Nailing down the timing of Yeshua's birth.

show me the law in Torah that forbids celebrating a birthday. Quoting the traitor and liar Josephus is no proof to truth. How many did you say 613 see if any of those 613 say thou shalt not celebrate your birthday.. I do feel sorry for you. I wish I could help. celebrating is not even the issue the issue was would they have known He was not yet 50 rather than not yet 40 or not yet 30 celebrating vs knowing is your invention to hide a deficiency in your education by saying but Jews did not their birthdays or something on that line in an earlier post, and did so to try to lessen the impact of the fact they said... thou art not yet 50 years old.

Could you leave the red herrings in the swamp please and deal with ...thou art not 50 years old.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I didn't say the didn't know how old they were. I said that they did not celebrate birthdays. It has nothing to do with "academic research", it is historical fact...

The Encyclopedia Judaica could not be more blunt: "The celebration of birthdays is unknown in traditional Jewish ritual." In fact, it says, the only birthday party mentioned in the Torah is for Pharaoh! (Genesis 40:20).

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Yes, Two tyrant, one a Gentile heathen who thought he was G-d, and the other an imposter Jew who wanted to be G-d.

Both of their 'parties' ended in blood, one hung, one decapitated. That is enough to put Jews off celebrating Birthdays. But that doesn't mean accounting was not made of how old a person was, it was needed for men especially in the priesthood to know how long the service in the tabernacle/temple was to last. I think it also had to do with men at war too, but I may be wrong on that one.

Birthdays are birthdays but the celebrations as mentioned in the bible are pagan.

Lulav said:

But that doesn't mean accounting was not made of how old a person was, it was needed for men especially in the priesthood to know how long the service in the tabernacle/temple was to last.

Birthdays are birthdays but the celebrations as mentioned in the bible are pagan.

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Yes Lulav, that was my point to Thomas, but I guess his "academic education" got in the way This is well known.

Thomas L Cossette said:

celebrating is not even the issue the issue was would they have known He was not yet 50 rather than not yet 40 or not yet 30 celebrating vs knowing is your invention to hide a deficiency in your education by saying but Jews did not their birthdays or something on that line in an earlier post, and did so to try to lessen the impact of the fact they said... thou art not yet 50 years old.

Could you leave the red herrings in the swamp please and deal with ...thou art not 50 years old.

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You ARE a red herring! The issue WE are debating is if Jews in that time CELEBRATED birthdays, not if they knew how old they were. Please pay attention...

Thomas L Cossette said:

I do feel sorry for you....I wish I could help.... knowing is your invention to hide a deficiency in your education...Could you leave the red herrings in the swamp please...

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I guess I got to keep reminding Mr Cossette:

Again, you deeply drink from this well: Especially "informal fallacies", those are your favorites!

List of fallacies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Post #133 proves you talk with a twisted tongue out both sides of your mouth there you claim they did not remember birth days only days of death, your intent was to lessen the impact of Thou art not yet 50 years old. I refer any one to your own words follow forward and see how you red herring legitimate facts. God judges all and he will not be kind to those who frustrate the dissemination of truth.

I noticed you or any one else have not found in Torah of the 613 thou shalt not celebrate the birthdays of your children or yourselves.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Yes Lulav, that was my point to Thomas, but I guess his "academic education" got in the way This is well known.

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Ok, I was just supporting what you said.

Thomas L Cossette said:

Post #133 proves you talk with a twisted tongue out both sides of your mouth there you claim they did not remember birth days only days of death, your intent was to lessen the impact of Thou art not yet 50 years old. I refer any one to your own words follow forward and see how you red herring legitimate facts. God judges all and he will not be kind to those who frustrate the dissemination of truth.

I noticed you or any one else have not found in Torah of the 613 thou shalt not celebrate the birthdays of your children or yourselves.

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Thomas, there is a reference in the Torah, it speaks to not doing things the way the heathens do, it falls under idolatry.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

All the Priestly courses also served on all three appointed Feasts...Passover, Shavout and Sukkot.

