support both Israeli Jews and Palestinians refugees, don't you think Israel would be spreading itself dangerously thin even if Israel insanely succeeded in conquering all these lands?????

92% of Israelis live in urban areas, 8% of Israelis live in rural areas\farmlands.

Don't any of you know what Israeli DEFENSE Force means?

Your first mistake is in assuming that the "river of Egypt" is the Nile.

Actually, the "river of Egypt" could well be translated the "wadi of Egypt." That is a small stream o the south side of Israel, the southern (not the western) border specified in Ezekiel 47:19.

Psalm 89 lists the nations that will unite to attack Israel:

"For they have consulted together with one consent; They form a confederacy against You: The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot. Selah" (Psalm 83:5-8)

But Zechariah 14:3 says, “Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.” When the Lord keeps this promise, He says “Moreover the multitude of your foes Shall be like fine dust, And the multitude of the terrible ones Like chaff that passes away; Yes, it shall be in an instant, suddenly.” (Isaiah 29:5) Again, Isaiah 17:12-13 says, “Woe to the multitude of many people Who make a noise like the roar of the seas, And to the rushing of nations That make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.” Edom is particularly noticed in this regard, for concerning him, (Jeremiah 49:17) the Lord says, “Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain of the Jordan Against the dwelling place of the strong; But I will suddenly make him run away from her. And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her? For who is like Me? Who will arraign Me? And who is that shepherd Who will withstand Me?” (verse 19)

Joel 3:1-2 says these nations will not come against Jerusalem of their own accord. They will be brought there by the Lord. But this passage also tells us where He will force them as they flee. “For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land.” He will “enter into judgment with them” in “the Valley of Jehoshaphat.”


This "valley of Jehoshaphat" has been identified as the Biblical Valley of Berachah," which is about ten miles south of Jerusalem.

This is when the deliverance of Judah begins. In Joel 2:20 the Lord declares “But I will remove far from you the northern army, And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, With his face toward theastern sea And his back toward the western sea; His stench will come up, And his foul odor will rise, Because he has done monstrous things.” The valley we have been discussing runs through “a barren and desolate land.” An army driven away from Jerusalem and fleeing down this valley would have its “face toward the eastern sea” and its “back toward the western sea.” Thus we see that this valley fits both the name “the Valley of Jehoshaphat,” and also the description of where the Lord will deal with “the northern army.”

These are not things that might happen, but things that will most certainly happen. For “The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, ‘Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand: That I will break the Assyrian in My land, And on My mountains tread him underfoot. Then his yoke shall be removed from them, And his burden removed from their shoulders. This is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth, And this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the LORD of hosts has purposed, And who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, And who will turn it back?’” (Isaiah 14:24-27)

But it is not only “the northern army” that is destroyed in this valley. Though men make much more of Armageddon, and that will indeed be a great battle, the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” is “the valley of decision.”

“Proclaim this among the nations: ‘Prepare for war! Wake up the mighty men, Let all the men of war draw near, Let them come up. Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, “I am strong.”’ Assemble and come, all you nations, And gather together all around. Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD. ‘Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow; For their wickedness is great.’ Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.” (Joel 3:9-14)

We should notice that this is not the great judgment of the nations described in Matthew 25:31-46. At that judgment there will be reward as well as punishment. Here, there is no blessing, but only unsparing destruction of the enemies of God’s chosen people.

In the mad flight of the nations, Edom appears to be pushed by the armies behind them, for we read in Obadiah 7 that “All the men in your confederacy Shall force you to the border; The men at peace with you Shall deceive you and prevail against you. Those who eat your bread shall lay a trap for you. No one is aware of it.” So the map on page 297 shows Edom continuing through the Valley of Jehoshaphat, where the rest of the armies will be destroyed, down the Ascent of Ziz, and along the shore of the Dead sea toward their homeland. Edom reaches home, but not safety, for Jeremiah 49:8 says, “Flee, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan! For I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, The time that I will punish him.”

