Matthew 24 should not be referenced for End Times Discussions

Lamad, EbedM believes in justification by Christ alone, as I think you do. whatever you imagine the tribulation to be it is not the wrath of God on people who believe on justification by Christ alone. So enjoy your totally contradictory view of redemption. People are not saved by being TC (theologically correct). And a period like you are talking about is not the day of God's wrath or judgement for deciding all this as found in Rom 2 or 2 Pet 3.

If you knew the background of the time of unusual duress, you might be slower in putting it in the future. It is Dan 9 and pretty much wraps up the old covenantal phase of history in disgrace.

As for the lordship, it is like the question of God's sovereignty: if he does not have the last say, all of this is pointless. God will "othello" evil in the end. That means that now, yes, he does have control, and reigns. the victory over death showed the crack in the entire system.

As for the prince of this world, in Jn 11, the whole construct there could be the opposite of what you are thinking. He might be referring to himself being driven out. And so saying that his sacrifice is conscious and voluntary. the Gospel was an act of judgement upon this world (Rom 3), but in advance of the final day.

Interplanner said:

Lamad, EbedM believes in justification by Christ alone, as I think you do. whatever you imagine the tribulation to be it is not the wrath of God on people who believe on justification by Christ alone. So enjoy your totally contradictory view of redemption. People are not saved by being TC (theologically correct). And a period like you are talking about is not the day of God's wrath or judgement for deciding all this as found in Rom 2 or 2 Pet 3.

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You are free to believe whatever you wish. OF COURSE justification is by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as per Paul in 1 Cor. 15, where he summerized his gospel. But you see, we are not speaking of justification, but being ready for the pretrib trip to heaven. These are two very different things.

Interplanner, I don't imagine anything here. I go exactly by what the word of God tells us. I know where God's wrath begins in Revelation. I know where the 70th week begins in Revelation. There are several verses that tell us we can be saved from His wrath. These verses all have a "flip side:" being, some will NOT be saved from His wrath, because they were not a DOER of His words on HOW to be saved from His wrath. Make no mistake, God's plans are very clear, because He put them in His book! He will come and take His bride OUT of the world, then pour judgment out with His wrath. For those that choose not to believe in His pretrib rapture, they have fallen into the trap of not DOING His word, so will be left behind.

Again, make no mistake here: if you are ON THE WORLD during the future 70th week, you WILL be in the wrath of God - for HIS will is that you be found worthy to escape, by way of the rapture. If you are on the planet, there will be no escape from His wrath. It will show up in no water to drink, in terrible heat, in little beasties that sting like scorpions, in sudden destruction, in an event that will kill 1/3 of earth's remaining population. All these things are coming, as sure as day follows night and night follows day.

If you knew the background of the time of unusual duress, you might be slower in putting it in the future. It is Dan 9 and pretty much wraps up the old covenantal phase of history in disgrace.

There are those in error, such as those in Paul's day that was SURE the Day of the Lord had started, and they were already IN IT. They were WRONG as Paul showed us. But there are still those TODAY that say we are in the Day of the Lord - and they also are wrong. It is VERY EASY to tell: the great departure [rapture] has not happened yet, and the man of sin has not yet been revealed. When those two events are seen, then one can know without any shadow of doubt, the DAY has begun and they are in it.

If you would read without preconceived glasses, Rev. 13 TELLS Us what will cause the terrible pressure and great tribulation put that is coming upon the world soon. Let me refresh your mind: the man of sin turned Leopard Beast will erect an IMAGE and force all to worship it. (Think of the three Hebrew Children that refused to bow.) He will create a MARK for easy identification, and force ALL to receive it - without which no one can buy or sell. This will be quite like a Jew hiding in Berlin in 1943: his chances of survival will be ZERO, or close to it. Only this time, this war will be not only against the Jews and all of Israel; it will also be against ALL who trust in Jesus Christ. And this time it will be world wide. Just before this mark is enforced, an angel will preach to all, in their own language, that if they take the mark, they will be DOOMED to the lake of fire.

