Future restoration of the 12 tribes of Israel in the land of Israel

ebedmelech

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Response continued...

As Romans 11:18 warned believers not to be arrogant towards “the root” of the olive tree, (Israel). One must understand that “salvation is of the Jews” as our Lord stated in John 4:22:

22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

The Jews are the reason for salvation! Believers must never forget that!
God chose to reveal Himself to the world through the Jews, and Christ was born of Jewish descent as the "God Man"!


Paul continues to explain this in Romans 11:19-21, where he states even though “the branches” (Israel), were broken off, it was so that Gentiles could be grafted in! Romans 11:19-21:

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right,they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Two points are in this example of Gentiles being “grafted in”:

1. The Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree (Israel), MAKES THEM PART OF THE OLIVE TREE!!! Paul telling us that spiritually, Jew and Gentile believers are ONE OLIVE TREE!! Therefore the ‘olive tree” being Israel, and Gentiles being “grafted in”, this makes Gentiles part of the “olive tree”, which makes Gentiles part of Israel.

This is THE ISRAEL OF GOD!!! The “grafting in” makes one olive tree.

2. If we believers become arrogant in our salvation (like Israel did) we too could broken off, just as God broke off Israel!

Paul labors to make THE ISRAEL OF GOD clear to us in his other epistles!

In Ephesians 2:14-18 Paul makes the point that this is what Christ did:

14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

Three times Paul stated that Jews and Gentiles are ONE! He tells us our access to God is in ONE SPIRIT!!!


Not only that, Paul also states in Ephesians 2:19-21 that Gentiles are NO LONGER strangers but FELLOW CITIZENS in God’s house, and Gentiles and Jews are being built into “a temple” to God, the foundation being Christ and the apostles:

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Lastly, Paul states Jews and Gentiles are “a dwelling of God in the Spirit”. This is why the Israel of God is a spiritual entity! Paul reveals that this is how God sees believers. We should see it the same way!!!

Other passages that may be referenced:

*Galatians 3:23-29 - Jews and Gentiles are Abraham’s seed, and fellow heirs in Christ.

*Galatians 4:28, 29 - Like Isaac, we are "children of promise".

*Galatians 6:16 - All who walk according to Christ are the “Israel of God”.

*Philippians 3:3 - We are the spiritual circumcision!

*Colossians 2:8 – 15 - We have been spiritually circumcised!

*1 Peter 2:9, 10 - ALL Christians “a chosen generation”.

Paul continues to explain with the “olive tree” example. Romans 11:22-23:

22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


God demonstrated His “kindness” to Gentiles through His severity in turning from Israel. Paul warns us that Gentile believers are to continue in “God’s kindness”, and not become arrogant toward Jews, or we too will be cut off. Paul also states that should “the branches” (Israel), turn from their unbelief, they too will be grafted back into the “olive tree” because God is able to do that.

Paul now reveals that this is a “mystery” God is revealing through him, Romans 11:24,25:

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”


We Gentile believers are the “wild olive tree”; “grafted” into the “cultivated olive tree” (Israel). God has “hardened “ethnic Israel” and is saving the Gentiles! Yet time is coming when God will open the eyes of Israel. Paul quotes Isaiah 59:20, 21 to make the point that God will do it through Christ, “the deliverer”.

Paul continues "the mystery", Romans 11:28-30:


28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake,but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


The gospel is the dividing line between Jews and Gentiles. Jews don’t receive Jesus as their Messiah. However, we Gentiles should understand that God’s promise to “the fathers” (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), will be fulfilled by God because of the covenant that God made with Abraham when He called Him!

God is dealing with Israel as "disobedient children", which has led to Gentiles receiving God’s mercy. Romans 11:30, 31 make that clear:

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

This is God’s sovereignty, and it cannot be understood any other way. Paul stated this earlier in Romans 9:15. There Paul quoted Exodus 33:19 where God speaks to Moses:

19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”

Paul proclaims God’s sovereignty in this, and gives praise to God in all God does:

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Making Jews and Gentiles ONE has been in God’s plan from the beginning! The apostle makes it clear asking the rhetorical question of verse 34, to which the answer is NO ONE can counsel God!

The "Israel of God" is to be understood spiritually! God sees both Jews and Gentiles as ONE, as Peter states in 1 Peter 2:9, 10:

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Those are all the things "ethinc Israel" was when God chose them. However, in turning from Israel after they rejected Christ, God has declared a spiritual Israel, that is to be understood as ALL WHO RECEIVE CHRIST.

