3rd Temple coming soon..

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Douggg

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I am a anti-Zionist, Pro-Palestinian Christian. Islam and Shari'a have nothing to do with my views. Israel is intentionally making the lives of the Palestinians living hell in an attempt to ethically cleanse them and demographically dominate them.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dR2ZUQg_StU

Islam and Shari'a may have nothing to do with your views, but Yasser Arafat leader of the Palestinians it does. And those same Palestinians were jumping up in down celebrating in the streets when 911 happened.

I am pro-Israel. And pro that God gave the (promised) land to the Jews. And it is His right to bring the Jews back into the land which is His, and make them a single country again. Islam teaches that once a land has been conquered and possessed by muslims, should it revert back, then muslims cannot rest until it is back in the hands of Islam again. That's what's going on over there.

There was no nation of Palestine over there when the Jews came out of the diaspora at the end of WWII. Islam teaches the same thing that replacement theology teaches, that God is done with Israel as a nation. So the day that the Jews declared their homeland, "Israel", 18 million Arabs declared war on them, and by the grace of God they were defeated and have been defeated in every war with Israel since.

The biggest mistake the Jews made was not blowing up the Dome of the Rock when their chief rabbi wanted to when they regained control of Jerusalem in 1967, but the Israeli commander a non-religious Jew said no.
 
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Islam and Shari'a may have nothing to do with your views, but Yasser Arafat leader of the Palestinians it does. And those same Palestinians were jumping up in down celebrating in the streets when 911 happened.

I am pro-Israel. And pro that God gave the (promised) land to the Jews. And it is His right to bring the Jews back into the land which is His, and make them a single country again. Islam teaches that once a land has been conquered and possessed by muslims, should it revert back, then muslims cannot rest until it is back in the hands of Islam again. That's what's going on over there.

There was no nation of Palestine over there when the Jews came out of the diaspora at the end of WWII. Islam teaches the same thing that replacement theology teaches, that God is done with Israel as a nation. So the day that the Jews declared their homeland, "Israel", 18 million Arabs declared war on them, and by the grace of God they were defeated and have been defeated in every war with Israel since.

The biggest mistake the Jews made was not blowing up the Dome of the Rock when their chief rabbi wanted to when they regained control of Jerusalem in 1967, but the Israeli commander a non-religious Jew said no.

18 million Arabs never declared war on Israel, in the 1948 war it was 55,000 combined Arab army against 90,000-100,000 Jewish army and militia force.

60 % of the Jewish casualties occurred on lands that were partitioned to the Arabs under the UN plan.

Those 55,000 Arabs came to intervene against Zionist aggressive land grabbing.

That David and Goliath start is purely a Zionist myth to popularize their cause. Christian Zionists bought into it hook, line, and sinker. Along with many westerners. That David vs Goliath is nothing but a sham.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by random person
I am a anti-Zionist, Pro-Palestinian Christian. Islam and Shari'a have nothing to do with my views. Israel is intentionally making the lives of the Palestinians living hell in an attempt to ethically cleanse them and demographically dominate them.
I already know the score with that...and many Christians who think it's all about Israel just turn their heads the other way. Israel can do no wrong.

The Palestinians have been equally wrong, especially with the terrorism.

The thing is we know God is a God of justice and equity...and that should be the goal.

People seem to forget Jesus came for the people of Ishmael and Esau too...there is NO partiality with God.
So what importance does Ishmael play in the plans of YAHWEH concerning "Ishmael"?

NKJV) Genesis 17:
22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him.
24 Abraham [was] ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son [was] thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael;
27 and all the men of his house, born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

Genesis 25:
8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full [of years,] and was gathered to his people.
9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, which [is] before Mamre, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite,




.
 
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ebedmelech

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So what importance does Ishmael play in the plans of YAHWEH concerning "Ishmael"?

NKJV) Genesis 17:
22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him.
24 Abraham [was] ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son [was] thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael;
27 and all the men of his house, born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

Genesis 25:
8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full [of years,] and was gathered to his people.
9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, which [is] before Mamre, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite,

.
Don't forget God's promise to make a great nation of Ishmael also. That would be Genesis 21:18
18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him by the hand, for I will make a great nation of him.”

How they fit in the plan of God is no different than anyone else. God will save people out of all nations.

You will see the descendant of Ishmael at Genesis 25:12-18.

These are the people of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia...etc. Those people will tell you the are descendants of Abraham and Ishmael. Remember also that Esau married into Esau's line at Genesis 28:6-9.

