Don't understand the christmas story

dannyz

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Hi,
[FONT=&quot]I have, like most Americans, heard the Christmas story of the birth of Jesus, the stable, wise men, angels, shepherds, king Herod etc. countless times. But I never really read them until a couple weeks ago. The story of Jesus birth is told in the gospels of Matthew and Luke. When I read them both they were two completely different stories that seem to contradict each other. The more I read them the more different they became. One account has Joseph fleeing to Egypt in the middle of the night just after the birth of Jesus and remaining there till the death of Herod. Joseph was afraid to return to Jerusalem even after the death of Herod.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] In Luke’s account they are in Jerusalem at least 41 days after the birth with all Jerusalem knowing about it. Then they return home to Nazareth but make the trip back to Jerusalem every year to celebrate Passover. To save space I summarized what each book says. Please read it in your bibles and tell me what you think. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthews account:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jesus was born in Bethlehem during the reign of King Herod. Matthew 2:1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Wise men from the east came to King Herod seeking the newborn king of the Jews Matthew 2:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]All Jerusalem was aware of this. Matthew 2:3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Herod told them to find the new king and tell him so he could also worship him. Of course he was jealous and wanted to kill Jesus. Matthew 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The wise men left King Herod and saw the star standing over where Jesus was born. Matthew 2:9 (Bethlehem is only 4 to 5 miles from Jerusalem and King Herod’s palace and soldiers)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The wise men worshiped Jesus and presented him gifts. Matthew 2:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then they left and were warned in a dream of Herod’s plans. They went back to their own country another way. Matthew 2:12[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]When they departed an angel warned Joseph of Herod’s plan in a dream. Matthew 2:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Joseph took Mary and Jesus in the middle of the night and fled to Egypt and “remained there till the death of Herod”. Matthew 2:14&15[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]After Herod died Joseph, Mary and Jesus returned to” the land of Israel” Matthew 2:19-21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Upon his arrival in Israel Josephs learned that Herod’s son Archelaeus was reigning on his father’s throne over Judea (the southern region at Jerusalem) and “was afraid to go there” so he went to Nazareth (in the north and not under Archaleus’s control.) Matthew 2:22&23[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Luke’s account [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There was no star, wise men, King Herod or slaughter of the innocents.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Angels and heavenly hosts appeared to shepherds on the night of Jesus birth who “made widely known” the saying which was told to them by the angels concerning Jesus. Luke 2: 17-18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]After 8 days Jesus was still in Bethlehem or Jerusalem and was circumcised and named. Luke 2:21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]After Mary’s purification was complete they brought Jesus to the temple in Jerusalem to present Him to the lord. This was 41 days after the birth as commanded in Leviticus 12:1-8. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Anna and Simeon saw him in the temple at Jerusalem 41 days after His birth and spoke widely of Him to all who looked for redemption. Herod had to have known this.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]When Joseph and Mary had performed all things commanded by the law they left Jerusalem and departed for Nazareth at least 41 days after His birth. Luke 2:39. (BTW Nazareth is about 65 miles north of Jerusalem which probably took 3 to 5 days travel. The bible doesn't say whether Mary and Joseph stayed in Bethlehem after the birth or returned to Nazareth and came back to the temple for the forty first day in the temple at Jerusalem.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Every year Mary and Joseph went back to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 2:21[/FONT]

danny :confused:
 

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In Matt 2:16, Herod demands the death of all infants 2 years old and younger. I think it likely that the wise men did not arrive during the account given in Luke, but when Jesus was at least a little older (more than the 41 days old). By the time Herod realized they weren't coming back, he already knew something about the time frame for Jesus' birth from the wise men, which is why he wanted to kill all of them up to age 2.

I'm not sure when the "every year" started - it might not be until after they returned from Egypt. Not sure about that either way.

But they don't cause me a lot of concern of contradiction.
 
