As Christian, SHOULD CHRISTMAS BE CELEBRATED OR REJECTED,YOU DECIDE!

Second Phoenix · Dec 18, 2013

tanzel said:
Christmas (December 25th) is taught to be the day that Jesus the Christ was born.

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Who teaches that?

Some may say, "It does not matter when He was born. I am just celebrating His birth."; whereas others may say "Jesus is the reason for the season." Is that really the case? If Jesus is the reason for the season, then why didn't He let us know when to celebrate his birth? We claim we love Jesus so much but why don't we observe his death as he commanded us. Luke 22:19, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and break it, and gave unto them, saying,

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This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

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Can you explain on celebrating His incarnation on a particular day when we don't know when in the calendar it happened is a violation or has anything to do with that quote, because I am not seeing it?

He commanded us to observe the Passover, not Easter, which is also a pagan holiday associated with wild sexual orgies.

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I have never heard of a pagan holiday that was replaced by Easter, what was it called?

This is also very confusing to me - you argued against celebrating Christmas because you think Jesus commanded us not to celebrate Easter because He said to celebrate communion. Which, by the way, He said to do whenever we got together.

Jesus commanded us to observe the Holy Days in Leviticus the 23rd chapter but we ignore those days and observe traditions that have nothing to do with Jesus. In Matthew 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

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Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

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Where does Jesus say to do as you claimed - to celebrate the OT feasts?

Second Phoenix · Dec 18, 2013

tanzel said:
Where Did Christmas Come From?
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[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']World Scope Encyclopedia (1960 vol.3) states, "Christmas, the festival observed by the Christian Church on the 25th day of December in commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ. No certain knowledge of the birthday of Jesus Christ exists and its observance was not established until some time after the organization of the first churches. The 25th day of December was advocated by Julius 1, Bishop of Rome from 337 to 352, as the most suitable time to commemorate the birth of Christ. The day was finally placed on December 25th, which made it possible for all nations to observe a festival of rejoicing that the shortest day of the year has passed. The end of December was an especially significant time in the northern hemisphere. Days were short; nights long. The sun was at its lowest point. This called for the celebration of special festivals of thanksgiving and encouragement to the waning sun. When at the winter solstice in late December, the days began to lengthen once again, there was great festivity lasting into the first part of January. The reason was that the declining sun---the light of the world--had been reborn and began to gain in strength. Moreover, the newly converted peoples found it convenient to get a kind of substitute for their original celebrations of the [/font]solstice ". The birth of Jesus the Christ was assigned the date of December 25th, because on this day, as the sun began its return to the northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra (the Persian's Sun God) celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun).

The history book a Pictorial History of the Italian People states, "Saint Gregory was repelled by Graeco-Roman civilization and, paradoxically, did more than anyone else to facilitate the absorption of pagan residues into Italian Christianity. Through that process of absorption, any paganism hostile to Christianity remaining in Italian rural communities faded away".

The simple fact is that, as more and more people from throughout the Western Roman Empire became converted to an increasingly popular Christianity, they brought many of their favorite customs with them. "The pagan [winter festivals of the] Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence... The pagan festival with its riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit or in manner... Christians of Mesopotamia accused their western brethren of idolatry and sun-worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival. Yet the festival rapidly gained acceptance and became at last so firmly entrenched that even the Protestant revolution of the sixteenth century was not able to dislodge it..." (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Volume III, article "Christmas.") You see this going on in churches today. Churches are constantly recruiting new members from other denominations and they often bring some aspect of their previous church to the new one. If you notice, many Christians today celebrate the Roman Catholic tradition of Lent. Historically, Lent, was not celebrated by Protestant churches.

Most people acknowledge that Christmas was moved, not created in the 4th Century. Where does it say it was being created?

Also, how does this answer the fact Christmas was celebrated before the 4th Century on a variety of dates throughout Christianity until a standard date was determined?

How does the article know it was placed there to displace Sol Invictus, when December 25 follows 9 months after the early Christian celebration on March 25? And that is generally considered the reason for the date being picked?

Second Phoenix · Dec 18, 2013

Ruba said:
What I am saying is that even though Christmas is from a pagan holiday?

It is? Which one?

Second Phoenix · Dec 18, 2013

TRWord said:
Christmas has nothing to do with the birth of Christ and likewise Easter has nothing to do with His death.