While I was in the Navy one of my troops was an Iranian immigrant and he and I would talk of these things. He would often remind me "Persians are Abraham's descendants too" (according to the flesh anyway). I would agree with him but I would have to stress to Him God's promise of the Messiah was not in Ishmael. That's where the line would draw.
 
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Dougg, this is where futurism is really quite reckless. Not only is it working with a different set of promises, it heaves them into the modern setting without any reference to what the real mission of the NT is--the NT which says nothing of the land, and says in Heb 11 that it was not the promise anyway!

The bedouin lands were so vacant in the 1st half of the 20th century that they didn't even have the concept of land ownership. If you read the new bio of Lawrence of Arabia, the effort to start a WW1 and redraw the Ottoman Empire (latent Islam) was as far back as 1890, and Jewish people wanted a piece as far back as that. There are only practicalities in cases like this. Oil was coming on the scene (see the film DAY OF THE FALCON based on the German novel THE GREAT THIRST), and the whole scene was much more of how to bring the world marketplace to an area where people did not have a concept of land ownership, and were still expanding or re-expanding Islamic caliphates.

To me, this makes the maintenance of a tiny place like Israel one of the most expensive feel-good social projects of our time, considering the impracticality of it all. There are many places they could thrive without the expense.

It's just that we can't count on the NT to resonate on such a project. It has other themes which make it soar; it has quite another mission underway.
 
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iamlamad

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We need to remove the ball and chain with the fallacious rendering in IIThess.2:4 only for starters. Purge "Temple," and simply merge "Sanctuary."

Now for enders, just look within making sure someone else has not replaced the residing of the Holy Spirit within one's "Sanctuary." Due to IIThess.2:10b even now?

Jack :cool:

You can purge temple and substitute "sanctuary" if you want, just remember, it is STILL a brick and mortar "sanctuary" where the man if sin can ENTER it and declare he is god. SAme goes for Rev. 11. John is given a reed to MEASURE, as in a brick and mortar building. IT has an ALTAR inside, as in a brick and mortar building. There are worshipers INSIDE as in a brick and mortar building. Nuf said. Any 5th grader would recognize both verses as speaking of a REAL BUILDING.

LAMAD
 
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shturt678s

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You can purge temple and substitute "sanctuary" if you want, just remember, it is STILL a brick and mortar "sanctuary" where the man if sin can ENTER it and declare he is god. SAme goes for Rev. 11. John is given a reed to MEASURE, as in a brick and mortar building. IT has an ALTAR inside, as in a brick and mortar building. There are worshipers INSIDE as in a brick and mortar building. Nuf said. Any 5th grader would recognize both verses as speaking of a REAL BUILDING.

LAMAD

Was above my paygrade all the time, ie, I set the record in our small town, ie, the only one kicked out of school for fighting repeatedly in the 3rd grade. This is 5th grader stuff hence not accountable. ;) However:

Too literal my friend, ie, Rev.1:1, "...to show....he signified.." matches the visions - symbolized.

Rev.11:1, "Up and measure the Sanctuary" The vision of Chapter 10 continues into Rev.11, ie, John does not start anew with "I saw," but proceeds with a narration fo this own participation in a further symbolical act.

Prophesying extends and maintains the Church Lamad. Thus in Chapter 10 we have the little book (Not as in Rom.1:16, but 1:18) John's eating it and prophesying to many people, nations, tongues, kings, ie, miss any?; and now we see him measuring the result (The Sanctuary, the altar, the worshippers -composite my friend), ie, the Church that gets through the Seals and the Trumpets - marking the boundry line between the Church and all those who are without.

Jack putting for a higher paygrade :D
 
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Here is the CIA assessment of the Six Day War (please note Christian Zionists, none of Israel's were miraculous):

Middle East Heat

image.jpg


On the morning of 23 May—the day after Egypt closed the Gulf of Aqaba, Israel's only access to the Red Sea—President Johnson summoned Helms from a congressional briefing and tasked him with providing an assessment of the increasingly volatile Middle East situation. Here was a chance for the CIA to seize the day analytically. Only four hours later—just in time for one of LBJ's “Tuesday lunches”— Helms had in hand two papers: “US Knowledge of Egyptian Alert” and “Overall Arab and Israeli Military Capabilities.” Those memoranda, plus a Situation Report (SITREP), were delivered to him in the groound floor lobby outside the White House office of presidential adviser Walt Rostow. The remarkably rapid turnaround was possible because the Directorate of Intelligence's (DI) Arab-Israeli task force, in existence since early in the year, already was producing two SITREPs a day, and the Office of Current Intelligence (OCI) had for months been keeping a running log of the two sides' relative strengths and states of readiness. The second paper Helms had brought—the “who will win” memo—was the crucial one. It stated that Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.”[5]



Freshly informed by CIA assessments contradicting a supposed pessimistic
Israeli estimate of Arab military capabilities, Johnson, in the presence of
Secretary McNamara and other senior officials, hears out Israeli Ambassador.
Abba Eban on 26 May 1967.