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All of them served, but no courses were skipped. The order of the courses continued even in the feasts.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The Encyclopedia Judaica could not be more blunt: "The celebration of birthdays is unknown in traditional Jewish ritual." In fact, it says, the only birthday party mentioned in the Torah is for Pharaoh! (Genesis 40:20).

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If I may say,

One must be more detailed in research than going to Encylopedia Judaica (which has had other things Jews disagree with) when it comes to historical reference and scripture.


With things such as Job 1:4, with Job celebrating the birthdays of his children and having feasts, most commentators regard these feasts as birthday festivities. ....Each son in his turn, when his birthday arrived, entertained his six brothers. Others think that each of the seven brothers had his own special day of the week on which, he received his brothers at his table, so that the feasting was continuous. But this scarcely suits the context. And it is admitted that "his day" (in Job 3:1) means "his birthday." The celebration of birthdays by means of a feast was a very widespread custom in the East.

On Job 1:5 - where it notes "And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about; rather, when the days of the feasting had come round; i.e. whenever one of the birthdays had arrived in due course, and the feasting had taken place. That Job sent and sanctified them."


In the old world, outside the Mosaic Law, the father of the family was the priest, to whom alone it belonged to bless, purify, and offer sacrifice. Job, after each birthday-feast, sent for his sons, and purified them by the accustomed ablutions, or possibly by some other ceremonial process, regarding it as probable that, in the course of their feasting, they had contracted some defilement.

Scripture with Scripture....Shalom




Some of this was discussed before, as seen here:

Thomas, there is a reference in the Torah, it speaks to not doing things the way the heathens do, it falls under idolatry.[/QUOTE]

Lulav

Really that is way, way, to vague even if that was the issue! but it is not! the issue is why would the authorities in Jerusalem say thou art not yet 50 years old. Did you read post #133 with all the dates for the empire wide census the only one that could work is 12B.C. any time after 4B.C. can not be because Herod is dead. the last of the censuses was 12 A.D. done by Augustus the first of the three is 27 B.C So the only one that fits if your going to use Luke's Gospel for timing when Yeshua is born is the middle census in 12B.C in that year Quirinius became military governor of Syria. He did not become civil governor of Syria until 6 A.D so the only census that fits is the 12 B.C. which makes the rest of Luke's narration out of wack. That is why I cautioned Visionary for using Luke to pin down the year of Yeshua birth. But it gives weight to John's thou art not yet 50 years old. It says in Lukes narration that this all happened in the "time of Herod the king" but if that is the case Yeshua could not add been 30 years old in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius.
Nothing in Luke added up if you try to use Quirinius as civil governor in 29 AD the 15th year Tiberius that would make Yeshua 23 not 30 closer to 20 than 30 and Mary would have been pregnant for 10 years.

By the way before take everything in Encyclopedia Judaic as gospel read what it says about Yeshua and then tell me everything in that encyclopedia is fact if it is all fact then your wasting your time being a messianic believer.

Now since you all want to turn your heads and close your eyes from the important facts and chase red herrings, and use your above quote as evidence that Torah was against observing birthdays, heathen eat off of plates so eating off of plates is idolatry? Heathens herd sheep, is herding sheep idolatry. heathens plant fruit trees are fruits trees idolatry? Yeshua condemn the authorities for making traditions of men doctrine i.e. law. Do you get the point. It not the birthday it is how you keep it.

If the law is so specific that is says thou shalt not plow a field with an ox and a donkey yoked together...or thou shalt not wear a shirt made with mixed fibers ....or thou shalt not plant an apple and a pear tree next to each other. the pears tree will be in one section and the apples in another. If the Law says thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother milk. I think the Law would have said thou shalt not observe your birthdays. But if that were the case how would Jacob know his age before pharaoh?, how would a priest know when to serve in the temple? and if they celebrated his coming of age to serve in temple he has broken Torah? please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know hundreds of Jews everyone celebrate birthdays. Just as Jobs sons did. why not read Gxg post.