Edom's doom is announced by both Isaiah and Jeremiah, saying:

“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:5-10)

“Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Edom, And His purposes that He has proposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He shall make their dwelling places desolate with them. The earth shakes at the noise of their fall; At the cry its noise is heard at the Red Sea. Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, And spread His wings over Bozrah; The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.” (Jeremiah 49:20-22)

This is followed by the great battle at Amageddon, of which we read:

“And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.” (Revelation 19:19-21)

After all this, there is not much left for Israel to do.
 
Upvote 0

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Your first mistake is in assuming that the "river of Egypt" is the Nile.

Actually, the "river of Egypt" could well be translated the "wadi of Egypt." That is a small stream o the south side of Israel, the southern (not the western) border specified in Ezekiel 47:19.

Psalm 89 lists the nations that will unite to attack Israel:

"For they have consulted together with one consent; They form a confederacy against You: The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot. Selah" (Psalm 83:5-8)

All the Psalmist is doing is imploring for Lord's to confound the traditional enemies of the kings of Israel, these Incidences are scattered throughout the Old Testament:

Esther 3:6
2 Chron. 20:1,10,22
1 Chron. 5:10,18-21
1 Sam. Chapter 15
1 Sam. 4:1
1 Sam. 29:1
2 Kings 15:19,29 17:6
1 Chron. 5:25-26
 
Upvote 0

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Dispensationalism and Zechariah 14

BY WAYNE JACKSON

Dispensationalists—those enamored with the notion that Christ will return to the earth to establish a political kingdom over which he will reign for one thousand years—rely heavily upon Zechariah, chapter fourteen, as an important Old Testament element of the premillennial scheme.

Dispensational writer Hobert E. Freeman characterizes this chapter as a description of “the destruction of Israel’s enemies, salvation of Jerusalem and the millennial reign of the Messiah over all the world from Zion.” He further states:

The prophecy of Zechariah is to the Old Testament what the book of Revelation is to the New. It is the Apocalypse of the Old Testament which portrays God’s future dealings with His chosen people Israel . . . . The book of Zechariah, especially chapter 14, stands as a continual corrective to all those theories which deny the literal, future restoration of Israel, after a period of chastening, in her own land, over whom the Messiah will reign in Zion (1968, 334-335).

Dramatically, advocates of dispensational theology allege that Zechariah 14:1-3 contains a description of the approaching “battle of Armageddon,” which supposedly will be consummated by the descent of Christ “upon the mount of Olives” (v. 4) to overthrow his enemies and to commence his millennial reign.

The truth of the matter is, Zechariah 14 has no reference whatever to a millennial reign of Christ upon the earth. The Bible indisputably teaches that the second coming of the Lord will terminate all earthly affairs (2 Peter 3:4, 10).

A Look at the Text

The prophet Zechariah foretells a coming “day of Jehovah” when the nations will be gathered against “Jerusalem” for a great battle. The horrors of the conflict are interrupted when the Lord intervenes and defends the city against the nations. The mount of Olives east of Jerusalem is rent asunder, providing a passageway of escape for the faithful. The enemies of God are punished with fearful plagues and henceforth Jerusalem dwells in safety, and from year to year the people worship Jehovah who is “King over the whole earth.”

Concerning this exciting chapter, let us note the following:

(1) How would one determine that this prophecy has to do with a “millennial reign” of Christ upon the earth? Did Jesus, during his earthly ministry, so interpret it? Did any inspired New Testament writer quote from Zechariah 14, giving it a dispensational interpretation? The answer is, “No.” There is no evidence at all that would point this prophecy in the direction of premillennialism.

Actually, New Testament writers repeatedly stress that the prophetic thrust of the Old Testament was concerning the salvation of grace (1 Peter 1:10-11) which burst into bloom with the dawning of the gospel dispensation. Peter affirmed that “all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days” (Acts 3:24). The “these days” were the days of the Christian age. The dispensational view of Zechariah 14 is arbitrary and without evidential proof.

