My problem with Christianity

We'll I've elaborated in this thread a few times but I understand. I was using the picture because I think it does sum it up for me. I am aware that my position isn't reflected by our government's legislation.

This my post to Damian, maybe this will help you see more what I am saying

Well the issue isn't so much that they choose one or the other, the picture implies that they are being taught very destructive ideas at an age when they are not capable of managing them.

It's saying that these children are not capable of defending their selves against these ideas at that age and so it's abusive because it damages their life and at that age they can't defend themselves against it. I know that sounds harsh and I'm not trying to argue that it's true, I'm just trying to describe the intent of the picture to you.

It's a lot like how you might feel if I trained a child to hate Jesus from an early age, you would probably feel that that was very wrong because at that age they don't have the ability to manage it for themselves.

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I wouldn't call you a jerk if you tried to explain yourself and you were honest. There are many forms of abuse that aren't in legislation. We are not discussing laws. Emotional abuse isn't against the law but its very destructive.

When I said ideas are destructive I was referring to the OP, the ideas represented in the picture. As I said to damian I am not so much trying to prove anything but rather see how you feel about the picture. The picture implies that these ideas damage a child's happiness, self esteem, competence, ability to operate in the real world etc. These implied dangers are things that must be managed.

Your response seems to be that the picture is completely unrealistic, that's fine, thanks for posting.

KarateCowboy said:

When i read that verse I generally think of child like as sincere, not cynical, caring. Kids are not caught up in the rat race. They have not been burned and hence become callus toward the suffering and wrong in the world. They haven't developed obsessions with money or other things. Etc.

Regarding your OP, I don't see how it's abuse to point out man's broken state and how people do wrong to each other. Even little kids see people doing wrong and want to know why.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Forum Runner. Pardon my brevity and spelling.

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So you seem to believe the statements in the picture are true. Alright.

Thanks for responding.

KarateCowboy said:

You're very welcome.

In more detail, I'd say those statements are far truer for adults than kids. The whole 'become like children' sentiment runs on parallel with the notion that kids are a clean slate but adults are the ones banged up and broken from life.
So, it's a good thing to point out to kids that people are broken if you're preparing those kids for adulthood. If you're telling them that with the intent of breaking those kids and lording those things over them then it's bad. Makes me think back to my catholic school days.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Forum Runner. Pardon my brevity and spelling.

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Right, if those statements are true then at some point children need to learn the truth of them, but truth can always be misused, you can tell a person the truth in order to embarrass them, hurt them, shame them, silence them etc. I understand.

AlexBP

Let me put it this way and you may understand a little better if you don't already.

I have two wonderful little girls, they are 5 and 3 years old, the sweetest little girls you'll ever meet.

I refuse to stand by and let anyone train those innocent little girls to believe that they are broken, inherently evil things that cannot ever accomplish anything on their own, that are not worthy to ever be anything on their own or even worthy to be alive and unless they are redeemed they must be destroyed and that they are not entitled or able to ever find their own way. I won't stand for it. I will do everything in my power to see that they grow up to be as free and as happy and independent and glorious as they really are. If I have my way they will never ask a god forgive them of sin so that they can gain a right to live or survive. They will never accept the lie that they are evil broken things who must be forgiven or destroyed and become a mindless slave who is never entitled to think or feel for their selves.

Andrea411 said:

Parents who embarrass, shame, hurt and or abuse their children are not raising their children according to scripture. Jesus was very kind and loving to children in a world where a child was a piece of property that parents were legally allowed to abuse, kill or sell….. there are certainly Christians who abuse their children but it is not bc of scripture. There are many more parents who abuse their children who are not Christian.
1 in 6 girls will be sexually abused before the age of 6 and 1 in 9 boys… there is no shortage of abused children and child abusers may attend church, some may well be Christian but it is still not scriptural.
Even the "spare the rod spoil the child" is not supposed to mean beat the child. The good shepherd does not beat the sheep… they will not come back to him.
I raise goats… if I were to beat them I would lose the very little control I have over them. The rod is for guiding, a whack now and then to teach them to stay with the herd, but not for beating…. "my sheep hear my voice" - not my sheep fear my voice….
God bless, andrea

PS: the incidence of sexual abuse within the church is due to the easy access of children from ignorant parents who bc they couldn't imagine doing that… trust strangers they perceive as good people with their children. Pedophiles go to church to find children, they are not there to find God. It also explains the high incidence within Boy Scouts and at summer camps…. adults who want to work with children are most often good people wanting to encourage children, but pedophiles act like good people… and they will swear they love children.

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I think I once had a sexual predator stalk me when I was a teenager in church as well, thankfully I did not take a ride in his car or the invitation to visit him like he wanted me too.

I understand, people use truth to hurt others all the time really. You see here on these forums a lot actually. Someone displays a fact for the soul purpose of making someone look stupid, or to make them shut up and leave, they provide quotes, facts, evidence and they indulge so heavily. Social cannibals, they love the spotlight and their ability to master the less experienced person on the forum or in the discussion, they provide truths but it's only for the purpose of self indulging or to strike at others.