Two days later, Tel Aviv muddled this clear intelligence picture by submitting to Washington a Mossad estimate that claimed the Israeli military was badly outgunned by a Soviet-backed Arab war machine. The Israelis may have been trying to exploit the special relationship they had with James Angleton, chief of CIA counterintelligence. For years, Angleton had run the Israeli account out of his Counterintelligence Staff, without involving the Directorate of Plans's Near East Division. That unusual arrangement may have given Tel Aviv a sense that Washington accorded its analyses such special import that US leaders would listen to its judgments on Arab-Israeli issues over those of their own intelligence services.[6]
image.jpg


Helms had the Office of National Estimates (ONE) prepare an appraisal of the Mossad assessment, which was ready in only five hours. ONE flatly stated: “We do not believe that the Israeli appreciation .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. was a serious estimate of the sort they would submit to their own high officials.” Rather, “it is probably a gambit intended to influence the US to .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. provide military supplies .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. make more public commitments to Israel .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. approve Israeli military initiatives, and .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. put more pressure on [Egyptian President] Nasser.” ONE further concluded—contrary to Tel Aviv's suspicions—that “the Soviet aim is still to avoid military involvement and to give the US a black eye among the Arabs by identifying it with Israel”; Moscow “probably could not openly help the Arabs because of lack of capability, and probably would not for fear of confrontation with the US.” It was this latter ONE judgment that caused Dean Rusk to remark to Helms, “if this is a mistake, it's a beaut.” The same judgment triggered an order from the president to Helms and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Earle Wheeler to “scrub it down.” Helms returned to CIA headquarters and told the Board of National Estimates to produce a coordinated assessment by the next day.[7]

[Top of Page]

[bless and do not curse]

Making the Right Call
That paper—issued the following afternoon with the title “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”—is the illustrious “special estimate” in which the CIA (in collaboration with the Defense Intelligence Agency) purportedly called the war right, from its outcome down to the day it would end. It actually was a memorandum, not a Special National Intelligence Estimate, and although drafts had said that the Israelis would need seven to nine days to reach the Suez Canal, that precision was sacrificed in the coordination process. Instead, the paper estimated that Israeli armored forces could breach Egypt's forward lines in the Sinai within “several” days. In another memorandum issued the same day, ONE doubted that Moscow had encouraged the Egyptian president's provocations and concluded that it would not intervene with its own forces to save the Arabs from defeat. As one senior Agency analyst who helped write these papers later remarked: “Rarely has the Intelligence Community spoken as clearly, as rapidly, and with such unanimity.”[8]

Informed by these assessments, President Johnson declined to airlift special military supplies to Israel or even to publicly support it. He later recalled bluntly telling Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, “All of our intelligence people are unanimous that if the UAR attacks, you will whip hell out of them.”[9]

Having answered one crucial question of the president's—how would the war end?—Helms also was able to warn him when it was about to begin. According to several published accounts, Helms met on 1 June with a senior Israeli official who hinted that Israel could no longer avoid a decision. Its restraint thus far was due to American pressure, but, he said, the delay had cost Israel the advantage of surprise. Helms interpreted the remarks as suggesting that Israel would attack very soon. Moreover, according to Helms, the official stated clearly that although Israel expected US diplomatic backing and the delivery of weapons already agreed upon, it would request no additional support and did not expect any. The official abruptly left the United States on 2 June along with the Israeli ambassador. That morning, according to published accounts, Helms wrote an “Eyes Only” letter to President Johnson, forewarning that Israel probably would start a war within a few days.[10]

[Top of Page]

[bless and do not curse]

War!
Helms was awakened at 3:00 in the morning on 5 June by a call from the CIA Operations Center. The Foreign Broadcast Information Service had picked up reports that Israel had launched its attack. (OCI soon concluded that the Israelis— contrary to their claims—had fired first.) President Johnson was gratified that because of CIA analyses and Helms's tip, he could inform congressional leaders later in the day that he had been expecting Israel's move.[11]