How does Christmas have nothing to do with Christ?
I thought Easter was about His resurrection?

RDKirk · Dec 18, 2013

Neogaia777 said:
I'm just curious, and I'm probably not as educated on it as you are, so bear with me please...

But is their anywhere in scripture where it actually specifically says that celebrating birthdays is "forbidden"? I know it has pagan roots, but does God ever say anything specifically against it (birthdays), and if it does, can you tell me "where"?

In ancient times, birthdays primarily had astrological significance and were celebrated in that manner. In fact, they still do--I'll bet you know your own astrological sign. Astrology was forbidden to Jews, and the early Christians carried that on.

The early Church scholar Origen wrote in in the 2nd century that Christians should not only refrain from celebrating their birthdays, but should look on them with disgust.

They believed that only God alone controlled a person's life and destiny--not the stars. Astrology is idolatry with soothsaying.

"You shall not practice divination or soothsaying." (Leviticus 19:26)

With regard to the fact that it has pagan roots:

"When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of the nations. Let no one be found among you who...is an auger, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorceror, one casts spells.....For anyone who does these things is abhorrent to the LORD..." (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

And do you know if any of the OT leaders celebrated or commemorated or gave any gifts (toys & such) to any of their children their birthdays? As, I said I probably don't know as much about it as you do, but/and/so I am only asking?

The only direct scriptural references to birthdays were as celebrated by the pharaoh of Joseph who executed the baker on his birthday and King Herod who executed John the Baptist on his birthday.

There are no "good" references of birthday commemorations in scripture.

Neogaia777 · Dec 19, 2013

RDKirk said:
In ancient times, birthdays primarily had astrological significance and were celebrated in that manner. In fact, they still do--I'll bet you know your own astrological sign. Astrology was forbidden to Jews, and the early Christians carried that on.

The early Church scholar Origen wrote in in the 2nd century that Christians should not only refrain from celebrating their birthdays, but should look on them with disgust.

They believed that only God alone controlled a person's life and destiny--not the stars. Astrology is idolatry with soothsaying.

"You shall not practice divination or soothsaying." (Leviticus 19:26)

With regard to the fact that it has pagan roots:

"When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of the nations. Let no one be found among you who...is an auger, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorceror, one casts spells.....For anyone who does these things is abhorrent to the LORD..." (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

The only direct scriptural references to birthdays were as celebrated by the pharaoh of Joseph who executed the baker on his birthday and King Herod who executed John the Baptist on his birthday.

There are no "good" references of birthday commemorations in scripture.

But, and if you will be patient with me... We don't don't celebrate birthdays today based on pagan roots such as astrology, divining and the like, we simply do it to commemorate the day of ones being born (brought into the world) and not for those other pagan reasons that it used to mean, Do you think God will be forgiving toward us, (in for those who celebrate it) based upon these "changed" reasons?

mesue · Dec 19, 2013

tanzel said:
...

Some may say, "It does not matter when He was born. I am just celebrating His birth."; whereas others may say "Jesus is the reason for the season." Is that really the case? If Jesus is the reason for the season, then why didn't He let us know when to celebrate his birth? We claim we love Jesus so much but why don't we observe his death as he commanded us. Luke 22:19, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and break it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

...

I think that the whole purpose to honor and celebrate Christmas is to celebrate the gift that Jesus left His throne in Heaven to come to Earth as a man. I don't believe Jesus was born on what we now call Christmas. We don't have the exact day. I think, and I have no evidence what so ever to support this, that Jesus was born between July 23 to August 22. This is the time of year that the zodiac sign of Leo is. I only think this because Jesus is called the Lion of Juda in Revelation 5:5. Otherwise, I got nothing.
I heard a pastor speak about fish. He said that we don't eat the whole fish. We have to remove the scales and bones before we can eat it. To me, the scales and bones are His date of birth. Yes, the scales and bones are a part of the whole fish, but not the reason for catching the fish.
It isn't His birth so much, as it is His conquering of death, that we celebrate. Our sins are forgiven because Jesus paid our sin debt on the Cross of Calvary. The true gift is the gift of salvation. This is truly celebrated in remembrance on Resurrection Sunday.

RDKirk · Dec 19, 2013

Neogaia777 said:
But, and if you will be patient with me... We don't don't celebrate birthdays today based on pagan roots such as astrology, divining and the like, we simply do it to commemorate the day of ones being born (brought into the world) and not for those other pagan reasons that it used to mean, Do you think God will be forgiving toward us, (in for those who celebrate it) based upon these "changed" reasons?