This is the “Israel of God”, and we should understand there is NO DIFFERENCE in God’s people whether Jew or Gentile, as Paul declared many times, but specifically in Galatians 3:26-29:

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

That is how I view Romans 11!!!
 
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ebedmelech

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This is what Ive been waiting for..

Ill be back with a comprehensive reply..
Great. I would only ask that if you find disagreement...lets deal with each in peices.

For intstance...if you disagree with Romans 11:1-4, let's work with that before going to anything else.
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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Great. I would only ask that if you find disagreement...lets deal with each in peices.

For intstance...if you disagree with Romans 11:1-4, let's work with that before going to anything else.

Music to my ears lol..

Bare with me..
 
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Interplanner

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To EbedM and ChristP,
re the olive tree. I think it is best if viewed as a 3rd entity. If there are only two entities (Israel and the nations) then the nations will think they are becoming part of the other. Actually, it was one of the mistakes of Israel the nation to assume they were "in" on descendancy alone, or on 'Abraham as their father.' So Israel the nation was not the olive tree; the community of people who had faith was the olive tree. They are listed in Heb 11. Rom 9-11 has many examples of people from the nation who didnt' believe.

Also I have missed EbedM's reasons why "all Israel will be saved" is 1, ethnic, and 2, future. It is a rhetorical statement. The Israel he has been talking about will be saved at the end of the day.

If is all Israel, then it has to be the whole ethnos and all time. Then you have this weird problem of dead Jews being brought to life during the mill so that this statement can be true. If is it just one future generation, or moment, it is automatically not all of them, as we know it. So I prefer to go with the consistent meaning established up to this point: that all the ones who believe their sins are taken away by the Redeemer who already came to Zion will be saved. Paul is using the quote as a done deal just as the other conclusions are a done deal--being bound in sin, and being offered mercy.
 
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ebedmelech

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To EbedM and ChristP,
re the olive tree. I think it is best if viewed as a 3rd entity. If there are only two entities (Israel and the nations) then the nations will think they are becoming part of the other. Actually, it was one of the mistakes of Israel the nation to assume they were "in" on descendancy alone, or on 'Abraham as their father.' So Israel the nation was not the olive tree; the community of people who had faith was the olive tree. They are listed in Heb 11. Rom 9-11 has many examples of people from the nation who didnt' believe.
It cannot. It's Paul that introduces it as a metaphor saying "you. being a wild olive tree" in 11:17...so the metaphor is the Gentiles as the wild olive tree.
Also I have missed EbedM's reasons why "all Israel will be saved" is 1, ethnic, and 2, future. It is a rhetorical statement. The Israel he has been talking about will be saved at the end of the day.
Because the translation is not the best. That is better translated "an so in this way all Israel will be saved".

There are some translations that do that:
Complete Jewish Bible Romans 11:26:
26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved. As the Tanakh says,

NIV Romans 11:26:
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

Holman CSB Romans 11:26:
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

ESV: Romans 11:26:
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
If is all Israel, then it has to be the whole ethnos and all time. Then you have this weird problem of dead Jews being brought to life during the mill so that this statement can be true. If is it just one future generation, or moment, it is automatically not all of them, as we know it. So I prefer to go with the consistent meaning established up to this point: that all the ones who believe their sins are taken away by the Redeemer who already came to Zion will be saved. Paul is using the quote as a done deal just as the other conclusions are a done deal--being bound in sin, and being offered mercy.
It make the point that Jews and Gentiles are all Israel.

If you know someone well educated in Greek they will tell you "in this way all Israel will be saved" is the proper rendering.

I argued with a brother in my class about that verse, only to find the guy is quite fluent in Greek (he's been to seminary, where he took it up)...and he is very good.
 
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shturt678

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xXChristPeripheralXx,

Since you asked for a response...I did a thread titled "The Case For The Israel Of God" in which I gave a response to Biblewriter who had done his thread titled "The True Meaning Of Romans 9-11".

This was my explanation of Romans 11:
In Romans 11:1-4, Paul makes it clear that God has not totally cast off Israel:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 “Lord, they have killed
Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal

It is clear that God didn’t totally turn away from Israel despite their breaking of the Sinaitic Covenant God made with them. Paul further makes the point that he, being a Jew confirms that God has not rejected Israel.