(2) A fundamental problem with premillennial theology is its inability to discern the difference between the literal and figurative elements of the Scriptures. Much of the prophecy of Old Testament literature is couched in figurative jargon, and those who do not recognize this principle are doomed to failure in their interpretation of the text. In his classic book, Biblical Hermeneutics, Professor Milton Terry wrote: “A thorough interpretation of the prophetic portions of the holy Scripture is largely dependent upon a mastery of the principles and laws of figurative language, and of types and symbols” (1890, 313).

The Folly of Literalizing Zechariah 14

A careful study of Zechariah 14 will reveal that those who attempt to literalize the message of this chapter, as the premillennialists do, are pursuing a disastrous course of interpretation.

Consider the following:

(1) If this chapter refers to the literal return of Christ (i.e., the second coming) upon the mount of Olives, exactly who is it that will make that escape flight to the east when the mountain is cleft? It cannot be the wicked, for the Bible plainly teaches that they will be destroyed when the Lord returns (Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). Moreover, it cannot be the righteous, for they will be “caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Who else, pray tell, is left?

(2) Verse eight speaks of living waters going forth from Jerusalem in summer and in winter. Since summer and winter will occur only as long as the earth remains (Genesis 8:22), and as the earth will not remain beyond the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:4, 10), it is obvious that the events of this verse cannot transpire after the literal return of Jesus—which supposedly is alluded to in verse four.

(3) Verse twelve tells of Jehovah smiting his enemies and their “flesh” being consumed. Again, this cannot refer to a period after the literal return of Christ; the coming of the Lord will signal “the end,” at which point the dead will be raised, and the living—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye—will be changed from flesh to a new, spiritual essence. We will pass from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality (1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 51-53).

Consequences Resulting from the Dispensational View of Zechariah 14

The dispensational view of Zechariah 14 strikes at the very heart of the nature of Christ’s atoning work at the cross.

Verses sixteen and twenty-one speak of those who go up to observe the feast of tabernacles, and who offer sacrifices. Again, dispensationalists literalize the language, asserting that Judaism, with all its carnality (cf. Hebrews 9:10) and animal blood, will be revived in the “millennial” age. A thoughtful writer focuses upon the weaknesses of this view:
Are these interpreters ready to accept the restoration of the Old Testament feast with its offering of animal sacrifices? During the feast of tabernacles, which began on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, daily offerings of animals were made by fire, 199 animals of all kinds were offered, “besides the continual burn-offering, and the meal offerings thereof, and the drink offerings thereof” (Num. 29:12-38). Among these daily offerings was “one he-goat for a sin-offering.” Jesus is our sin-offering, and if we go back to offering he-goats for sin-offerings we must reject Jesus as a sufficient offering for our sins (Lanier 1965, 633).

The Old Testament law, with its rivers of animal blood, was abolished at the cross (Ephesians 2:15-16), hence has been “taken” (erken—in the perfect tense, denoting the permanent abolition of the law of Moses) away for ever (Colossians 2:14).

Truly, dispensationalism is a Judaistic, materialistic, and infidelic system. (For more information on the implications associated with dispensational premillennialism, see our article, Examining Premillennialism.)

Conclusion

Whatever else the meaning of Zechariah 14 may be, it cannot be harmonized with premillennial theology. Two common views of this remarkable chapter, entertained by non-millennial scholars, are as follows:

(1) Some hold it to be a symbolic prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, together with a spread of the gospel throughout the Christian age thereafter (cf. Collins 1954, 761-763; Wallace 1960, 246-248).

(2) The better view, in this writer’s judgment, suggests that the language is a figurative depiction of the history of spiritual “Jerusalem” (the church), from the time of its commencement on the day of Pentecost throughout the Christian age (see Hengstenberg n.d., 1155-1182; Laetsch 1956, 493-506). Woudstra had a nice summary of the matter:
From the mixed character of the imagery employed, referring now to cataclysmic upheavals, now to regular pilgrimages to Jerusalem, it seems to this writer that no such literal interpretation of the passages is intended. The prophecy has in view various aspects of the gospel age with particular emphasis on its conclusion (1960, 377-378).

The millennialist view of Zechariah 14 is to be rejected summarily.