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dannyz

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[FONT=&quot]Kylissa :)
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for responding, but I would urge you to carefully read the two accounts in your bible. I see no was to harmonize them no matter how I may try. The wise men left Herod and saw the star over the stable where Jesus was born. They presented gold, frankincense, and myrr to him and then left for their own country. This had to be shortly after Jesus’ birth and before the 41st day in Luke because after the purification ceremony in the Jerusalem temple on the 41st day they left for Nazareth. Then Joseph and Mary returned every year to Jerusalem for the Passover. Every year from the time they left Jerusalem for Nazareth would mean year number 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,and year 12 when Jesus is found in the temple wouldn’t it?. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In Matthew’s account Joseph wakes up from the dream while in Bethlehem and flees for Egypt in the middle of the night with Mary and Jesus. He doesn’t return to Israel till an angel appears in a dream and tells Joseph that King Herod is dead. Upon entering Israel he discovers that Herods’ son has taken over his father’s throne so he is afraid to go to Jerusalem. He takes Mary and Jesus and goes instead to Nazareth. Look at and read the bible stories of the birth of Jesus. They are two drastically different accounts. Just because the bible contains errors does not diminish from who God is or make reading it less meaningful to me. :)
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] I would imagine that Herod killed all children under 2 years old just for good measure. He wanted to make certain he killed the new king. [/FONT]
 
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Willie T

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I'll only touch on one of many places where you can't understand because you seem to think you can change what the Bible accounts actually say...

Matthew 2:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

If we choose to invent things not said, then we would not even understand a bus schedule.
 
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dannyz

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[FONT=&quot]Hey Willie,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks for the response, but I don’t fully understand your point. The wise men heard King Herod. They left and saw the star stand over where Jesus was and went there. This was about a 5 mile journey from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. They presented gifts and left but being warned not to return to Herod they went to their country another way. Joseph was awakened by a dream and took the child and Mary and fled to Egypt by night. He didn’t return to Israel from Egypt till an angel in a dream told him that Herod had died and to go back to Israel. He was still afraid to go to Jerusalem because of Herods’ son so he went to Nazareth. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Or another story is there were no wise men and Jesus was in the temple 41 days after his birth. Then the family went to Nazareth, not Egypt and made the journey back to Jerusalem every year despite King Herod still ruling in Jerusalem. That is what the bible says. Please read it. I am certain that there is not a court of law in the world that would rule that these are not two different stories, and if not why did the Holy Spirit write such confusing accounts that cannot be harmonized? This is what the bible says? Does it diminish who you are or who God is because the accounts contradict? No, I don’t think it does diminish either you or God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am sure you have no problem reading bus schedules and neither do I. I just read what was in the bible concerning these two different accounts and I would ask you to please read them also. [/FONT]
 
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Willie T

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[FONT=&quot]Hey Willie,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks for the response, but I don’t fully understand your point. The wise men heard King Herod. Actually, Herod heard the Magi tell him they had been tracking the star for about two years... that is why Herod had the children up to that age killed, and not just "newborns".They left and saw the star stand over where Jesus was and went there. This was about a 5 mile journey from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. Did you notice they rejoiced when they saw the star? Why, if this was just an hour and a half trip? Obviously, there was more to it than just hopping over to Bethlehem, a few miles away.They presented gifts To what the Hebrew language calls a toddler, not an infant.and left but being warned not to return to Herod they went to their country another way. Joseph was awakened by a dream and took the child and Mary and fled to Egypt by night. He didn’t return to Israel from Egypt till an angel in a dream told him that Herod had died and to go back to Israel. He was still afraid to go to Jerusalem because of Herods’ son so he went to Nazareth.There was no reason to go to Jerusalem. He didn't live there. He went back to their home in Nasareth. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Or another story is there were no wise men and Jesus was in the temple 41 days after his birth. Then the family went to Nazareth, not Egypt and made the journey back to Jerusalem every year despite King Herod still ruling in Jerusalem. And you think each time they dragged a small kid with them? Maybe, but probably not. When he was 12, he was old enough to accompany them.That is what the bible says. Please read it. I am certain that there is not a court of law in the world that would rule that these are not two different stories, and if not why did the Holy Spirit write such confusing accounts that cannot be harmonized? This is what the bible says? Does it diminish who you are or who God is because the accounts contradict? No, I don’t think it does diminish either you or God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am sure you have no problem reading bus schedules and neither do I. I just read what was in the bible concerning these two different accounts and I would ask you to please read them also. [/FONT]
Yes, I know you READ what was in the Bible, but you POSTED assumptions not written anywhere. Where did you get the idea a star stopped over the stable?