Paul turns to the prophet Elijah to demonstrate this. The story is in 1 Kings 19, Elijah went up against the prophets of Baal, and they were all killed for their idolatry after God answered Elijah by fire and devoured Elijah’s sacrifice. Jezebel threatened to kill Elijah and he became fearful. Elijah complained to God that he was all alone. However God informed Elijah that He had reserved 7000 who were still faithful to Him ( a remnant).

Just making sure on the same page. Rom.11 A remnant is won by faith, eg, Rom.11:5, "a remnant according to an election of grace," ie, Jewish believers that allowed faith to work in them.

Paul now uses that point (the remnant of 7000), to again demonstrate God’s grace and sovereignty:
Romans 11:5, 6:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

The apostle wants us to understand that God is saving a remnant of Jews by His own gracious choice! Paul makes it clear that the remnant is being chosen for nothing they did, but simply by God’s sovereign grace and mercy!

Now Paul explains how God is now dealing with Israel in Romans 11:7:
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Many of Israel didn’t obtain salvation by faith in God. Paul reveals to us that most of Israel has been hardened by God, as a result of their failure, but that a remnant is being saved. He quotes Isaiah 29:10 to make this point! The Isaiah 29 prophecy is one of the destruction of Jerusalem that would come at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar, and also the blinding of Israel as punishment. Romans 11:8:

8 just as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day.”

This is part Israel’s punishment by God. We see it as we read the gospels. Many of Israel could not see nor understand much of the teaching of Christ during His ministry, and Isaiah 29:10 is why. Paul informs us that this was prophesied by Isaiah, and he further points out that David also prophesied it in Psalm 69:22, 23...at Romans 11:9, 10:

9 And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs forever


Paul now focuses on the point that because of Israel’s sin, God granted salvation to the Gentiles, and that God would make Israel jealous because of it! Romans 11:11, 12:

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

A tremendous point is now made by Paul that the Gentiles are part of the fulfillment of Israel. This is the point at which “the Israel of God” becomes very clear. And where many miss that God has SPIRITUAL ISRAEL in mind!!!

Paul now begins to combine Jews and Gentiles as ONE as well as pointing out that through his ministry to the Gentiles, he hopes to cause more Jews to be saved Romans 11:13-15:

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


Paul looks to God’s accepting of the Jews at verse 15. Now at verse 16, Paul begins to help us understand the union of Jews and Gentiles into one using the example of “baking dough” and an “olive tree” in Romans 11:16, 17:

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

This is tremendous as it reveals God’s plan even more! Verse 16 is saying “the first piece of dough” is Israel, the “lump” are the Gentiles. Verse 17 is saying the the “wild olive” is the Gentiles, who have been grafted in to grow from the “rich root of the olive tree, which is Israel. Through this example is the union of Gentiles and Jews into one!

Paul now move to warn the Gentiles not to become prideful by the current situation. Romans 11:18:

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Speaking in fleshly terms, Paul is warning Gentiles (the branches), not to be arrogant towards Jews (the root), because, it is because of the Jews failure that Gentiles have obtained salvation!

We have seen this in church history where Gentile persecute the Jews because of the crucifixion, and it is their ignorance of the scriptures they do this.
continued...

:thumbsup: Same page

Humble pie Jack
 
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shturt678

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To EbedM and ChristP,
re the olive tree. I think it is best if viewed as a 3rd entity. If there are only two entities (Israel and the nations) then the nations will think they are becoming part of the other. Actually, it was one of the mistakes of Israel the nation to assume they were "in" on descendancy alone, or on 'Abraham as their father.' So Israel the nation was not the olive tree; the community of people who had faith was the olive tree. They are listed in Heb 11. Rom 9-11 has many examples of people from the nation who didnt' believe.

Also I have missed EbedM's reasons why "all Israel will be saved" is 1, ethnic, and 2, future. It is a rhetorical statement. The Israel he has been talking about will be saved at the end of the day.

If is all Israel, then it has to be the whole ethnos and all time. Then you have this weird problem of dead Jews being brought to life during the mill so that this statement can be true. If is it just one future generation, or moment, it is automatically not all of them, as we know it. So I prefer to go with the consistent meaning established up to this point: that all the ones who believe their sins are taken away by the Redeemer who already came to Zion will be saved. Paul is using the quote as a done deal just as the other conclusions are a done deal--being bound in sin, and being offered mercy.

All Israel won by faith, ie, down to my paygrade, ie, I hope?

Humble pie Jack
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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Just making sure on the same page. Rom.11 A remnant is won by faith, eg, Rom.11:5, "a remnant according to an election of grace," ie, Jewish believers that allowed faith to work in them.



