Why is the LDS church considered a Christian Denomination?

Parogar · Dec 25, 2013

For those of you here who don't know me (some of you do), I've been studying up on Lutheranism and hanging around the forums for a few months. I've learned a lot from people here, but today, I have a different sort of question.

The reason I'm making this post is because I constantly find myself in arguments with Mormons who insist that their religion is a Christian religion, and I'm wondering how this is even possible.

Allow me to clarify, however. Here are some facts about Mormonism.

#1 They claim to worship Jesus, yet they have the audacity to claim that Jesus is just one God among many, and that Jesus is a space astronaut who flew to Earth from a star called Kolab.

#2: In all of human history, no matter what evils man has done and no matter how far from the right path Christianity/Catholicism has ventured, to date, only ONE religion has ever outright denied that Jesus Christ can save everyone. And that religion is the LDS church (Mormonism).

Even in the awful times of slavery, there was never any mainstream Christian groups that claimed black people can't be saved--except the LDS, which until 1978 did not even allow black people inside their religion.

The point of this is that Mormonism has historically taught that Jesus can't save everyone, which is basically the antithesis of Christianity 101, is it not?

#3: Mormonism teaches that Satan is God's brother rather than one of God's creations.

#4 The creepy one: They baptize dead people. How? Just ... how?

Anyway, how is it that Mormons can claim to be Christian when they don't even believe in the same Jesus?

Parogar · Dec 25, 2013

About #4:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior, yes?

How can you choose for someone else whether or not they accept this? When you baptize someone who is already dead, haven't they already been judged? And even if they haven't, how can you say choose FOR a dead person whether or not they accept Christ into their hearts?

Believing you can baptize someone AFTER they've died is no different than believing you can baptize someone who is in another country. It's basically like a ... like some weird, voodoo-type baptism thing.

Willie T · Dec 25, 2013

Jesus said for us not to be afraid of men....... but many of us are. They are afraid not to be "PC".

Notice the Bible never calls a homosexual,"Gay"? But we do.

Moses Medina · Dec 26, 2013

They are not. They want to be and have been trying for along time though to be recognized as such.

Luther073082 · Dec 26, 2013

Most Christians I know don't recognize LDS as being Christian.

Tangible · Dec 26, 2013

I have an RLDS church across the street from my house. They recently renamed themselves Community of Christ (the whole denomination, that is) in a rather Orwellian attempt to claim that they are something that they are not.

Perhaps a more truthful name would be The American Church of Arian Christians. (But then they'd always have to explain that it's about the heretic Arius, not the Aryans of 19th Century racist anthropology.)

Resha Caner · Dec 27, 2013

The word "Christian" isn't owned by the Church such that we can license who can use it and who cannot. It bugs me to see meanings watered down by those who try to appropriate justification for themselves by equivocating on such things, but I think there's something in the Bible about us living in a sinful world.

In other words, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't argue with a Mormon about whether he is Christian or not. I don't think it will gain you anything. Neither should you err in judging a Mormon as in some way lost.

Rather, you witness to them the truth of the Gospel you have been given by the grace of God and pray for the Spirit to open their eyes.

VolRaider · Dec 27, 2013

Resha Caner said:
The word "Christian" isn't owned by the Church such that we can license who can use it and who cannot. It bugs me to see meanings watered down by those who try to appropriate justification for themselves by equivocating on such things, but I think there's something in the Bible about us living in a sinful world.

In other words, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't argue with a Mormon about whether he is Christian or not. I don't think it will gain you anything. Neither should you err in judging a Mormon as in some way lost.

Rather, you witness to them the truth of the Gospel you have been given by the grace of God and pray for the Spirit to open their eyes.

If they say they are Christian, then we have no choice but to lump them with Christianity. Are they heretical? Yes, big time. Do they have any idea who Christ really is? No. But they do believe in the Resurrection, they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (not in a Trinitarian sense), and they celebrate communion and baptism as well. They might be WAY off the beaten path, but heyso are JWs, many Episcopalians, SDAs, etc.

Parogar · Dec 27, 2013

VolRaider said:
If they say they are Christian, then we have no choice but to lump them with Christianity. Are they heretical? Yes, big time. Do they have any idea who Christ really is? No. But they do believe in the Resurrection, they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (not in a Trinitarian sense), and they celebrate communion and baptism as well. They might be WAY off the beaten path, but heyso are JWs, many Episcopalians, SDAs, etc.