Sources/Footnotes
Collins, G. N. M. 1954. The New Bible Commentary. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Freeman, Hobart. 1968. An Introduction to the Old Testament Prophets. Chicago, IL: Moody Press.
Hengstenberg, E. W. n.d. Christology of the Old Testament. Vol. 2. Mac Dill, FL: MacDonald Publishing Co.
Laetsch, Theo. 1956. The Minor Prophets. St. Louis, MO: Concordia.
Lanier, Roy H., Sr. 1965. Firm Foundation, October 5.
Terry, Milton. 1890. Biblical Hermeneutics. New York, NY: Eaton & Mains.
Wallace, Foy E., Jr. 1960. God’s Prophetic Word. Oklahoma City, OK: F E W, Jr. Publications.
Woudstra, Marten. 1960. The Biblical Expositor. Vol. 2. Carl F. H. Henry, ed. Philadelphia, PA: A. J. Holman Co.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/120-dispensationalism-and-zechariah-14
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Danoh

Newbie
Oct 11, 2011
3,064
310
✟40,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thank you first of all, Danoh, for the respective response.

The Israel spoken of in verse 26 is the "Israel of God" see Galatians 6:15-16, Galatians 3:28-29, and Ephesians 2:10-22.

However, in the same chapter of Romans, Paul speaks of natural Israel in Romans 11:1,7,12,20,23.

But verse 26 is speaking of the "Israel of God" see also 1Peter 2:9 as all that language of the Mosaic Covenant is transferred to the Church, the Bride of Christ.

Remember natural Israel used to be God's Bride under the Old Covenant not so under the New Covenant, the Church is His Bride now.

Again, just to understand your view, so, in your understanding, verse 26's "And so all Israel shall be saved" is both, a reference to the result of verse 25's "fulness be come in" and to the Body ot Christ, as God is through with Israel. Thus, the phrase "for out of Zion" is not a reference to His return to restore the nation of Israel...

That is not my understanding of the passage, but is that about right as to what your view is on all that?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Absolutely!

Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:20-21 in Romans 11:26-27 and look at what that says:

And a redeemer will come to Zion, And those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the Lord.

The Deliverer/Redeemer is Jesus and the Salvation he brought with his death. This is all about context which IMO dispensationalists have it incorrect.

This is the New Covenant not the Mosaic Covenant at all.
 
Upvote 0

Danoh

Newbie
Oct 11, 2011
3,064
310
✟40,528.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Absolutely!

Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:20-21 in Romans 11:26-27 and look at what that says:

And a redeemer will come to Zion, And those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the Lord.

The Deliverer/Redeemer is Jesus and the Salvation he brought with his death. This is all about context which IMO dispensationalists have it incorrect.

This is the New Covenant not the Mosaic Covenant at all.

So, in your understanding, we Dispensationalists have the context incorrect.

What do you see as said context that we have as incorrect?

Also, how did you arrive at determining that your context was/is the "correct" one?

That's two questions, by the way :)
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
All the Psalmist is doing is imploring for Lord's to confound the traditional enemies of the kings of Israel, these Incidences are scattered throughout the Old Testament:

Esther 3:6
2 Chron. 20:1,10,22
1 Chron. 5:10,18-21
1 Sam. Chapter 15
1 Sam. 4:1
1 Sam. 29:1
2 Kings 15:19,29 17:6
1 Chron. 5:25-26

It is easy to dismiss a single passage if you have zero knowledge of how the prophetic scriptures fit together. There has never been a time in history when this particular group of nations has agreed together to make a confederacy to attack Israel. But there are explicitly stated prophetic passages that plainly speak of each of these nations coming against Israel in the last days.

But even if you were correct in dismissing this passage, you have not even begun to address the rest of the scriptures I posted.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
So, in your understanding, we Dispensationalists have the context incorrect.

What do you see as said context that we have as incorrect?

Also, how did you arrive at determining that your context was/is the "correct" one?