:thumbsup: Same page

Humble pie Jack

Are the Jews in this world, Gods firstborn, Israel, not going to be given the opportunity to come to Christ?
 
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shturt678

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It cannot. It's Paul that introduces it as a metaphor saying "you. being a wild olive tree" in 11:17...so the metaphor is the Gentiles as the wild olive tree.

Because the translation is not the best. That is better translated "an so in this way all Israel will be saved".

There are some translations that do that:
Complete Jewish Bible Romans 11:26:
26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved. As the Tanakh says,

NIV Romans 11:26:
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

Holman CSB Romans 11:26:
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

ESV: Romans 11:26:
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

It make the point that Jews and Gentiles are all Israel.

If you know someone well educated in Greek they will tell you "in this way all Israel will be saved" is the proper rendering.

I argued with a brother in my class about that verse, only to find the guy is quite fluent in Greek (he's been to seminary, where he took it up)...and he is very good.

Rom.11:25, 26, "....fulness of the Gentiles shall come in, (comma) v.26 and thus all Israel will be saved...." about as close as one can get. ie not a period but a comma - no separate sentance. Note "thus" and not "then."

My point, Latin not all Greek to me, ie, "all Israel" means only one thing: totus coetus electorum ex Israele.

btw v.25 "Israel" is the physical nation. "Israel" in v.26 not the same meaning.

Just making sure ebed and I are on the same page so I'm not messing up, ie, my introspection, ie, for me. btw ebed, CP, and Interplanner above my paygrade.

Humble pie Jack
 
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ebedmelech

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Rom.11:25, 26, "....fulness of the Gentiles shall come in, (comma) v.26 and thus all Israel will be saved...." about as close as one can get. ie not a period but a comma - no separate sentance. Note "thus" and not "then."

My point, Latin not all Greek to me, ie, "all Israel" means only one thing: totus coetus electorum ex Israele.

btw v.25 "Israel" is the physical nation. "Israel" in v.26 not the same meaning.

Just making sure ebed and I are on the same page so I'm not messing up, ie, my introspection, ie, for me. btw ebed, CP, and Interplanner above my paygrade.

Humble pie Jack
Well Jack...if you understand the Greek...this is the verse in entirety in Greek:

11:26 καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται καθὼς γέγραπται ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ

I do not understand Greek...but as I said a brother in my class proved this is what the verse says.

My research of translations is where I was convinced he was right as many translate it that way...but I search further too, and I was also convinced by this Link:
All Israel Will Be Saved: A Third Way To Read Romans 11 |

The reasearch of "houtos" proved to be convincing! :thumbsup:
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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xXChristPeripheralXx,

Rom11 Verses 1-4

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 “Lord, they have killed
Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

It is clear that God didn’t totally turn away from Israel despite their breaking of the Sinaitic Covenant God made with them. Paul further makes the point that he, being a Jew confirms that God has not rejected Israel.

Paul turns to the prophet Elijah to demonstrate this. The story is in 1 Kings 19, Elijah went up against the prophets of Baal, and they were all killed for their idolatry after God answered Elijah by fire and devoured Elijah’s sacrifice. Jezebel threatened to kill Elijah and he became fearful. Elijah complained to God that he was all alone. However God informed Elijah that He had reserved 7000 who were still faithful to Him ( a remnant).

Paul now uses that point (the remnant of 7000), to again demonstrate God’s grace and sovereignty:
Romans 11:5, 6:

Issues for you to address...

Your words
"It is clear that God didn’t totally turn away from Israel"

Why did you add the word "totally" to your statement? This indicates by your own words that God in fact did turn away from some of Israel by context.

Your statement should have been this.

"It is clear that God didn’t turn away from Israel"
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

You changed the context for no reason, but then affirm what I corrected for you in your next statement.

"Paul further makes the point that he, being a Jew confirms that God has not rejected Israel."

That wasnt a typo, perhaps just poor choice of words?

^^Address this for me please.



Next issue.

In Your Words
"Paul further makes the point that he, being a Jew confirms that God has not rejected Israel.
"

Paul was a Christian I thought? Was he a Jew or a Christian? (spiritual Israel)

Here you have someone like me, Paul, a Christian who is essentially saying that God has not forsaken the Jews.. Even while he is a Christian himself.

You as a Christian refuse to identify the Jews as Gods chosen still, but Paul as a Christian clearly has shown that he in fact identifies them separately of Christians, and says they are not forsaken by God.