Yes, but they do not believe in the same holy ghost that you believe in, or even the same Christ.

Their Jesus (and I'm sorry if this is offensive but it's the truth) shares almost THE ENTIRE ORIGIN STORY with SUPERMAN.

Yes, SUPERMAN.

Alien from another planet, check.

Powers here on earth that he didn't have at home, check.

Married a reporter (No: this is like the only difference)

Saves lives in America, check. (Yes, they actually tell of Jesus coming to America and saving farmers and stuff).

I'm sorry, but they don't believe in the same Jesus. Jesus Christ is just a name, at the end of the day. Anyone can name a character in a book "Jesus Christ." But that doesn't make him the same Jesus that the bible speaks of.

I really don't mean this to be offensive, but simply saying the words "I believe in Jesus Christ" does not make one a Christian.

It's that very attitude that has driven me into atheism for most of my life, until only recently have I learned to stop associating Jesus Christ with his Christians.

And Mormonism is probably the biggest "insult", not to Christianity, but to Christ himself.

Parogar · Dec 27, 2013

I want to add a point #5 that I only discovered recently.

Mormons believe that God was once a normal man no different from us, who gained his power in "the same way that all Gods before him gained their power."

That one belief alone makes it 100% incompatible with Christianity.

Here is a quote from none other than Joseph Smith himself: "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.""

^^ This is polytheism. This is incompatible with every single Christ-centric religion in existence.

Luther073082 · Dec 27, 2013

VolRaider said:
If they say they are Christian, then we have no choice but to lump them with Christianity. Are they heretical? Yes, big time. Do they have any idea who Christ really is? No. But they do believe in the Resurrection, they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (not in a Trinitarian sense), and they celebrate communion and baptism as well. They might be WAY off the beaten path, but hey…so are JWs, many Episcopalians, SDAs, etc.

So what if my Jesus is a mass murderer who likes child sacrifice and hates everyone. Am I a Christian?

You can't just change everything about Jesus, who he is, and what he believes in and still get the title of Christian from people who really are Christians and believe in the Jesus presented in the Gospels.

If you are making up your own Christ and your own God you are not a Christian.

I try not to judge religious beliefs based on how "crazy" they might sound to me. I believe a man was born of a virgin and resurrected himself from death. . . That's pretty crazy on the surface of it, so I'm not critical of other faiths for being crazy.

That having been said there are certain core beliefs, one of them being the trinity that one must hold to in order to qualify themselves as a Christian. Otherwise you are just someone who made up your own Jesus.

VolRaider · Dec 27, 2013

Luther073082 said:
So what if my Jesus is a mass murderer who likes child sacrifice and hates everyone. Am I a Christian?

You can't just change everything about Jesus, who he is, and what he believes in and still get the title of Christian from people who really are Christians and believe in the Jesus presented in the Gospels.

If you are making up your own Christ and your own God you are not a Christian.

You have a good point, but I view them more as a Christian heresy than a totally separate religion. Maybe I'm wrong - I certainly believe some of their beliefs are WAY off the beaten path. But there are definitely things - outside of their core beliefs about Jesus - that I really like about them.

BTW, to answer your question - of course the answer is no. But there are definitely some "Christians" out there who like to point out who and what Jesus hates (Westboro Baptist comes to mind). At least most Mormons aren't the hard-core hatemongers that some Trinitarian Christians seem to be. And believe me, I have heard lots of hate spewed from some of the "Christians" from my neck of the woods.

Parogar · Dec 27, 2013

^^

Isn't Christian Heretic an oxymoron?

Parogar · Dec 27, 2013

The point that I'm really trying to drive home here, though, is more of an A and B type of thing.

Point A: This point is to prove that they are a polytheistic religion. This is very easy to do, as their very own bible (which is in itself a sequel to THE bible and accounts Jesus's "trip" to America), and the statements from the religion's creator not only believe that Jesus and God are entirely separate entities (literal father and son), but the religion acknowledges a belief that there are other Gods in existence.

Now, if you ask a Mormon if his religion is polytheistic, most will say no, and they will use the reasoning that they only actually WORSHIP one God. However, what they don't realize is that polytheism does not mean a worship of multiple Gods but even just a BELIEF in the EXISTENCE of other Gods. Therefore, even if they claim that they only WORSHIP one God, the fact that they think other Gods exist at all makes the religion polytheistic.

This moves us along to point B.

