Eternal Torment

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concretecamper

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Possibly, though I do believe we will reap what we sow, and that the measure we use will be measured back to us, since God is just.

Judas is called "son of perdition," roughly meaning "son of destruction." I do not see "son of eternal torment" mentioned here.

I agree we reap what we sow.

I read this explanation somewhere...sometime....but it rung true to me.....Hell is mercy from God, because it would be far more torment for some to be in the presence of the Almightly than be in Hell. So, God is all mercy.
 
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Rhamiel

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when we sin, we offend God, who is infinitely good
that is why Jesus had to die for our sins
only a perfect sacrifice could pay for our sins

sinning against an infinite being calls for infinite punishment
since Jesus is of infinite goodness His death paid for it, but without Christ we will have to pay for this offence forever
 
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hedrick

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when we sin, we offend God, who is infinitely good
that is why Jesus had to die for our sins
only a perfect sacrifice could pay for our sins

sinning against an infinite being calls for infinite punishment
since Jesus is of infinite goodness His death paid for it, but without Christ we will have to pay for this offence forever

Only in medieval governmental theory, where the seriousness of an action depends upon the prestige of the person you do it to.
 
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ptomwebster

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If you have a point to make I suggest you go ahead and make it.



Did you look up the word "consume?" If something is “consumed by fire” what is left?

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

 
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hedrick

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So you do not believe God is immutable?

What does that have to do with the concept that offending God is worth an infinite punishment? That follows from a concept of "face" and honor that Jesus seems quite opposed to. He's our judge, and he sees himself as a humble servant.

As to immutability: I believe that God's character doesn't change, and we can rely on him. I.e. I believe in what the Bible says about him. I'm not so sure that I believe in philosophers' concept of immutability. But I don't see how that is connected to this.
 
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concretecamper

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What does that have to do with the concept that offending God is worth an infinite punishment? That follows from a concept of "face" and honor that Jesus seems quite opposed to. He's our judge, and he sees himself as a humble servant.

As to immutability: I believe that God's character doesn't change, and we can rely on him. I.e. I believe in what the Bible says about him. I'm not so sure that I believe in philosophers' concept of immutability. But I don't see how that is connected to this.

You responded to a quote that ended "but without Christ we will have to pay for this offence forever" which is consistent with the gospel. Your response referenced midieval times in a sense that it was different then?
 
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hedrick

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You responded to a quote that ended "but without Christ we will have to pay for this offence forever" which is consistent with the gospel. Your response referenced midieval times in a sense that it was different then?

I responded to the following:

when we sin, we offend God, who is infinitely good
that is why Jesus had to die for our sins
only a perfect sacrifice could pay for our sins

sinning against an infinite being calls for infinite punishment
since Jesus is of infinite goodness His death paid for it, but without Christ we will have to pay for this offense forever

The underlying concept is that offenses against God are infinite because he is infinite. This idea developed during the medieval period, when Anselm reinterpreted Jesus' substitution as satisfying a debt of honor to God. Scholars commonly see this as the result of the medieval concept of justice, where the same offense is different depending upon whether it's against a serf, a lord, or the King. The concept is that the severity of the offense depends upon the dignity of the person offended. I believe this is contrary to Jesus' picture of God. There are other approaches to the atonement. My preference is a combination of Rom 6 and Jesus' statement in the words of institution that his death is a covenant sacrifice to establish the new covenant.

Of course eternal punishment isn't necessarily tied to one's theory of the atonement. People have believed in eternal punishment without necessarily holding the Anselmian theory of the atonement. Thus my objection to your argument isn't fatal to the idea of eternal suffering. The strongest argument for me is Biblical. The usual moral justification is that the person chooses alienation from God. See e.g. the second posting in this thread, http://www.christianforums.com/t7795908/#post64770392. I don't see any way to avoid eternal punishment without a seriously non-literal interpretation of Matthew. I'm prepared to do that. Few others in CF are.
 
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supersoldier71

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Ah, but you misunderstand God. God is love and love fulfills the law. Since God is in harmony with His law then God cannot murder or kill.



Wow....That amazes me. IF God sins, it's okay, but if I sin, well it's evil.

John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. (why?)

3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

God cannot sin. God CAN and does kill.

"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well."

If I were to somehow commit this same act, it would be a horrible crime.
 
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Setyoufree

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God cannot sin. God CAN and does kill.

Murder is sin....In fact hate is sin. See Matt chapter 5

"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well."

Deut 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown . The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin (i.e., unbelief) and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.
 
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Setyoufree

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"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well."

Let me give you another perspective:

For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians: and when He sees the blood on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23; emphasis supplied).

This is in harmony with Deut 31:17 I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, (the result?) and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?
 
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Setyoufree

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For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians: and when He sees the blood on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23; emphasis supplied).


The blood on the doorpost represented Christ's life laid down in death, i.e., our redemption in Christ Jesus. Those who refused, in unbelief, to perform this sign were outwardly rejecting their need of Christ. The result? No protection!



This is in harmony with Deut 31:17 I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, (the result?) and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us? [/quote]
 
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Setyoufree

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Nanopants

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I responded to the following:



The underlying concept is that offenses against God are infinite because he is infinite. This idea developed during the medieval period, when Anselm reinterpreted Jesus' substitution as satisfying a debt of honor to God. Scholars commonly see this as the result of the medieval concept of justice, where the same offense is different depending upon whether it's against a serf, a lord, or the King. The concept is that the severity of the offense depends upon the dignity of the person offended. I believe this is contrary to Jesus' picture of God. There are other approaches to the atonement. My preference is a combination of Rom 6 and Jesus' statement in the words of institution that his death is a covenant sacrifice to establish the new covenant.

Of course eternal punishment isn't necessarily tied to one's theory of the atonement. People have believed in eternal punishment without necessarily holding the Anselmian theory of the atonement. Thus my objection to your argument isn't fatal to the idea of eternal suffering. The strongest argument for me is Biblical. The usual moral justification is that the person chooses alienation from God. See e.g. the second posting in this thread, http://www.christianforums.com/t7795908/#post64770392. I don't see any way to avoid eternal punishment without a seriously non-literal interpretation of Matthew. I'm prepared to do that. Few others in CF are.

I'd like to know if this statement in bold derived from Mat 5? That chapter seems to top the charts on the eternal torment scale.
 
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Setyoufree

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See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. -Deu 32:39.

Yes, but that's because God is sovereign and nothing can happen without His permission.

Think it out....God allowed Lucifer to come in and temp our first parents. He then allowed Lucifer to develop his kingdom based in sin. Because He has allowed (and He has a good reason for doing so, but that's another topic) He assumes the blame for all the fallout until the day of Atonement where the blame for sin and death is clearly placed on Lucifer.
 
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