At the same point in time two events are happening.

A Christian exists=Paul and his gentile Christian followers
Jews that dont accept Christ=Remnant

Am I not correct?

^^Address this for me..


Next (Nothing to really address for the rest of this breakdown, I just would have liked to have seen you format verses with precepts)

Your Words
"Paul turns to the prophet Elijah to demonstrate this"

I essentially agree with your assessment of the rest, but I am looking for parallel verses such as these, you had the right Book and chapter for sure..


Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Precepts are what we are looking for.. Remember, "precept upon Precept"

The Precepts here is what Paul wanted to correlate, he is using the Prophet Elijah as proof of his own testimony, and rightfully so.


Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1Ki 19:10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

Two more Precepts 1ki19:18 & Rom 11:4
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.


We are in agreement about verses 3&4

Please address the Issues I pointed out for clarification before I continue, I dont need another rebuttal after that.
 
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Interplanner

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When he says 'God did not forsake his people' he means there are no blanket affirmations nor rejections. Some of them have been blessed (Paul gives himself as an example). He is not, however, affirming the ethnos as sacred. He never does. Rom 9-11 is many exs. both ways: unbelieving Jews forsaken; believing Jews blessed.

By the time he says "all" Israel, he means the redeemed community that is past, present and future, that he has been clarifying. He does not mean a future moment or generation because a limitation like that automatically means it is not all, and so there is no sense. Qualifying "all" means it is not "all."

"Jews that don't accept Christ = Remant" is an oxymoron. You will not find this in Paul's thought.

The olive tree is an entity independent of Jew and Gentile. It is not the ethnos of Israel.

Like we always used to ask in Bible college: what ethnos was Abraham before his faith? Ahhh, that's just it. He was Persian. So it can't be ethnos; it can't be genetic.
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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When he says 'God did not forsake his people' he means there are no blanket affirmations nor rejections. Some of them have been blessed (Paul gives himself as an example). He is not, however, affirming the ethnos as sacred. He never does. Rom 9-11 is many exs. both ways: unbelieving Jews forsaken; believing Jews blessed.

By the time he says "all" Israel, he means the redeemed community that is past, present and future, that he has been clarifying. He does not mean a future moment or generation because a limitation like that automatically means it is not all, and so there is no sense. Qualifying "all" means it is not "all."

"Jews that don't accept Christ = Remant" is an oxymoron. You will not find this in Paul's thought.

The olive tree is an entity independent of Jew and Gentile. It is not the ethnos of Israel.

Like we always used to ask in Bible college: what ethnos was Abraham before his faith? Ahhh, that's just it. He was Persian. So it can't be ethnos; it can't be genetic.

No, the olive tree is Israel. The corrupt tree is the Gentiles.

The Gentiles are grafted in, and the broken branches are the Jews who dont have faith in Christ.

They will be grafted back in, you just dont want to admit it.

God bless the Jews, and the Nation of Israel, they are coming on hard times..

You would do wise to add them to your prayers..
 
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ebedmelech

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Rom11 Verses 1-4



Issues for you to address...
OK
Your words
"It is clear that God didn’t totally turn away from Israel"

Why did you add the word "totally" to your statement? This indicates by your own words that God in fact did turn away from some of Israel by context.
Because I'm sharing a passage! Some Christians believe God is totally through with Israel...but HOW can that be if Paul tells us a remnant is being saved??

I'm simply considering views that I know are out there.
Your statement should have been this.

"It is clear that God didn’t turn away from Israel"
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
Not in light of what I know *some* Christians think.
You changed the context for no reason, but then affirm what I corrected for you in your next statement.
No I din't change the context, because the context is what Paul is also addressing...which he states "God has NOT rejected His people..." So contextually, I'm right with Paul.
"Paul further makes the point that he, being a Jew confirms that God has not rejected Israel."

That wasnt a typo, perhaps just poor choice of words?

^^Address this for me please.
You might think so but...why would Paul point to that fact saying "For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,..." in verse 1? He's making the point that if God has turned from Israel... how is he (a Jew) saved? That's totally logical.

Next issue.