During the brief war, Helms went to the White House every day but one, reporting to the NSC and the president's special committee of Middle East experts, using the outpouring of SITREPS from OCI (five a day), DI special memoranda, the President's Daily Brief, and other analytical products. “In the midst of one meeting,” Helms recalled,

LBJ suddenly fixed his attention on me in my usual seat at the end of the long table. “Dick,” he snapped, “just how accurate is your intelligence on the progress of this war?” Without having a moment to consider the evidence, I shot from the hip, “It's accurate jiust as long as the Israelis are winning.” It may have sounded as if I were smarting off, but it was the exact truth, and it silenced [those around] the table. Only an amused twitch of Dean Acheson's mustache suggested his having noted my reasoning.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...s/vol49no1/html_files/arab_israeli_war_1.html
 
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The Six-Day War: 5 June 1967
Israeli intelligence was outstanding, having pinpointed the location of every Egyptian squadron, revealed the layout of every air base, and mastered every detail of Egyptian Air Force operational procedure…. During the course of the morning, the Israelis struck 18 of Egypt’s Air Force bases, cratering runways, blowing up aircraft, and destroying support facilities. The Egyptians lost over 300 of their 420 combat aircraft, and 100 of their 350 qualified combat pilots.

—Kenneth Pollack[28]

Israeli intelligence was, indeed, outstanding in the Six-Day War. It demonstrated how strategic intelligence can be used in conjunction with operational intelligence to provide senior decisionmakers information necessary to make well-informed national security decisions and to give leaders opportunities to mitigate the numerical superiority of an adversary. Yet, just as Israeli intelligence in this case can be viewed as an example of how intelligence operations should be conducted, Egypt’s poor intelligence opened the door to its own defeat.

In 1967, Israel faced a monumental security task: defense of the nation against several Arab armed forces that, when combined, held an advantages of two to one in manpower, two to one in tanks, seven to one in artillery, three to one in aircraft, and four to one in warships. On its southern border, Israel had roughly 70,000 troops in the Sinai against Egypt’s 100,000; 700 tanks against 950; and it had to distribute its 200 aircraft across all fronts while facing Egypt’s concentrated 430.[29]

Nor could Israel count on technological superiority to overcome the odds. Israeli intelligence, for example, had scored a coup by obtaining a MiG-21 fighter from an Iraqi defector, and it had determined that Egypt’s MiGs were better than all but their Mirage aircraft. Egyptian artillery was superior, and their T-55 tanks were more capable than the majority of Israel’s tanks.[30] And while Israeli forces were better trained, had superior leadership, and had a far more flexible doctrine, Egypt’s army could boast that the majority of its soldiers were combat veterans.

Israel faced a similar situation to its north, against Syria and Lebanon, and to its east, against Jordan. Finally, Israel faced a hostile international community; the United States was an ally but eager to avoid any spark that could ignite a conflict with Egypt’s ally, the Soviet Union.

Events began spinning into war in November 1966, with the signing of an Egyptian and Syrian alliance, and led to an Egyptian threat to use force on 18 May 1967. Egypt had mobilized its military and announced combat readiness in the Sinai, followed on the 23rd by a closure of the Straits of Tiran, blockading the Israeli port of Eliat.

Israel took these acts, particularly the blockade, to be cause for war. Further, Israeli intelligence was able to verify that Egypt had plans for an attack, code named Asad, on Eliat and other targets in the Negev on the 27th. This revelation was passed to the United States, which placed sufficient pressure on the Soviet Union and Egypt to force a cancellation of the attack.[31] But all other diplomatic efforts failed, and the Israelis confronted the decision of (1) preempting their enemies’ first strikes; (2) allowing themselves to be hit first by a numerically stronger adversary; or (3) continuing an unacceptable status quo. Israel chose to attack first.

A preemptive strike against the Arabs had always been a major part of the Israeli concept of operations, but it was their military intelligence, under the command of the bright and aggressive Aharon Yariv, that proved decisive.

‘Know your enemy’ was not, Yariv told his heads of departments, merely a figure of speech; it had to be taken literally. It was not enough to know Arab strategy on the grand scale; Yariv wanted to know everything about every Arab unit down to the menus served in the sergeants’ mess.[32]

And, quite literally, Israeli intelligence had a clearer picture of the Egyptian order of battle and capabilities than did Egypt’s own commanders.