That's two questions, by the way :)

Because the whole chapter of Romans 11 is speaking about the remnant in verses 2 through 11. The Kingdom of God is so much bigger than a nation of Israel. The Kingdom of God and the Israel of God are one and the same indivisible. The Israel of God is a kingdom that includes both Gentiles and Jews. This Israel of God, circumcision and uncircumcision is not anything anymore. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile anymore, there is no partiality between Jew and Gentile anymore. All of Israel (Israel of God) is saved under the New Covenant.
 
Upvote 0

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
It is easy to dismiss a single passage if you have zero knowledge of how the prophetic scriptures fit together. There has nevewhole n a time in history when this particular group of nations has agreed together to make a confederacy to attack Israel. But there are explicitly stated prophetic passages that plainly speak of each of these nations coming against Israel in the last days.

But even if you were correct in dismissing this passage, you have not even begun to address the rest of the scriptures I posted.

These are Old Testament passages dealing with ancient nations that don't even EXIST anymore. Dispensationalism is pessimistic and apocalyptic and wants to lead the world into war rather than being peacemakers and seeking the justice that is worthy of repentance. John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostles preached justice.

Christ is going to return one day and that will be the end of this world, God does not dwell in any temple but in each and everyone of His believers.

My whole eschatology lies between Matthew and Jude. The rest I am not scholarly enough to determine. That is all we Christians need to know about future events.

"The Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will."[\i] - Jesus (Matthew 24:44)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The following article is so filled with systematic error that it is hard to know where to start.

Dispensationalism and Zechariah 14

BY WAYNE JACKSON

Dispensationalists—those enamored with the notion that Christ will return to the earth to establish a political kingdom over which he will reign for one thousand years—rely heavily upon Zechariah, chapter fourteen, as an important Old Testament element of the premillennial scheme.

In the first place, the concept of a future millennium centered in Israel is not a “dispensationalist” concept. This was clearly taught every Christian commentary on prophecy that has come down to us from before the first few centuries of the church. Evan as late as the fourth century, Jerome called fufutism "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

And in the second place, we do not “years—rely heavily upon Zechariah, chapter fourteen, as an important Old Testament element of the premillennial scheme.” Zecharial 14 indeed contains some interesting and important details of end time prophecy. But the actual facts of the millennium are far more clearly established in numerous other scriptures.

Dispensational writer Hobert E. Freeman characterizes this chapter as a description of “the destruction of Israel’s enemies, salvation of Jerusalem and the millennial reign of the Messiah over all the world from Zion.” He further states:

The prophecy of Zechariah is to the Old Testament what the book of Revelation is to the New. It is the Apocalypse of the Old Testament which portrays God’s future dealings with His chosen people Israel . . . . The book of Zechariah, especially chapter 14, stands as a continual corrective to all those theories which deny the literal, future restoration of Israel, after a period of chastening, in her own land, over whom the Messiah will reign in Zion (1968, 334-335).

Dramatically, advocates of dispensational theology allege that Zechariah 14:1-3 contains a description of the approaching “battle of Armageddon,” which supposedly will be consummated by the descent of Christ “upon the mount of Olives” (v. 4) to overthrow his enemies and to commence his millennial reign.
I suppose, if you look hard enough, you might find a dispensationalist ignorant enough to make such a claim. But these verses are not about Armageddon at all. They are about the great attack of “the Assyrian,” who is also “the king of the north,” who attacks Israel in the middle of the seventieth week, with the confederation named in Psalm 83.

The truth of the matter is, Zechariah 14 has no reference whatever to a millennial reign of Christ upon the earth. The Bible indisputably teaches that the second coming of the Lord will terminate all earthly affairs (2 Peter 3:4, 10).
The Bible indisputably teaches the very opposite. Wayne Jackson’s error here is in assuming, without a shred of scriptural evidence, that 2 Peter 3:10 is speaks of the second coming of Christ.

A Look at the Text

The prophet Zechariah foretells a coming “day of Jehovah” when the nations will be gathered against “Jerusalem” for a great battle. The horrors of the conflict are interrupted when the Lord intervenes and defends the city against the nations. The mount of Olives east of Jerusalem is rent asunder, providing a passageway of escape for the faithful. The enemies of God are punished with fearful plagues and henceforth Jerusalem dwells in safety, and from year to year the people worship Jehovah who is “King over the whole earth.”