In Your Words
"Paul further makes the point that he, being a Jew confirms that God has not rejected Israel.
"

Paul was a Christian I thought? Was he a Jew or a Christian? (spiritual Israel)
Consider the argument...why is he pointing out that he is a Jew? He's also an apostle of Jesus addressing churches who have issues with this very thinking... both Jews and Gentiles. At this point "spiritual Israel" is not the issue..."ethnic Israel" is the issue, as Paul makes it that in verses 1-10.
Here you have someone like me, Paul, a Christian who is essentially saying that God has not forsaken the Jews.. Even while he is a Christian himself.
Because this is an issue in the church! Have you not read Acts? These epistles come from Churches Paul, Barnabas and others planted. These were issues! Have you not read Acts 15?
You as a Christian refuse to identify the Jews as Gods chosen still, but Paul as a Christian clearly has shown that he in fact identifies them separately of Christians, and says they are not forsaken by God.
They are not God's chosen that's Old Covenant! The New Covenant says the chosen are ALL WHO ARE IN CHRIST...for instance Colossians 3:12:
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2 Thessalonians 2:13:
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Titus 1:1:
1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

1 Peter 2:9:
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The chosen in the New Covenant are ALL who God saves.
At the same point in time two events are happening.

A Christian exists=Paul
Jews that dont accept Christ=Remnant
[/B][/COLOR]
Am I not correct?

^^Address this for me..
Absolutely not the remnant are Jews who are believers. Why do you think he uses the example of the 7000 God reserved that had not bowed the knee to Baal in 11:4?

You have to hold the thought and the argument...which at this point is Israel and the remnant God is saving of Israel.

Next (Nothing to really address for the rest of this breakdown, I just would have liked to have seen you format verses with precepts)
No precepts have been laid out but one "God has not rejected His people" that's the precept at this point.
Your Words
"Paul turns to the prophet Elijah to demonstrate this"

I essentially agree with your assessment of the rest, but I am looking for parallel verses such as these, you had the right Book and chapter for sure..
I would hope those reading have knowledge of the scriptures and a bible with references..and that they would know of the very event of Elijah Paul is using.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Precepts are what we are looking for.. Remember, "precept upon Precept"

The Precepts here is what Paul wanted to correlate, he is using the Prophet Elijah as proof of his own testimony, and rightfully so.


Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

1Ki 19:10 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

Two more Precepts 1ki19:18 & Rom 11:4
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.


We are in agreement about verses 3&4

Please address the Issues I pointed out for clarification before I continue, I dont need another rebuttal after that.
I'm not teaching Elijah...and neither is Paul. Elijah's event is an EXAMPLE that God had a remnant of Israel at that time...and Paul is showing God has a remnant here also. No need to go to the Elijah passage and sidetrack Pual's thought. He didn't do so...so I didn't.

As I said...there's one precept here...that God has not cast off Israel, He is saving a remnant nothing else.

The precept is shown in that Elijah *thought* he was the only one...only to find out that God had 7000 others HE HAD RESERVED for Himself. So the precept is God always has a remnant...and in this case there is a remnant of Israel being saved. Paul is one of them.
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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OK

Because I'm sharing a passage! Some Christians believe God is totally through with Israel...but HOW can that be if Paul tells us a remnant is being saved??

I'm simply considering views that I know are out there.

Not in light of what I know *some* Christians think.

Show me where Paul said in these first 4 verses that a remnant is saved by Christ..

No I din't change the context, because the context is what Paul is also addressing...which he states "God has NOT rejected His people..." So contextually, I'm right with Paul.

You might think so but...why would Paul point to that fact saying "For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,..." in verse 1? He's making the point that if God has turned from Israel... how is he (a Jew) saved? That's totally logical.


I didnt kill your son.
I didnt totally kill your son.

So these verses mean the exact same thing to you then huh?

At Pauls exact point in time we have a huge discrepancy for your doctrine.

We have Jews, a remnant, who are not of Christ.
We have Jews, who are of Christ (Paul)
We have Christians, who are Gentiles.

You cant argue your way out of that one.. The three exist at the same time..

You can try to make it seem like all the Jews he is talking about are "saved" but then Ill destroy your statement in the next breakdown of the verses.[/quote]

Consider the argument...why is he pointing out that he is a Jew? He's also an apostle of Jesus addressing churches who have issues with this very thinking... both Jews and Gentiles. At this point "spiritual Israel" is not the issue..."ethnic Israel" is the issue, as Paul makes it that in verses 1-10.


Because this is an issue in the church! Have you not read Acts? These epistles come from Churches Paul, Barnabas and others planted. These were issues! Have you not read Acts 15?

He is pointing out the fact that if God had cast out his people, how could he be saved, yet there he stands, because while he is a Christian, he is also a direct genetic Jew of the seed of Abraham.