Of course they are two differing stories. They are written by two different men. But the plot is the same...
A baby was born.
Magi visited, bringing gifts.
Herod found out the child was a threat, and probably as much as two years old at the time.
Joseph had a dream, and they fled.
They came back after Herod was dead.

BTW, I included Luke 2:22 for you.
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
There was no reason not to. Herod knew nothing at this time (and wouldn't for more than a year, to a year and a half) They didn't fear being in Jerusalem.
 
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dannyz

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Willie T
The magi may have traveled for 2 years on camels across the Himalayas from India, Tibet or Nepal although there is no way to prove this.

The journey form Herods palace to Bethleham is about five miles. I am not sure how long it would take, but I am sure more than 30 minutes. Maybe a couple hours on camels?
So you are saying that Jesus was in the stable and the star was over the house in Bethleham and the wise men came to present gifts when Jesus was a todler? Why was he still in Bethleham 2 years after they had to go for the census and had not returned to their home in Nazareth? That makes no sense.
Then they return to Nazareth and make the journey to Jerusalem every year for Passover. [FONT=&quot]Luke 2:21. "They" would mean Joseph and Mary. It is not clear if Jesus went.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When did Joseph receive the dream and flee to Egypt? He was there till the death of Herod so he and Mary did not return to Jerusalem every year for passover as Lukes account says.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]these are two completely different stories.
[/FONT]
 
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Willie T

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Do yourself some reading. The Bible tells us that Herod acted to kill all children two years and younger, "according to the time that he learned from the Magi."

As for the rest, you are either too confused to reason with, or you are just playing games.
 
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dannyz

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Willie,
Thanks for the input but the confusing part is to try to make the two stories harmonize. It cannot be done without twisting things beyond recognition.
A couple questions for you:

1. What as the time line for Joseph fleeing to Egypt?
2. Was Jesus still in Bethlehem when he was a toddler? (There home was in Nazareth. They only went there for the census and had to find lodging)
3. Was it a literal star in the sky that the magi followed? "and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was". Matthew 2:9
 
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Willie T

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Willie,
Thanks for the input but the confusing part is to try to make the two stories harmonize. It cannot be done without twisting things beyond recognition.
A couple questions for you:

1. What as the time line for Joseph fleeing to Egypt?Obviously, very shortly after the Magi left their house, when Jesus was somewhere around a year and a half old.
2. Was Jesus still in Bethlehem when he was a toddler? (There home was in Nazareth. They only went there for the census and had to find lodging)They would have left for home probably within two weeks of His birth.
3. Was it a literal star in the sky that the magi followed? "and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was". Matthew 2:9Who knows? There is a very interesting "informal study" on this called "The Star of Bethlehem ", but it has a lot of problems in the theory... still, it's one heck of an interesting video. It's exciting to watch anyway... even if it may not be all that accurate. I really enjoyed it.
Here's the video. Enjoy it if you can..... BUT don't take it as gospel. It's just cool entertainment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hptQbH_59nc
 
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dannyz

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Willie,
I watched the video and it was as you said entertaining. Thanks, I have always loved watching the stars at night and enjoyed astronomy.
If you can make these stories fit together then more power to you. I think reading them at face value there is no way. Jesus would have had to travel back and forth for what reason? Joseph fled at night for Egypt and didn't return to Israel till after the death of Herod (Matthew 2:13-14) and yet "they" somehow managed to return to Jerusalem "every year" for the Passover? (Luke 2:14) This means that when they fled to Egypt they would have had to return in less than a year, possibly months to attend the Passover. But when the angel in a dream told Joseph to return to Israel because Herod was dead he was afraid to go to Jerusalem because he feared Hedrods’ son Archaleus (Matthew 2:19-23). It takes way more of a stretch than I can muster to make them harmonize.
One final thought is when Matthew 2:9 says “ When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.” I don’t think that it could have been a literal star because it would be hard to tell what house it stopped over.
Merry Christmas
 