Concerning this exciting chapter, let us note the following:

(1) How would one determine that this prophecy has to do with a “millennial reign” of Christ upon the earth? Did Jesus, during his earthly ministry, so interpret it? Did any inspired New Testament writer quote from Zechariah 14, giving it a dispensational interpretation? The answer is, “No.” There is no evidence at all that would point this prophecy in the direction of premillennialism.
This is a red herring argument, making noise that sounds significant, when what is actually meaningless. There are many things stated in various parts of the Bible that are not stated in other parts of the Bible. The fact that God did not repeat certain things in the way certain men demand to see it repeated has zero bearing on whether or not God said it. And if God said that such-and-such would happen, then such-and-such either has already happened, or will happen in the future. To deny this is to make God a liar.

Actually, New Testament writers repeatedly stress that the prophetic thrust of the Old Testament was concerning the salvation of grace (1 Peter 1:10-11) which burst into bloom with the dawning of the gospel dispensation.
This is not what this passage says. It is an interpretation of the meaning of this passage.

Peter affirmed that “all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days” (Acts 3:24). The “these days” were the days of the Christian age. The dispensational view of Zechariah 14 is arbitrary and without evidential proof.
The fact that all the prophets spoke of these days does not even imply that the prophets did not speak of any other days. This is simply reading something into the text that is not there.

(2) A fundamental problem with premillennial theology is its inability to discern the difference between the literal and figurative elements of the Scriptures. Much of the prophecy of Old Testament literature is couched in figurative jargon, and those who do not recognize this principle are doomed to failure in their interpretation of the text. In his classic book, Biblical Hermeneutics, Professor Milton Terry wrote: “A thorough interpretation of the prophetic portions of the holy Scripture is largely dependent upon a mastery of the principles and laws of figurative language, and of types and symbols” (1890, 313).
The, not a, fundamental problem of denying all these prophecies will actually take place, exactly as described, is that it makes God a liar. And that problem is fundamental, not trivial. God indeed often spoke figuratively. But He only spoke truthfully. Even though the two sons of Abraham were an allegory, Abraham indeed had these two sons, and the allegorical portions of the story were all actual events that really happened.

The Folly of Literalizing Zechariah 14

A careful study of Zechariah 14 will reveal that those who attempt to literalize the message of this chapter, as the premillennialists do, are pursuing a disastrous course of interpretation.

Consider the following:

(1) If this chapter refers to the literal return of Christ (i.e., the second coming) upon the mount of Olives, exactly who is it that will make that escape flight to the east when the mountain is cleft? It cannot be the wicked, for the Bible plainly teaches that they will be destroyed when the Lord returns (Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). Moreover, it cannot be the righteous, for they will be “caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Who else, pray tell, is left?
Here, Wayne Jackson is only displaying his total ignorance of the prophetic word. The rghteus will indeed be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air,” at the time of the rapture. But this is not speaking of the time of the rapture. The “you” spoken of here is Israel, the nation that was being addressed here. The wicked will indeed be destroyed when the Lord comes. But that will not be a sudden event. The scriptures clearly describe a series of five battles of campaigns that will take place after the Lord comes in power and glory. This event is simplt the prelude to the first of these five battles.


(2) Verse eight speaks of living waters going forth from Jerusalem in summer and in winter. Since summer and winter will occur only as long as the earth remains (Genesis 8:22), and as the earth will not remain beyond the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:4, 10), it is obvious that the events of this verse cannot transpire after the literal return of Jesus—which supposedly is alluded to in verse four.
I have already pointed out that this is pure speculation on Wayne Jackson’s part. 2 Peter 4:10 is not the time “when Christ returns,” As Wayne puts it. The scriptures very clearly describe many details, including these, that very clearly show that the earth will indeed remain for a long time after Christ comes in power and glory.