Of the remnant of Jews, God will seal 144000 of each tribe. Are you saying that the Jews who followed Christ are that remnant? Nothing you are saying is adding up in scripture man..
 
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ebedmelech

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Show me where Paul said in these first 4 verses that a remnant is saved by Christ..
You've only done 4 verses. That answer is in verse 5:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

I didnt kill your son.
I didnt totally kill your son.

So these verses mean the exact same thing to you then huh?
Nothing to do with the passage at hand...try reading it.
At Pauls exact point in time we have a huge discrepancy for your doctrine.

We have Jews, a remnant, who are not of Christ.
We have Jews, who are of Christ (Paul)
We have Christians, who are Gentiles.

You cant argue your way out of that one.. The three exist at the same time..
I don't have to! You're already proving your inability to stay within the context of the passage.

*The remnant is of Israel "according to God's GRACIOUS CHOICE"...that means they're SAVED...so already you're on the wrong path!

*Paul being a Jew is also of the remnant.
You can try to make it seem like all the Jews he is talking about are "saved" but then Ill destroy your statement in the next breakdown of the verses.
Do you even know what a remnant is? At this point you're simply showing you're out to prove me wrong...but you're really showing me you have work to do in the scriptures...and that's okay...ONLY if you know that. You want to act as if you have understanding here...and you really don't.

A REMNANT IS "THAT WHICH IS LEFT OVER"!!! This remnant of Jews is what God has left over from all who rejected Christ.

Why in the world do you think Paul uses Elijah and that remnant as the example! All Israel was worshiping Baal except Elijah and the 7000...THEY ARE WHAT IS LEFT OVER.

Now...would you stop trying to prove me wrong and pay attention to what the passage says???

He is pointing out the fact that if God had cast out his people, how could he be saved, yet there he stands, because while he is a Christian, he is also a direct genetic Jew of the seed of Abraham.
No he's not. But you go ahead and think that. Do me a favor...kinda read ahead in Romans 11...because at this point you really have no clue.
Of the remnant of Jews, God will seal 144000 of each tribe. Are you saying that the Jews who followed Christ are that remnant? Nothing you are saying is adding up in scripture man..
That is UTTERLY ridiculous! Let me show you why...you look at the patterns of John in Revelation. He will hear a voice say something and then he will turn to see what it means...Like this:

Revelation 6:1 John hears:
Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.

Now Revelation 6:2 John looks:
2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
You will see that all through Revelation John hears...and he looks to see what it means.

When it comes to the 144,000...it's the same thing...Rev 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

In Revelation 7:9 John look to see what the 144,000 are:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

The 144,000 represents ALL OF GOD'S REDEEMED...they are THE ISRAEL OF GOD.

Think on that.

Now back to Romans...you don't need to see it my way...but until you stop bringing what you think to a passage...and let the passage tell you...you're never gonna get this right.

This is a rich passage...and really you cannot completely get Romans 11...unless you've read Romans 9 & 10.

You need to do that.
 
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xXChristPeripheralXx

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You've only done 4 verses. That answer is in verse 5:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.


Nothing to do with the passage at hand...try reading it.

I don't have to! You're already proving your inability to stay within the context of the passage.

*The remnant is of Israel "according to God's GRACIOUS CHOICE"...that means they're SAVED...so already you're on the wrong path!

*Paul being a Jew is also of the remnant.

Do you even know what a remnant is? At this point you're simply showing you're out to prove me wrong...but you're really showing me you have work to do in the scriptures...and that's okay...ONLY if you know that. You want to act as if you have understanding here...and you really don't.

A REMNANT IS "THAT WHICH IS LEFT OVER"!!! This remnant of Jews is what God has left over from all who rejected Christ.

Why in the world do you think Paul uses Elijah and that remnant as the example! All Israel was worshiping Baal except Elijah and the 7000...THEY ARE WHAT IS LEFT OVER.

Now...would you stop trying to prove me wrong and pay attention to what the passage says???


No he's not. But you go ahead and think that. Do me a favor...kinda read ahead in Romans 11...because at this point you really have no clue.

That is UTTERLY ridiculous! Let me show you why...you look at the patterns of John in Revelation. He will hear a voice say something and then he will turn to see what it means...Like this:

Revelation 6:1 John hears:
Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.

Now Revelation 6:2 John looks:
2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
You will see that all through Revelation John hears...and he looks to see what it means.