In the two-years before the Six-Day War, Yariv not only set about knowing the whereabouts of every Arab air base, but also having each inspected. Israeli intelligence officers, often working as chefs or coopting Egyptian soldiers, provided a complete picture of the EAF, including:

the whereabouts of every aircraft and name/information on the pilot;

the name, background, status, and schedule of every base commander;

schedules and turnovers of Egyptian radar controllers;

reveille and morning schedules for the pilots and ground crews;

the complete Egyptian battle codes and communications networks; and

when senior air officials would be absent from their commands, and unable to direct operations.[33]

From this information, Israeli intelligence developed a precise targeting package. It knew when the EAF would be most vulnerable–when the aircraft would be most exposed; when the pilots would be slowest in getting to their aircraft for flight operations; and when leadership would be unable to provide direction. With comparable intelligence on Egypt’s land forces and effectiveness, Yariv believed that Israel could not conceivably lose the war. “So finely tuned was his intelligence apparatus that he was able to predict an outcome which was to astonish the world when it was all over.”[34]

Coupled with military operational intelligence, the Israeli Mossad—its state intelligence agency—had developed relationships with foreign governments and intelligence agencies that provided new and corroborated strategic and tactical intelligence before the war. The relationship with the United States, in particular, served a critical role before the preemptive strike by making clear to both the CIA and Pentagon that war was inevitable and getting tacit buy-in on the plan. “The United States understood Israel’s reasoning and did not object to the preemptive attack. Amit’s (head of the Mossad) achievement in secret diplomacy was built upon the international intelligence links which the Mossad had worked so hard to foster for years.”[35]

Knowing that the United States would not condemn the attack and armed with an exceptionally well-developed plan, Israeli leaders authorized the use of force, thus seizing the initiative from their adversaries.

The preemptive air strike proved decisive. The attack caught the Egyptian Air Force with its commander, General Mahmud, out of contact with his forces. “In his absence, the EAF was paralyzed. Without specific authorization, the vast majority of Egypt’s air force officers, from air sector commanders all the way down to pilots, were uwilling to take even the most obvious emergency procedures.”[36] Only eight MiGs got into the air to defend their airfields; every one was shot down. The airfields that were undamaged in the initial strikes managed to get only 20 aircraft into the air, all of which were either shot down or crashed when they could find no undamaged airstrips to which to return. All told, three-quarters of the EAF was destroyed in the first hours of the war. Intelligence had paved the way for the Israeli Air Force to win one of the most lopsided victories in history.

But credit for Israel’s success cannot be explained by its intelligence alone; indicators and warning should have prepared the Egyptians for what was to come. As Kenneth Pollack contends, “There was a colossal failure on the part of Cairo’s intelligence services to provide the Egyptian military with the information required to fight Israel.” He notes that Egyptian intelligence:

was biased to the political climate and, therefore, did not provide clear and decisive analysis on whether Israel was going to attack;

issued reports to commanders that changed daily and were often contradictory;

provided no credible intelligence on Israel’s order of battle, effectiveness, doctrine, or planned strategy;

had no intelligence on where Israeli forces were and, to the extent that it had information, fell victim to Israel’s denial and deception campaign; and

did not understand the concept of flexibility stressed by the Israeli military in conducting joint and independent operations.[37]

As a result of these failings, even had Egypt’s military been better trained and led, it was at a significant disadvantage from the outset. Once combat began, Egyptian forces had no understanding of where Israel would strike, with what force, in what manner, with what tactics or effect, over what duration, or with what objective—in short, they were blind.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ol50no2/html_files/Intelligence_War_2.htm#top
 
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Douggg

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Dougg, this is where futurism is really quite reckless. Not only is it working with a different set of promises, it heaves them into the modern setting without any reference to what the real mission of the NT is--the NT which says nothing of the land, and says in Heb 11 that it was not the promise anyway!

The bedouin lands were so vacant in the 1st half of the 20th century that they didn't even have the concept of land ownership. If you read the new bio of Lawrence of Arabia, the effort to start a WW1 and redraw the Ottoman Empire (latent Islam) was as far back as 1890, and Jewish people wanted a piece as far back as that. There are only practicalities in cases like this. Oil was coming on the scene (see the film DAY OF THE FALCON based on the German novel THE GREAT THIRST), and the whole scene was much more of how to bring the world marketplace to an area where people did not have a concept of land ownership, and were still expanding or re-expanding Islamic caliphates.

To me, this makes the maintenance of a tiny place like Israel one of the most expensive feel-good social projects of our time, considering the impracticality of it all. There are many places they could thrive without the expense.

It's just that we can't count on the NT to resonate on such a project. It has other themes which make it soar; it has quite another mission underway.

There is no mission higher than God's will be done. God back in the old testament says He owns everything. It is His land to give to whoever He wants.
 