(3) Verse twelve tells of Jehovah smiting his enemies and their “flesh” being consumed. Again, this cannot refer to a period after the literal return of Christ; the coming of the Lord will signal “the end,” at which point the dead will be raised, and the living—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye—will be changed from flesh to a new, spiritual essence. We will pass from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality (1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 51-53).
This is simply not taught anywhere in all of scripture. 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 51-53 are speaking of the righteous, not of the wicked. Wayns is assumong that 1 Corinthians 15:24 comes immediately after verse 23, but he is ignoring the very text he is citing. For it explicitly says the end comes “when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.”
(1 Corinthians 15:24-25) This is one of those New Testament references to the millennium that Wayne imagines are not there.

Consequences Resulting from the Dispensational View of Zechariah 14

The dispensational view of Zechariah 14 strikes at the very heart of the nature of Christ’s atoning work at the cross.

Verses sixteen and twenty-one speak of those who go up to observe the feast of tabernacles, and who offer sacrifices. Again, dispensationalists literalize the language, asserting that Judaism, with all its carnality (cf. Hebrews 9:10) and animal blood, will be revived in the “millennial” age. A thoughtful writer focuses upon the weaknesses of this view:
Are these interpreters ready to accept the restoration of the Old Testament feast with its offering of animal sacrifices? During the feast of tabernacles, which began on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, daily offerings of animals were made by fire, 199 animals of all kinds were offered, “besides the continual burn-offering, and the meal offerings thereof, and the drink offerings thereof” (Num. 29:12-38). Among these daily offerings was “one he-goat for a sin-offering.” Jesus is our sin-offering, and if we go back to offering he-goats for sin-offerings we must reject Jesus as a sufficient offering for our sins (Lanier 1965, 633).

The Old Testament law, with its rivers of animal blood, was abolished at the cross (Ephesians 2:15-16), hence has been “taken” (erken—in the perfect tense, denoting the permanent abolition of the law of Moses) away for ever (Colossians 2:14).

Truly, dispensationalism is a Judaistic, materialistic, and infidelic system. (For more information on the implications associated with dispensational premillennialism, see our article, Examining Premillennialism.)
Even in Old Testament times, the sacrifices “could never take away sins.” Both this passage and the last third of Ezekiel very explicitly say that the practice of offering sacrifices will be resumed. But two things jump out of the sacrifices in Ezekiel. The first of these is that all the sacrifices that are mentioned were those that Israel had originally been commanded to offer “for ever.” And the second is that there are distinct differences between the sacrifices detailed there and those commanded under the law of Moses. So this is not simply a revival of the Mosaic law, but a new way of worship, soecufued for a new age which will come only after the church has been removed from this earth.

Conclusion

Whatever else the meaning of Zechariah 14 may be, it cannot be harmonized with premillennial theology.
I find this statement confusing. How can he claim it is the basis of our doctrine, and then claim it cannot be harmonized with our doctrine?

Two common views of this remarkable chapter, entertained by non-millennial scholars, are as follows:

(1) Some hold it to be a symbolic prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, together with a spread of the gospel throughout the Christian age thereafter (cf. Collins 1954, 761-763; Wallace 1960, 246-248).

(2) The better view, in this writer’s judgment, suggests that the language is a figurative depiction of the history of spiritual “Jerusalem” (the church), from the time of its commencement on the day of Pentecost throughout the Christian age (see Hengstenberg n.d., 1155-1182; Laetsch 1956, 493-506). Woudstra had a nice summary of the matter:
From the mixed character of the imagery employed, referring now to cataclysmic upheavals, now to regular pilgrimages to Jerusalem, it seems to this writer that no such literal interpretation of the passages is intended. The prophecy has in view various aspects of the gospel age with particular emphasis on its conclusion (1960, 377-378).

The millennialist view of Zechariah 14 is to be rejected summarily.
To rationally claim that a passage of scripture symbolizes something, it is necessary to show what the symbols represent, and thus how they represent these things. This is something that amillennialists simply cannot do. Why can the not do it? Because the symbolism tey claim is there is simply not there at all. It is purely magined as an excuse for refusing to believe what God has said He is going to do.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
These are Old Testament passages dealing with ancient nations that don't even EXIST anymore.