I told Yahweh I am not cut out for this, I do not suffer fools and those that follow fools, I do not have the patients to deal with them. But here I am trying my best not to lose my patients it is not theology needed taught here it is common sense.

Interesting back and forth.

I enjoy reading this whole thread.

I agree that Torah never said to, and none of the Patriarchs did.

The Most High seemed to number and bear witness to age and years,
but no celebration seems to be recorded, other than what was possibly
stated in Job.

Shalom
Yosef

Thomas L Cossette said:

Post #133 proves you talk with a twisted tongue out both sides of your mouth there you claim they did not remember birth days only days of death, your intent was to lessen the impact of Thou art not yet 50 years old. I refer any one to your own words follow forward and see how you red herring legitimate facts.

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Here is my post:
I already said my view on the subject. The "star" could have just been a miracle. However, since the "magi" were "astronomers" of sort, then they likely would have known of certain alignments/conjunctions that occurred. Yeah, the not yet 50 statement is interesting. I would have thought 40. Jews of that time did not celebrate/remember dates of birth but dates of death...

How am I talking with a twisted tongue? I said that it was interesting that they said "not yet 50". I think you are maybe making a mountain out of a mole hill. They could have said 100. What is the difference. They were shocked with his claim about Abraham. So you think they knew exactly how old He was? That was my point. Abraham lived 100s of years before Christ. Maybe 50 then was a certain age or point of reference for being old. Maybe they are saying, "you are not even old yet" and you are making these claims? Maybe this has some reference on it:

Numbers 4:3 "from a son of thirty years and upward, even until fifty years old, all that enter upon the service, to do work in the tabernacle of the congregation."

You seem to want everyone to fall down in front of you and believe whatever you say. If not, then you belittle them and say they must not follow God. Well YOU do not get to make those decisions...

Thomas L Cossette said:

By the way before take everything in Encyclopedia Judaic as gospel read what it says about Yeshua and then tell me everything in that encyclopedia is fact if it is all fact then your wasting your time being a messianic believer.

I told Yahweh I am not cut out for this, I do not suffer fools and those that follow fools, I do not have the patients to deal with them. But here I am trying my best not to lose my patients it is not theology needed taught here it is common sense.

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See, there you go again! ...before....then....if....then. Setting up those fallicies.

My point was that at that time, not now in 2013, birthday celebrations among JEWS was uncommon. Pagans at that time celebrated birthdays as Lulav said. Ask God why you think you can teach by belittling people and putting into question their faith to the God you say you talk to just because they disagree with you...THAT would be common sense.

wow read what you just wrote you cannot even make your own synapse to connect. Done with you. What I have said is only 12 B.C. can be mathematically used and have a true witness and when done the authorities saying thou are not yet 50 is accurate. It is a physical impossibility any other way.

You are the one that turned it into a debate over celebrating or recording or observing a birthday and you have done so, to do your best to keep people from discovering the true witness in the gospel narratives. and have done so to protect a lying testimony.

Thomas L Cossette said:

wow read what you just wrote you cannot even make your own synapse to connect. Done with you. What I have said is only 12 B.C. can be mathematically used and have a true witness and when done the authorities saying thou are not yet 50 is accurate. It is a physical impossibility any other way.

You are the one that turned it into a debate over celebrating or recording or observing a birthday and you have done so, to do your best to keep people from discovering the true witness in the gospel narratives. and have done so to protect a lying testimony.

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Are you so weak in your belief that you think I am trying to protect "lying testimony" LOL (whatever that means)? This is not an issue to me, it was just a discussion. You blew it up into something it wasn't. Miracles are "physical impossibilities" Thomas. There are miracles throughout the Bible. Stop trying to explain everything. I really do not know what your deal is nor, because of you rudeness, do I care. It was a discussion on opinions...yours, mine and others here. You have made it into your own personal vendetta. Also, try to stop with the illogical fallicies...they really are tiresome and people can see right through them.

miracles do not lie, if numbers worked it would be a plausible truth. If the numbers do not work calling it a miracle is stupid.