And so...from a Christian viewpoint, where have those celebrations gone, and where where they supposed to go?

"I was born. Yay for me!"

"You were born. Yay for you!"

From a Christian point of view, exactly why is it a day for repeated celebration?

How about a day of celebrating one's second birth? Scripture tells us that the angels in heaven celebrate that one.

BryanW92 · Dec 19, 2013

RDKirk said:
And so...from a Christian viewpoint, where have those celebrations gone, and where where they supposed to go?

"I was born. Yay for me!"

"You were born. Yay for you!"

From a Christian point of view, exactly why is it a day for repeated celebration?

How about a day of celebrating one's second birth? Scripture tells us that the angels in heaven celebrate that one.

Is God going to revoke a person's salvation for celebrating a birthday?

Neogaia777 · Dec 19, 2013

BryanW92 said:
Is God going to revoke a person's salvation for celebrating a birthday?

That's my question too?

mesue · Dec 19, 2013

God doesn't revoke salvation.

RickardoHolmes · Dec 19, 2013

As I said before, it is strictly a personal decision. I celebrate it as a spiritual holiday and have had many mystical experiences at Christmas. I celebrate it because it is right and successful for me to do so.

As for those who do not celebrate it, then that is their choice.
The only conflict has risen when others have tried, and failed, to stop me from celebrating it.

I do not force it onto others, and I will not allows others to interfere with my celebration of it.

RDKirk · Dec 19, 2013

BryanW92 said:
Is God going to revoke a person's salvation for celebrating a birthday?

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. - 1 Corinthians 10

"Is x a sin?" is the wrong question. "Will I lose my salvation?" is the wrong question.

The correct questions are, "Is x profitable?" "Will x edify?"

Asking "Is x a sin?" is the same mistake the one-talent steward made. He was trying so hard not to do the sinful thing that he failed to understand he needed to do the righteous thing.

He was looking only at the sin, but looking at the sin does not lead you to the righteous. That's why Jesus said we must surpass the "righteousness of the Pharisees," because the Pharisees were only avoiding the "thou shalt nots" and never getting to the weightier matters of the "thou shalts."

When I was an avid bicylist, I learned this lesson: Don't focus on the obstacle, focus on the path around the obstacle.

The question to ask is: "Is this profitable to the Lord for me to spend my time (that is, His time) in this pursuit? Does it edify my walk with the Lord? Does it build me up as a Christian? Does it build anyone else up as a Christian? Does it forward the gospel?"

If the Holy Spirit has put the question into your head, and if the answer to "Is it profitable?" is "No," then you should know what to do after that.

BryanW92 · Dec 19, 2013

RDKirk said:
The correct questions are, "Is x profitable?" "Will x edify?"

That is true, but you have to look at the meaning of "profitable" and "edify". God wants us to live a happy and joy-filled life. What you describe is a puritan lifestyle, where are minute of every day, you must be doing something profitable or edifying as defined by someone else who looks at you disapprovingly.

Celebrating a birthday is not defined as a sin or an abomination. It is just a reason to be happy for something. It is a reason to be happy for someone else. That is edifying in itself.

Christians who demand that all the fun be taken out of a person's life or they are somehow less of a Christian need to lighten up.

You say that "Is x a sin?" and "Will x take away my salvation?" are wrong questions. I say that they aren't. They certainly aren't the only questions, but they are a good "go-no go" test. Having a birthday party might not be as edifying or profitable as starting a soup kitchen or taking the Gospel to a tribe in the Amazon, but its not wrong either.

BryanW92 · Dec 19, 2013

mesue said:
God doesn't revoke salvation.

That was the point that I was making.

Neogaia777 · Dec 19, 2013

RDKirk said:
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. - 1 Corinthians 10

"Is x a sin?" is the wrong question. "Will I lose my salvation?" is the wrong question.

The correct questions are, "Is x profitable?" "Will x edify?"

Asking "Is x a sin?" is the same mistake the one-talent steward made. He was trying so hard not to do the sinful thing that he failed to understand he needed to do the righteous thing.

He was looking only at the sin, but looking at the sin does not lead you to the righteous. That's why Jesus said we must surpass the "righteousness of the Pharisees," because the Pharisees were only avoiding the "thou shalt nots" and never getting to the weightier matters of the "thou shalts."