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There is no mission higher than God's will be done. God back in the old testament says He owns everything. It is His land to give to whoever He wants.

Absolutely true, but he also set forth preconditions that the Jews were obligated to fulfill if they desired to inhabit the land and stay in the land.

But this was all under the Old Covenant, the Biblical nation of Israel fulfilled its purposes and has no purpose under the New Covenant neither does the Third Temple.

Here is a theory, what if the state of Israel and the Third Temple itself is the strong delusion Christians were warned against. I don't believe in the dispossession of millions of souls into 5-6 million refugees, the denial of Palestinian rights, the home evictions, the home demolitions, the olive tree destructions, and the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. The illegal settlers are squeezing the occupied Palestinians into canton ghettos, separated from one another and separated by the giant apartheid wall from their ancestral farmlands.

Maybe the strong delusion and the anti-Christ is Israel itself and its proposed Third Temple? The suffering of the Palestinians is quite unholy afterall in DEFIANCE OF THE MOSIAC LAW. Just my .02 cents worth.

The Old Covenant is supposed to point towards Christ. And the Church represents the manifest growth of his Kingdom, not the apostate, secular state of Israel.

Take this post with more than a grain of salt.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Douggg
There is no mission higher than God's will be done. God back in the old testament says He owns everything. It is His land to give to whoever He wants.
Absolutely true, but he also set forth preconditions that the Jews were obligated to fulfill if they desired to inhabit the land and stay in the land.

But this was all under the Old Covenant, the Biblical nation of Israel fulfilled its purposes and has no purpose under the New Covenant neither does the Third Temple.

Here is a theory, what if the state of Israel and the Third Temple itself is the strong delusion Christians were warned against. I don't believe in the dispossession of millions of souls into 5-6 million refugees, the denial of Palestinian rights, the home evictions, the home demolitions, the olive tree destructions, and the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. The illegal settlers are squeezing the occupied Palestinians into canton ghettos, separated from one another and separated by the giant apartheid wall from their ancestral farmlands.

Maybe the strong delusion and the anti-Christ is Israel itself and its proposed Third Temple? The suffering of the Palestinians is quite unholy afterall in DEFIANCE OF THE MOSIAC LAW. Just my .02 cents worth.

The Old Covenant is supposed to point towards Christ. And the Church represents the manifest growth of his Kingdom, not the apostate, secular state of Israel.

Take this post with more than a grain of salt.
I am in agreement with that. Excellent post :thumbsup:



.
 
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Absolutely true, but he also set forth preconditions that the Jews were obligated to fulfill if they desired to inhabit the land and stay in the land.

But this was all under the Old Covenant, the Biblical nation of Israel fulfilled its purposes and has no purpose under the New Covenant neither does the Third Temple.

Here is a theory, what if the state of Israel and the Third Temple itself is the strong delusion Christians were warned against.

But it is not the strong delusion because it has no bearing on whether a person is saved or not believing in that eschatological view.

However, if a person believes the Antichrist man of sin is God - then certainly they have rejected the truth and salvation through Christ Jesus.
That's the strong delusion that God sends by bringing the slain Antichrist back to life - that them who believed his claim to be God in the first place will believe the lie.

In the New Testament, it is the new covenant Jesus made with the 12 disciples representing 12 tribes of Israel at the last supper. But all Israel was not saved, in the early years, just a small percentage. In the last days, God brings Israel back into the land, that all Israel will be saved.

In Isaiah 66, Israel before her pain delivered Jesus. Then for 2000 years has gone through the pain of the diaspora and will go through the pain of the time of the Antichrist. Out of which, Zion will deliver her children; that is, all Israel will be saved. It will happen when she is made a nation again in one day. May 14, 1948.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
 
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Israel wasn't born as a nation in one day, the 1948 war was fought over nearly ten months.

What about King Cyrus decree for Israel:
The Cyrus Decree

By Wayne Jackson
It was one of the most extraordinary acts in international history. When the Persians overthrew the Babylonian empire (539 B.C.), Cyrus, the conqueror, issued a proclamation releasing the Jews from their seventy-year period of captivity. The biblical record of that edict reads as follows.

“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth has Jehovah, the God of heaven, given me; and he has charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all his people, his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of Jehovah, the God of Israel he is God, which is in Jerusalem. And whosoever is left, in any place where he sojourns, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, besides the freewill-offering for the house of God which is in Jerusalem” (Ezra 1:2-4; cf. also 6:2-5).