B: The broadest way to categorize religions is via monotheism and polytheism. Before we even get to things like Christianity, Judaism, etc. And then deeper into denominations like Methodist, Lutheran, etc. Before we get to any of that, we must first establish whether or not a religion is mono or polytheistic.

Once we've proven that Mormonism is polytheistic (which again it so clearly is), then it falls into an entirely different category of religion than Christianity does.

Christianity is a monotheistic religion: it is a member of the Judeo-Christian religions, and this particular denomination's board is the Lutheran board.

Mormonism is a Polytheistic religion. It's closer to Wicca and demon-worship.

VolRaider · Dec 28, 2013

Parogar said:
^^

Isn't Christian Heretic an oxymoron?

Depends on who you ask. Catholics believe we are Christians yet heretics at the same time.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 4, 2014

VolRaider said:
Depends on who you ask. Catholics believe we are Christians yet heretics at the same time.

No. One can be Christian and hold heretical doctrine. One can be Christian and hold heterodox doctrine. A pagan is not a heretic, they are a pagan; an Atheist is not a heretic, they are atheist.

Only a Christian can be a heretic.

Basil the Great · Jan 5, 2014

VolRaider said:
Depends on who you ask. Catholics believe we are Christians yet heretics at the same time.

Technically speaking, you are correct. However, the RCC evidently believes that modern Protestants are a lesser form of heretic than our Protestant ancestors in the 1500's, 1600's and 1700's, since it has now been decreed that salvation is possible for Protestants, via the "invincible ignorance" argument. The "invincible ignorance" argument was first used in a general sense in a Papal document in the mid-1800's, though it did not get specifically used in regard to Protestants until the mid-1900's. When one compares the modern RCC teaching on salvation for Protestants compared to Fundamentalist Protestantism's general view of salvation for Catholics, it would appear that the RCC's teaching is more generous. (As contrasted to the Mainline Protestant view of salvation which is usually quite generous for Christians of all denominations.) Regardless of the validity of the "invincible ignorance" doctrine, at least we can say that the RCC's change in it's salvation teaching regarding Protestants has brought Protestants and Catholics much closer together than in the past, if not in a doctrinal sense, at least in a common bond of Christian brotherly and sisterly love for each other. We should thank God for this!

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 6, 2014

MarkRohfrietsch said:
No. One can be Christian and hold heretical doctrine. One can be Christian and hold heterodox doctrine. A pagan is not a heretic, they are a pagan; an Atheist is not a heretic, they are atheist.

Only a Christian can be a heretic.

If one is not a Christian, or does not claim to be then they are pagan, heathen, agnostic or atheist. One can not call these heretical or heterodox. If a former Christian rejects their faith for one of the above, the would be apostate.

Lots of words.

Luther073082 · Jan 15, 2014

VolRaider said:
Luther073082 said:

So what if my Jesus is a mass murderer who likes child sacrifice and hates everyone. Am I a Christian?

You can't just change everything about Jesus, who he is, and what he believes in and still get the title of Christian from people who really are Christians and believe in the Jesus presented in the Gospels.

If you are making up your own Christ and your own God you are not a Christian.

You have a good point, but I view them more as a Christian heresy than a totally separate religion. Maybe I'm wrong - I certainly believe some of their beliefs are WAY off the beaten path. But there are definitely things - outside of their core beliefs about Jesus - that I really like about them.

BTW, to answer your question - of course the answer is no. But there are definitely some "Christians" out there who like to point out who and what Jesus hates (Westboro Baptist comes to mind). At least most Mormons aren't the hard-core hatemongers that some Trinitarian Christians seem to be. And believe me, I have heard lots of hate spewed from some of the "Christians" from my neck of the woods.

Click to expand...

You are making a comparison that doesn't mean anything. I never stated that Westboro represented Christianity either.

Being hateful is a sin in and of itself. It's a sin that a lot of people fall into, if they don't hate people for being gay, they hate the people who hate the people for being gay or someone else. Loving everyone is not an easy task for anyone.

HereIstand.Todd · Feb 19, 2014

Parogar said:
I want to add a point #5 that I only discovered recently.

Mormons believe that God was once a normal man no different from us, who gained his power in "the same way that all Gods before him gained their power."

That one belief alone makes it 100% incompatible with Christianity.

Here is a quote from none other than Joseph Smith himself: "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.""

^^ This is polytheism. This is incompatible with every single Christ-centric religion in existence.

You are correct in what you say here and they are not christian, not in any orthodox since.

Why is the LDS church considered a Christian Denomination?

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