When it comes to the 144,000...it's the same thing...Rev 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

In Revelation 7:9 John look to see what the 144,000 are:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

The 144,000 represents ALL OF GOD'S REDEEMED...they are THE ISRAEL OF GOD.

Think on that.

Now back to Romans...you don't need to see it my way...but until you stop bringing what you think to a passage...and let the passage tell you...you're never gonna get this right.

This is a rich passage...and really you cannot completely get Romans 11...unless you've read Romans 9 & 10.

You need to do that.

No, your preterist programming mechanisms tell you to refer to Romans 9 when a Christian challenges you on Romans11.. Ive been on to you for a while now bro..



Check it.. Its not prophecy, but you may benefit from it..

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
 
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shturt678

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Well Jack...if you understand the Greek...this is the verse in entirety in Greek:

11:26 καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται καθὼς γέγραπται ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ

I do not understand Greek...but as I said a brother in my class proved this is what the verse says.

My research of translations is where I was convinced he was right as many translate it that way...but I search further too, and I was also convinced by this Link:
All Israel Will Be Saved: A Third Way To Read Romans 11 |

The reasearch of "houtos" proved to be convincing! :thumbsup:

Went over link and will be the only time you and I agree to agree, ie, all valid! Better rendition: ", and thus...", v.26. Definitely not "then."

Humble pie Jack

btw don't do like I use to do, after the Word beats another up, don't mock their human reasoning too much, ie, we're after their father and not them.

Humble pie Jack
 
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shturt678

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Well Jack...if you understand the Greek...this is the verse in entirety in Greek:

11:26 καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται καθὼς γέγραπται ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ ῥυόμενος ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ

I do not understand Greek...but as I said a brother in my class proved this is what the verse says.

My research of translations is where I was convinced he was right as many translate it that way...but I search further too, and I was also convinced by this Link:
All Israel Will Be Saved: A Third Way To Read Romans 11 |

The reasearch of "houtos" proved to be convincing! :thumbsup:

Thought I would expound a little more:

More importantly, the link unveils a valid Contextual interpretation of Rom.11:25, 26 Text. I'm a retired teacher and have promulgated for almost three decades that one must interpret the Scriptures going from the ancient languages forward to the English, eg, like the link partially and validly did. We personally have to do this due to one cannot trust our Christian think-tankers of today, nor their modern Commentaries, nor Church leaders. All accountable need an Interlinear, Lexicon, etc., and an 8 case Koine basic on-line or whatever course.

Most after 1930 or so interpret from the English backwards to the ancient languages throwing in a little Greek or Hebrew in to sweeten the pot.

The link omitted the following example althogh the conclusion was valid for sure: Again it is not necessary to place a period before v.26 (A.V.), a comma will do, ie, again "...shall come in, and thus all Israel will be saved...," contextually, grammatically, and aspectually "That petrifaction in part" has come, etc., (v.25) is only the preliminary statement, the incidental feature of the mystery, to which the main content of the mystery is attached:

"and thus all Israel will be saved." "Thus," outws "in this way," (the link nailed) with petrifaction in part coming to and continuing to remain with Israel until the end of time, "thus all Israel will be saved," all of it from the patriarchs onward until time ends and the work of saving the spriritual Israel is concluded of which the physical Israel was, is, and will be a part of, for those that embraced by faith in the promise to come or for those embracing by faith the promise that came.

Some ascribe a temporal sense of outws. They declare that it means "then"; then after fulness of the Gentiles shall have come in, all Israel shall be saved. Then others regard the adverb as "then" using other passages to support their novelty.

Like outos and all its forms, also the adverb outw is regularly used to refer back to something just stated, "thus," "in this way." Because "thus" refers back, "thus" and "then" are confused in Paul's statement, are still confused although this view has been so adequately refuted.

In v.25 "Israel" is the physical nation; hence it is claimed that in v.26 "all Israel" must have the same meaning. But in 9:7 we read: "all those of Israel (the physcial nation), not these are Israel (the spiritual Israel)." In the same brief sentance "Israel" is used in different senses.

Again, "in part" (v.25) and "all" in v.26 are directly opposed; hence it is claimed that, if the former refes to the nation, then the latter must also do so. The two are opposed in a real opposition as in 9:7, as in 11:7: the petrification "in part" is only physical Israel, the "all" who will be saved the spiritual Israel, which alone God regards as Israel.

Could continue on and on, but only wanted to put in a plug for all to interpret going forward eliminating all human reasoning.

Good job folks,

Humble pie Jack (IICor.4:7)
 
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