Archaeological Discovery

In 1879, an explorer by the name of Hormuzd Rassam discovered the famous “Cyrus Cylinder” (now in the British Museum) at the site of ancient Babylon. The small (9 inch long), barrel-shaped, clay chronicle describes the benevolent policy of Cyrus in restoring captives to their homelands, along with their religious treasures. In part, the inscription has the ruler saying:
“I returned to these sacred cities on the other side of the Tigris, the sanctuaries of which have been ruins for a long time, the images which [used] to live therein and established for them permanent sanctuaries. I [also] gathered all their [former] inhabitants and returned [to them] their habitations” (Pritchard, 208).
This text demonstrates that the disposition of Cyrus towards the Hebrews was a reflection of his generally benevolent attitude regarding those he subjugated.


Benevolence to the Jews

In his famous decree, Cyrus claimed that Jehovah “has charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem.” Clearly the king saw himself, in some sense, as a tool in the hand of God. What he did not realize at the time was this: Jehovah foretold, two centuries before the ruler’s birth, of Heaven’s providential use of this man in the divine scheme of things. Through the prophet Isaiah, the Lord spoke:
“Thus says Jehovah to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him, and I will loose the loins of kings; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut: I will go before you, and make the rough places smooth; I will break in pieces the doors of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron; and I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that it is I, Jehovah, who call you by thy name, even the God of Israel. For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel my chosen, I have called you by your name: I have surnamed you, though you have not known me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known me; that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else” (Isaiah 45:1-6; see also 44:26-28).
This is an absolutely fascinating prophecy regarding the Persian ruler. Though this is not the place to discuss the matter in detail, the record of the Cyrus Cylinder reveals that the Persian commander took the city of Babylon “without any battle”; the soldiers “strolled along, their weapons stowed away” (Pritchard, 207). For further study of the fall of Babylon, as orchestrated by Jehovah under the hand of Cyrus, see our commentary, Jeremiah & Lamentations (“Babylon: A Test Case in Prophecy,” 175-187).


The Testimony of Josephus

We would, however, call attention to the following circumstance, as recorded by Josephus. The Jewish historian declared that in the reign of Cyrus the Persian, God terminated the captivity of his people, as he had promised he would through the testimony of Jeremiah the prophet. The historian describes the manner of this undertaking in the following fashion. He says that God:
“…stirred up the mind of Cyrus, and made him write throughout all Asia: ‘Thus says Cyrus the king: Since God Almighty has appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that God which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem, in the country of Judea.’
“This was known to Cyrus by his reading the book which Isaiah left behind him of his prophecies; for this prophet said that God had spoken to him in a secret vision: ‘My will is, that Cyrus, whom I have appointed to be king over many and great nations, send back my people to their own land, and build my temple.’ This was foretold by Isaiah one hundred and forty years before the temple was demolished. Accordingly, when Cyrus read this, and admired the Divine power, an earnest desire and ambition seized upon him to fulfill what was so written…” (Antiquities 11.1.1-2).
Conclusion

A consideration of the facts relative to the amazing Edict of Cyrus the Great is a thrilling endeavor indeed. Studies of this nature enhance one’s confidence of the integrity of the sacred Scriptures and the precious hope they contain. Investigate such matters and be encouraged thereby.


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1287-the-cyrus-decree
 
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The Partition Plan for a Jewish and Palestinian respective states was announced November 29 1947. Civil war broke out between Jews and Arabs.

May 14, 1948 the British Mandate of Palestine expired and the Jewish People's Council made the proclamation of the Jewish state on May 14 1948. And then the first Arab-Israeli war broke out that lasted nearly ten months until the 1949 Armistice Agreements.
 
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Bible politics and Palestinian Zionists

Prior to their mass exodus following Israeli independence in 1948, there were an estimated 150,000 Christian Arabs in Palestine. Now there are approximately 50,000 Christians in the West Bank and another 1,000 in Gaza.

By Tristan Sturm Sep. 25, 2009 | 1:12 AM

Prior to their mass exodus following Israeli independence in 1948, there were an estimated 150,000 Christian Arabs in Palestine. Now there are approximately 50,000 Christians in the West Bank, most of them Greek Orthodox, and another 1,000 in Gaza. There are also 125,000 in Israel, but they include not only Arabs but also Russian immigrants and Jewish converts. For the approximately 10,000 Protestant Palestinians split between Israel and the West Bank, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is integral to their religious worldview. Most of them, particularly the Lutherans and Anglicans, view the conflict through the liberation theology borrowed from Latin American Marxist movements. But for as many as 1,000 other Protestant Palestinians who are the proteges of American Baptist missionaries, the conflict is refracted through the lens of American millennialism. The result is a rapidly growing number of Palestinian Christian Zionists.