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dannyz

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Willie,
Yes but we don't know when they fled to Egypt in relation to passover. If they fled the night after passover to Egypt they would have returned in 360 days later for the next passover. Or if passover was 6 months away or 3 months he would have fled to Egypt and then returned to Jerusalem in 3 or 6 months because the bible says they went to the feast of passover "every year" (Luke 2:21) When he does finally return to Israel because of the angels dream Joseph is afraid to return to Jerusalem because Herods son is reigning in his fathers place so Joseph would not go to Jerusalem in Judea. Instead he goes to Nazareth. This cannot be reconciled nor can the birth, but if you can twist it and make it fit you are far more creative than I.
 
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Willie T

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Did you read what I said?

Joseph was told by the angel in the dream TO STAY in Egypt until he was told to return. If this was 15 years, so be it. Passover happening back in Israel had nothing to do with anything about that command the angel gave.
 
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Willie T

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Willie,
Yes but we don't know when they fled to Egypt in relation to passover. If they fled the night after passover to Egypt they would have returned in 360 days later for the next passover. Or if passover was 6 months away or 3 months he would have fled to Egypt and then returned to Jerusalem in 3 or 6 months because the bible says they went to the feast of passover "every year" (Luke 2:21) When he does finally return to Israel because of the angels dream Joseph is afraid to return to Jerusalem because Herods son is reigning in his fathers place so Joseph would not go to Jerusalem in Judea. Instead he goes to Nazareth. This cannot be reconciled nor can the birth, but if you can twist it and make it fit you are far more creative than I.


Luke 2:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
How in the world does this have anything to do with you claiming they went to Passover every year?
 
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dannyz

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[FONT=&quot]Willie, Willie, Willie, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You are alright. You make me laugh. Luke’s account ends with Jesus being presented in the temple on day 41 after his birth. Anna and Simeon see him there. After preforming the purification rituals and presenting Jesus to the Lord in the temple that day in Jerusalem the family left for Nazareth where they lived and every year they returned to Jerusalem for Passover. We don’t know if Jesus went every year, but I would guess that Mary and Joseph would want the son of God to be in the temple with them as much as possible. What a wonderful teaching experience for a young child! We know Jesus did go with them when he was twelve because he stayed behind in Luke’s account.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]OK, are there any questions that you don’t understand so far about Luke’s account? ??

Good!

Then to summarize Luke's account Jesus was born, presented in the temple on day 41. The family then went back to Nazareth and returned to Jerusalem every year for Passover. Is this correct or am I misinterpreting something? Please read the gospel of Luke chapter 2 very slowly and carefully.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Now let’s look at Matthews account. Jesus was born. Wise men from the east came worshiped him. Joseph had a dream in which an angel told him to flee to Egypt in the middle of night and stay there till he was told to return. After the death of Herod an angel in a dream told him to return. Upon entering Israel He learned that Herod's’ son had assumed his throne and he was afraid to go to Jerusalem so he didn’t. Instead he went to Nazareth. [/FONT]Here are the scriptures:

Luke chapter2:39-41 says : When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth. 40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.41 Now His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover.

Matthew 2:13-14 says: Now when they (the wise men) had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.” 14 So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. 15 He remained there until the death of Herod.

Then Matthew 2: 19- 22 continues “ But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.” 21 So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee, 23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth.”

I don't know Willie, I think I have said about all I can say. We just have to respect each others different interpretations.
Merry Christmas :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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I see most of this has been handled, so no need for me to repeat what you asked me about the star leading the wise men to Bethlehem ... I hope that part is already resolved.

But your main problem seems to be whether or not "they went there every year".