This is simply incorrect. They are all still there. Just because you do not know how to identify them is no excuse to claim thay have eased to exist.

Dispensationalism is pessimistic and apocalyptic and wants to lead the world into war rather than being peacemakers and seeking the justice that is worthy of repentance. John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostles preached justice.

This is a false accusation and a violation of forum rules.

Christ is going to return one day and that will be the end of this world,

That is false doctrine.

God does not dwell in any temple but in each and everyone of His believers.

My whole eschatology lies between Matthew and Jude. The rest I am not scholarly enough to determine. That is all we Christians need to know about future events.

"The Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will."[\i] - Jesus (Matthew 24:44)

That has no bearing on the subject.
 
Upvote 0

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
This is simply incorrect. They are all still there. Just because you do not know how to identify them is no excuse to claim thay have eased to exist.
[\quote]

Oh I know how to identify them but that their Biblical carnations ceased a long long time ago. For hundreds of years it was all the Ottoman Empire.


This is a false accusation and a violation of forum rules.[\quote]

There is no false accusation in my opinion. You believe in the destruction of nations. And the death of millions. Christ is only coming back once there is not going to be a rapture. And if there were a rapture I'd imagine those left behind would piece it together. It would be the top news story for decades nonetheless.




That is false doctrine.[\quote]

Tune out all of your dark apocalyptic passages in the Old Testament and just listen to Jesus and Epistle writers and you will come to understand there is nothing false about this doctrine. Jesus comes back, end of this age. New Earth and New Jerusalem that Abraham and all other Old.Testament men and women of faith longed for and waited for but never received.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Oh I know how to identify them but that their Biblical carnations ceased a long long time ago. For hundreds of years it was all the Ottoman Empire.

The people groups are still there. Whether or not they continue to exist as nations is immaterial.


There is no false accusation in my opinion. You believe in the destruction of nations. And the death of millions.
We believe that God is going to destroy these nations, because He explicitly said He would do it. This is actually far less destruction than your belief that God is going to destroy the entire earth at the same time that we believe that He will only destroy some nations.


Christ is only coming back once there is not going to be a rapture. And if there were a rapture I'd imagine those left behind would piece it together. It would be the top news story for decades nonetheless.
That is a claim that cannot be defended by a single part of a verse in the entire Bible.

I have already demonstrated the error of this claim in a multiple part OP in this CF thread:
A Scriptural Precedent http://www.christianforums.com/t7610681-9/


[/quote]Tune out all of your dark apocalyptic passages in the Old Testament and just listen to Jesus and Epistle writers and you will come to understand there is nothing false about this doctrine. Jesus comes back, end of this age. New Earth and New Jerusalem that Abraham and all other Old.Testament men and women of faith longed for and waited for but never received.[/quote]

So I should just ignore everything God said about all this??

That attitude is why I called this false doctrine, and not just error.

No thanks. I will continue believe what God said, all of it, not just part of it.

You are ascribing greater authority to your interpretation of the meanings of a few passages of scripture that to the actual statements of a great many other scriptures.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

random person

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20
Dec 10, 2013
3,646
262
Riverside California
✟14,087.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
No I place my eschatological solely on the teachings of Jesus and the writers of the epistles.

Those Old Testament prophecies are metaphoric and symbolic in nature, and IMO preterist. Israel had not existed for nearly three thousand years as a self ruling independent nation.

You believe you have the whole future mapped out with these Old Testament verses. That Israel is going to destroy its enemies even though Biblical Israel was punished by its enemies for national apostasy and social injustice.

God has a new bride to spread his love across the globe. And its citizens include both Gentiles and Jews.

You have a lot of death and destruction to look forward to, while all I have to look forward to is the coming of Jesus.

(Imagine the looting, the disasters, and deaths a rapture is going to entail. Oh, and the lifeblood of Israel will be gone in a snap, no more Christian aid and their wealthy tourist industry *kaput*)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0