If we go with Quirinius becoming civil governor in 6A.D. and use the census that happen in that time frame in 12 A.D. in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Yeshua would have been 17 years old. Not 30

If we go with when Quirinius was military governor and the census that took place in that time frame in 12 B.C. that would make Yeshua 41 in the 15th year of Tiberius not 30 and 44 1/2 years old when the authorities said thou are not yet 50 years.

Since we know the same person that wrote Luke also wrote Acts and in Acts it says 75 souls went down to Egypt with Jacob rather than 70 as the scriptures say, is this errant number of 75 also a miracle?

When a testimony does not match with the facts its called a lie, not a miracle. I could only imagine what would happen if any of you promised someone a pledge and when you don't deliver, and they called you on it. As an answer, you would throw your hands into the air and exclaim its a miracle! I am sure someone has done so. I have just seen it. Through it sounds like a scene out some comedy.

If Yeshua and John were cousins and the these events found in Luke version about their births were true you would think annually at Passover, Shavout, and Sukkot they would again and again and again tell these two while they grew up about the event when John jumped for joy in his mothers womb at the approach of Yeshua in Mary's belly, you would think this would be so ingrained into these two lives.

But in John's Gospel, John the Baptizers said not once but twice he did not know who the Messiah would be and how to recognize him. And God said the one whom you see the Spirit descend on as a dove that is the man. Think about according to Luke he knew before birth, and grew up with him or at the least saw him three times a year. Yet John's gospel says he did not even know how to recognize him.

I am just presenting hard testimonies and solid numbers, true or false is determined by whether they add up.

I write this not as an answer, retort or rebuttal to Haderekh I write this for all that have followed this thread. who love and seek out truth knowing no lie is of the truth.

According to an ancient Chinese astrological chart there was a comet seen in September 4BC.

In September 4B.C. Herod was already dead.

Thomas L Cossette said:

miracles do not lie, if numbers worked it would be a plausible truth. If the numbers do not work calling it a miracle is stupid.

If we go with Quirinius becoming civil governor in 6A.D. and use the census that happen in that time frame in 12 A.D. in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Yeshua would have been 17 years old. Not 30

If we go with when Quirinius was military governor and the census that took place in that time frame in 12 B.C. that would make Yeshua 41 in the 15th year of Tiberius not 30 and 44 1/2 years old when the authorities said thou are not yet 50 years.

Since we know the same person that wrote Luke also wrote Acts and in Acts it says 75 souls went down to Egypt with Jacob rather than 70 as the scriptures say, is this errant number of 75 also a miracle?

When a testimony does not match with the facts its called a lie, not a miracle. I could only imagine what would happen if any of you promised someone a pledge and when you don't deliver, and they called you on it. As an answer, you would throw your hands into the air and exclaim its a miracle! I am sure someone has done so. I have just seen it. Through it sounds like a scene out some comedy.

If Yeshua and John were cousins and the these events found in Luke version about their births were true you would think annually at Passover, Shavout, and Sukkot they would again and again and again tell these two while they grew up about the event when John jumped for joy in his mothers womb at the approach of Yeshua in Mary's belly, you would think this would be so ingrained into these two lives.

But in John's Gospel, John the Baptizers said not once but twice he did not know who the Messiah would be and how to recognize him. And God said the one whom you see the Spirit descend on as a dove that is the man. Think about according to Luke he knew before birth, and grew up with him or at the least saw him three times a year. Yet John's gospel says he did not even know how to recognize him.

I am just presenting hard testimonies and solid numbers, true or false is determined by whether they add up.

I write this not as an answer, retort or rebuttal to Haderekh I write this for all that have followed this thread. who love and seek out truth knowing no lie is of the truth.

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Miracles happen when they happen. What I meant was the star appearing. What is stupid is saying that miracles have to follow any format. Now that is quite different than saying that Luke's gospel does not fit. I am trying to figure out if you only accept John and do not accept Luke. However, you have been arguing about Luke and trying to fit a historical timeline of events to prove Luke and Yeshua's age. So which is it? Why is this SOOO important to you. You seem obsessed with it.