As a grassroots resistance movement steeped in the New Testament narrative, liberation theology made sense in the face of Israeli settlements, limited Palestinian opportunity and Arab nationalism. The person who first articulated this theology-based social movement in the Palestinian context, Rev. Naim Ateek, made headlines in the late 1980s, during the first intifada, when he suggested that the Hebrew Bible "in today's language, [is] Zionist and racist," and argued that the New Testament nullified the divine covenant with the Jews. On the eve of the second intifada, Ateek, whose ministry is based in both Jerusalem and Bethlehem, characterized the leaders of Israel's government as latter-day "King Herods" who "crucify" Palestinians. Four years later in a booklet published by his Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center, Ateek argued that suicide bombers are "the product of [Israel's] own making ... [and] could be [seen as] a legitimate way of resistance."



For Palestinian Christian Zionists who embrace Israel's activities and financially support aliyah, Ateek's words are heretical. These Christians have found a new meaning in their role in the land, by forming proselytizing missions to convert the Jews. Most espouse an End Time theo-politics borrowed from Christian millennialism that shares much with the religious Zionism formulated by Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook. They not only believe that the return of the messiah hinges on Israeli territorial maximalism but also - like most American Evangelicals - believe that Jews have a special biblical role as the chosen people. According to Pastor Steven Khoury, it's the job of the Jews to return to the land and convert to Christianity, while it's the job of Christians to help bring that about.



The most influential figure for this group is Khoury's father, the Jerusalem-born pastor Naim Khoury, who in 1968 converted from Greek Orthodoxy to Baptist Evangelical Christianity. Since then, he claims to have drawn in more than 400 congregants, spread across five congregations in the West Bank. Khoury and his son were trained as pastors in Atlanta, Georgia, a hotbed of conservative Christian fundamentalism. They brought back with them what historian Richard Hofstadter famously called the "paranoid style in American politics" - characteristic of the anti-government frontier experience, as well as the deterministic ideas of an imminent apocalypse central to early Puritanism. It is at this intersection of Americanism and millennialism that Palestinians like Naim Khoury find comfort and meaning in the conflict. In the face of Palestinians' unanswered prayers for peace, the Christian Zionist story about the centrality of the Jews as the Chosen People appears undeniably true: The only escape for the Palestinians is the Rapture (that event when "Yeshua" summons them to heaven just prior to Armageddon). For Palestinian Christian Zionists like Khoury, "There is no peace [and there] will be no peace .... There will only be peace when Christ returns. It's very close."



Because their beliefs are antithetical to both Islam and Palestinian nationalism, Naim Khoury and his followers live under constant physical threat. The pastor's church has been bombed 14 times by what he calls "extreme Hamas fundamentalists," and he has been shot. Khoury defends his Zionism as not his ideas, but those of the Bible, which he reads literally. "There is no Palestinian theology," Khoury says, "There is one Bible." But Khoury told me that as an Arab, he is more often perceived by his American brethren as aligned with the forces of Satan in the post-9/11 conservative Evangelical geopolitical worldview than as a partner in faith.


Naim Khoury is not a lone leader. Shmuel Aweida, a pastor at a Messianic Jewish church in Haifa, is a self-proclaimed Palestinian Zionist who identifies as wholly Israeli and somewhat anti-Arab. He admits that he sometimes wishes he had been born Jewish, but to his chagrin, he is an "Arab who loves Israel ... [and] God's plan of salvation. He chooses Israel."
Both camps of Protestant Palestinians read the Bible through politics and politics through the Bible. While Ateek's nationalist project champions active resistance, the unproductive effort toward a Palestinian state has led some, like Khoury and Aweida, to fatalistic messianism. What makes the Palestinian Zionists unique in the annals of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the way in which American millennialism, seemingly against all odds, has convinced a small group of Palestinians to identify with the other side.


Tristan Sturm is a Ph.D. candidate at UCLA and a fellow at the Hebrew University. He is co-editor of the book, "Mapping the End Times," to be published by Ashgate in January.

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Here is a theory, what if the state of Israel and the Third Temple itself is the strong delusion Christians were warned against.

And another theory:
What if satan is using new ideas to decieve people away from being watchfull.
"Oh, that all happened in AD 70 so theres nothing to see here. Move along.....Oh, you know that 2nd and 3rd century church just didn't know what they were talking about. They just weren't endwelled by the Holy Spirit as much as Josephus was...."

I understand your theory.
Do you understand my theory?
 
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