I like how Paul the apostle said his people were not ready for meat, they still needed milk so there were things he did not yet teach them. Things they needed to know, truths they had not heard, ideas they weren't ready to mature into... and he didn't teach them these truths because they were not ready to hear it, they were truths that presently served no good purpose.

edit:

1 Cor 3

oh man! That brings to mind my all time fave chapter in the bible

James 3.13-18
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.


James teaches us that wisdom is far different than simple truth. James said true wisdom is something seen in your conduct, not the veracity of your statements. Truth can be twisted and used to destroy a person. But wisdom is always pure and it is always gentle, it is always peaceable and it is OPEN TO REASON. Wisdom never says "this is how it is and we cannot consider any further" you cannot use truths to bring a period to the discussion. So many people try to use truths for the purpose of ending discussions, ending pursuits of knowledge, closing off consideration but that's not what wisdom does, wisdom reasons, it considers, it is always reasoning and lastly a harvest of righteousness is never sown in strife, by force, by painful truths... only through peace will righteousness come. So these zealots who fight the war of truth, slashing down their reasoning opponents, for the sake of the truth... well that doesn't work. Forming villains out of people who simply disagree with you makes it impossible to ever change them (a self fulfilling prophecy)

AlexBP

In my jurisdiction, emotional abuse is a matter of law. I'm a teacher, so I have to go through thorough training on the question of what is and isn't child abuse. What you claim to be abuse is not, in fact, abuse.

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I told you we aren't discussing laws.

The picture offers no evidence to back those claims up.

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and I've stated that I did not intend to prove anything.

Andrea411 said:

Wise words and great scripture. Thank you.
I spent a lot of time on CARM… awful place. The heresy hunters are allowed to go free while the atheists or Charismatics, people of faith but at odds theologically are dissected and suspended for even daring to speak their personal truth.
I am a Charismatic, annihilist, and an egalitarian. So I was a good target. I thought if I could just let them see that if their arguments are correct, then you have to make them palatable…. then maybe I could hear them but NO… it is so much ego but of course I learned a lot. Unfortunately, it was that even professing Christians are mean, selfish, egotistical etc etc… you know the list. But I remember being in church and fully in worship and having this image of His great love for us… these people are His body and the decrepit group of hypocrites and liars that so many of us are…. it is wonderful when you know He already knows the real you…. and still loves you.
You can only imagine, I don't always fit well in a church group. But I have a large group of friends from various denominations (all Spirit-filled) that I fellowship with regularly. I get to see the real them, the real struggles, divorces, addictions, adulteries, the very real lives of very committed Christians. Many have truly overcome and are walking in faith, demonstrating the transformational life… many are on the path… struggling.
The most difficult challenge I face are the legalists who chomp on unbelievers or people of very weak faith, some facing addictions or sexual promiscuity etc. They test my faith and my walk…. to love them. I find it easier to love a hooker then a heresy hunter. LOL. But I am always reminded, I have been on a path, changing, being conformed into His image and it wasn't always a pretty sight. The Lord gave me a vision, of someone who was walking on a path, falling, stumbling, getting muddy and bruised, sometimes bc I was looking up at Him, but knowing that as long as I kept my eyes on Him, He would be faithful to keep me from falling off the path. 31 years…. and so they are on a path…. I encourage them to keep looking at Jesus too. They are no different, no more or less loved, just a different path to the same destination.
I pray you find His path and the great love He has for you…. God bless and Merry Christmas, andrea

PS: scientific site that addresses evolution. I think its a very reasonable site you may like

Reasons To Believe : Crossed off the List: Is the Cross Shape of Laminin Evidence for the Creator?

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Yeah the heresy hunters as you call them are annoying, but it's the easy choice I think. It's the easiest thing to be. It doesn't require that you reflect any part of yourself in your post, it doesn't require that you rely on anything except authority, it doesn't require that you care anything about the person that you are talking to, it doesn't require that you do or give or be anything.

So many people mistake being right, for being good.

Confucius taught that morality is not contain or gained in the mind, it is not the product of correct thinking, having a correct thought is not what makes a person good. Morality always involves other people, morality is a description of how you treat people, and nothing else can truly display it, its things you do. But people who become obsessed or so simplified with having correct thoughts begin to become blinded and begin to believe that being correct is being good and it isn't. This is one of the reasons I object to Christianity because Jesus demands that people first and foremost... believe in him. That thought, that assumption, that agreement determines a persons morality and I can't fathom how it ever could.

and that's how heresy hunters find a value in their life, they think that if they can prove that they think correctly that they have some goodness, some value, some legitimacy but it couldn't be more misdirected. Morality and goodness concerns how you treat people, not whether the thoughts inside your head that aren't even tangible, moving, active things are correct or incorrect, logical or illogical. But it's so vain, so impotent all they provide to the world can be contained within the few scare inches of their brain and never demands to leave that small space, never begins to become something outside of their body that contributes to our world.

But crushing the weaker person with facts or ideas is the easiest thing to do, especially the younger they are and sadly especially the better than they are. The softer the heart that vulnerable person has, the more that person willing to strip mine their already wounded heart to be as good as they long to be and this just makes them easier victims. They come with wounded hearts asking for help and they open their selves up because they've accepted that they need to and the heresy hunter comes along and just slams them as hard as they can, the weak person is sometimes too inexperienced to understand whats happened, or they can be so depressed and down trodden that they don't believe they are entitled to object.