When I was an avid bicylist, I learned this lesson: Don't focus on the obstacle, focus on the path around the obstacle.

The question to ask is: "Is this profitable to the Lord for me to spend my time (that is, His time) in this pursuit? Does it edify my walk with the Lord? Does it build me up as a Christian? Does it build anyone else up as a Christian? Does it forward the gospel?"

If the Holy Spirit has put the question into your head, and if the answer to "Is it profitable?" is "No," then you should know what to do after that.

If the Holy Spirit has put the question into your head, and if the answer to "Is it profitable?" is "No," then you should know what to do after that.

For me the answer is "yes", so what does that say about me?

RDKirk · Dec 19, 2013

Neogaia777 said:
If the Holy Spirit has put the question into your head, and if the answer to "Is it profitable?" is "No," then you should know what to do after that.

For me the answer is "yes", so what does that say about me?

See Romans 14.

mesue · Dec 19, 2013

BryanW92 said:
That was the point that I was making.

*shameful truth*

I didn't read the whole thread, just most of it.

RDKirk · Dec 19, 2013

BryanW92 said:
That is true, but you have to look at the meaning of "profitable" and "edify". God wants us to live a happy and joy-filled life. What you describe is a puritan lifestyle, where are minute of every day, you must be doing something profitable or edifying as defined by someone else who looks at you disapprovingly.

Celebrating a birthday is not defined as a sin or an abomination. It is just a reason to be happy for something. It is a reason to be happy for someone else. That is edifying in itself.

Christians who demand that all the fun be taken out of a person's life or they are somehow less of a Christian need to lighten up.

I did not identify any particular lifestyle, unless you're saying that living a life in devotion to Jesus--as Paul did--is automatically one that is unsatisfying.

I did not say that celebrating a birthday was a sin. I said it should be evaluated as we are stewards of a resource owned by Jesus--our very bodies--and as they are Jesus' resources, they are to be used for His purposes.

For we are not our own masters when we live or when we die. While we live, we live to please the Lord. And when we die, we go to be with the Lord. So in life and in death, we belong to the Lord. -- Romans 14

You say that "Is x a sin?" and "Will x take away my salvation?" are wrong questions. I say that they aren't. They certainly aren't the only questions, but they are a good "go-no go" test. Having a birthday party might not be as edifying or profitable as starting a soup kitchen or taking the Gospel to a tribe in the Amazon, but its not wrong either.

Asking "Is x a sin?" is the same thing as depending on the "written code:"

Having canceled the written code, with its regulations,http://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/passage.aspx?q=colossians+2:14-17#cr-descriptionAnchor-1 that was against us and that stood opposed to us; [Jesus] took it away, nailing it to the cross. -- Colossians 2

Why ask the Lord for more written code when He has cancelled it?

Rather, we should be going in this direction:

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. -- Romans 12

This is "putting on the mind of Christ" so that in all the circumstances for which there was never a law anyway (which is why the Pharisees needed a Talmud in addition to the Law), we yet know what God's will is because we are judging the circumstances with the mind of Christ.

BryanW92 · Dec 19, 2013

RDKirk said:
I did not identify any particular lifestyle, unless you're saying that living a life in devotion to Jesus--as Paul did--is automatically one that is unsatisfying.

I did not say that celebrating a birthday was a sin. I said it should be evaluated as we are stewards of a resource owned by Jesus--our very bodies--and as they are Jesus' resources, they are to be used for His purposes.

Very true. Celebrating a birthday does not "take resources" from Jesus.

RDKirk said:
Why ask the Lord for more written code when He has cancelled it?

You are twisting my words. I am favoring less regulation and restriction. You are the one who is using legalism to restrict what people "should" be doing.

RDKirk said:
Rather, we should be going in this direction:

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. -- Romans 12

This is "putting on the mind of Christ" so that in all the circumstances for which there was never a law anyway (which is why the Pharisees needed a Talmud in addition to the Law), we yet know what God's will is because we are judging the circumstances with the mind of Christ.

Then, you can choose to not celebrate anything and I can choose to celebrate because we have both "tested".

It is not your place to tell anyone to not celebrate.

As Christian, SHOULD CHRISTMAS BE CELEBRATED OR REJECTED,YOU DECIDE!

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