From Luke 2
39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

There is obviously a break here, because we are moving from a newborn Jesus to a 12 year old Jesus. And the break is talked about in vs 40, because Jesus grew during that time.

Now, if I happened to say that some friends of mine had a baby, and they had a big party when they brought him from the hospital. And the baby grew and did well in school. Every year the family goes to the lake camping for their vacation. When the child was 12, thus and such happens ...

I'm not lying or deceiving anyone if the yearly camping trips began when the child was 5. No one would necessarily take it to mean that the baby went camping his first year, even while he was only a few months old. I just told you that he did well in school before I mentioned the yearly camping trips. And that's our understanding of how people speak today. I don't know the speech patterns used by the writers of the Bible, but no, I really don't see this as a problem.

If the Bible is TRULY contradictory, then yes, it is a problem for me, because it obviously can't be what I believe it to be, which is the Word of God. Either God doesn't know what He's talking about, or couldn't make Himself clear enough to people that they get it right, or He forgot what He meant to say ... it doesn't fit with the nature of the God that I believe in.

That's not to say that I don't think there can be slight errors in translation, but honestly, I believe those to generally be restricted to the kinds of things that make it difficult to exactly express a thought in translating from one language to another (which I've done some of, and it can cause slight misunderstandings). But I don't think there are major contradictions in Scripture. I know there are plenty of people who believe that there are, and if you LOOK for them, with the purpose of discrediting the Bible, then I'm sure you'll find things to satisfy that belief. If on the other hand you approach the same problems with humility and a teachable spirit, and seek for the truth, I believe that will be revealed to you. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Seriously, though, if that passage is really giving you so much trouble, and making you unable to believe the Christmas story, it's really so simple.
 
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DannyZ
I was reading over your thread here. I want to throw a few other points in that may help, if I may.
The style of writing used by the writers of both Matthew and Luke is very allegorical and symbolic. It was not, in my opinion, ever meant to be a literal or accurate account, but something far more important, an allegorical and mystical instruction through the use of symbols.
Of course, the symbolism and translation therein is always up to personal interpretation.

The symbol of the star symbolizes light...the "Light of the World" or simply "enlightenment" The magi represent the intellect as well as the tradition of the magi (magicians and astrologers) who sought a much greater gift...the gift of Enlightenment and Inner Peace.

Herod is a difficult character to understand. For the record, and this is proven by science and archaeology, Herod never ordered the slaughter of the innocents. What Herod does represent though, is the human ego, that "I know everything and I won't let someone else, King, Messiah or whoever, challenge that" Herod represents selfishness, and fear. He also illustrates the human state when someone fears the unknown so much that he is willing to go to any lengths to oppose it. Herod is Fear, conceit, all that will be opposed by the Christ.
The Journey to Bethlehem, or Judea, or Nazareth, or the Manger or wherever remains a symbol used by writers to illustrate not a literal physical journey, but a more important, inner journey. The Magi carrying riches off the world, education, money, power, offered to give these things up to the Spiritual leader, the one who can offer them that which has always eluded them.
I have met a number of people. Sadly, who despite their wealth and their status, remain the most miserable and unhappy people around. I would venture that you have as well. The Magi were willing to trade everything, and put aside all their learning, just to kneel (learn from) the Christ. They sought the Light from the Star.....and that LIGHT is the soul of the Universe, the manifestation of all reality. Something symbolized by Christhood, something missing from astrology and magic.
Herod, on the other hand, feared change. He feared what he could not understand. He dared not admit that he was wrong, that his ego kept him from walking down a path to find a better life. The magi had a good life, and would trade it away for what they knew as a better one. Herod had a rich and powerful life, yet was unhappy, and he would not trade his familiar suffering for something, anything , better. The reason for this is because Herod's materialism would have to be cast aside for Christ's Light......and Herod was afraid to do this.

Allegorically, the journey is not a literal account of Herod, Magi, and Jesus and Mary but a symbolic account of each of our inward journeys. Reading it as such, there is no conflict.
 
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