Can you get the picture now? people we get VERY HUNGRY. Hunger is a great motivator. Will they just give up and take the mark, so they can eat and drink? Or will they just give up and turn themselves in and lose their head? It will be a TERRIBLE time to live. That is why Jesus said there never was such a time, and never will be again. Therefore, GOD'S plan is that we ESCAPE these terrible things.

Yet, poster after poster on this forum has chosen to IGNORE Luke 21:36, make their OWN appointment with wrath, and absolutely refuse to be snatched away to escape what is coming. This is NOT wise.

As for the lordship, it is like the question of God's sovereignty: if he does not have the last say, all of this is pointless. God will "othello" evil in the end. That means that now, yes, he does have control, and reigns. the victory over death showed the crack in the entire system.

There is no doubt Jesus conquered death, by coming out of the grave; but death is not conquered for us, until the day the dead in Christ rise. THEN it will be conquered for us. Of course the day will come when Jesus will have put ALL enemies under His feet, and will submit it all to His Father. Our point here is that this is FUTURE.

As for the prince of this world, in Jn 11, the whole construct there could be the opposite of what you are thinking. He might be referring to himself being driven out. And so saying that his sacrifice is conscious and voluntary. the Gospel was an act of judgement upon this world (Rom 3), but in advance of the final day.

Yet, several times Jesus called Satan the "prince" of this world. In fact, really all anyone need do is open their eyes and look around; look at where this world is at today, and where it is going. There should be NO DOUBT that Satan is STILL blinding the lost and controlling them. Thank God, one day soon his reign will end. The kingdoms of this world will be turned over to Jesus Christ.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

This is probably one more area where your theory is way off. The second person of the trinity laid aside all His Godly attributes, to be born as a human. Yes, He was the same person (G0d) that spoke and light was created, when He was in human flesh, but He gave up be omniscient and omnipresent and all powerful. He did EVERYTHING He did as a human, by the anointing Holy Spirit. This way He could say, "the works that I do, you will do also, and greater than these." We do the works the same way, by the anointing Holy Spirit. But this is for a different thread.

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Once again this is quite selective reading Lamad. Jesus NEVER ceased to be God. He was 100% man AND 100% God. To say what you're saying is to only venture into what you nor I can understand being only human. JESUS WAS NOT ONLY HUMAN. He demonstrated every attribute omniscieince. omnipotence, and omniprescence as He walked this earth.

Your theory is what's way off Lamad

iamlamad said:

Nope. Now you're trying to say the apostle Peter, filled with the spirit, didn't know where to stop? It's Peter himself that tells us "holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the HolySpirit". You need to rethink that one.

Do I have to show you? I was sure you knew this one:
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16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Do you understand, when Peter said, "this is that..." he was referring to what had just happened at Pentecost. Indeed, from 17-18 he was RIGHT ON. But verses 19-20 were FAR FAR into the future, and did not fit "this is that." Can you possibly understand, we are STILL WAITING on verse 20 to come to pass.

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Once again this take a clear reading of scripture on your part. Certainly verses 19 & 20 are in the future. How are you making a point?

How are we still waiting on verse 20 Lamad??? This is you failing to understand judgment language God used in the OT. This is the very language God used coming in judgment on Egypt in Isaiah 13:9-11. What was going on there? Isaiah was prophesying the judgment on Babylon by the Medes.
Isaiah 13:9-11:
9 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.

This portion of Joel is Jerusalem's destruction (which would come in AD 70). The language is the same as Isaiah 13 and Joel prophesied before Isaiah!

In Joel 2 there are two judgments prophesied by him...Jerusalem before Christ, which came at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar...which is Joel 2:1-17...note verse 10:
10 Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble, The sun and the moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness.

Joel then gives the prophecy of the return of the Jews to the land in verses 18-27, and the coming of Christ!

So now...look at the portion Peter repeats in Joe 2:30, 31:30:
“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Once again YOU must let scripture say what it means! This is the same language Jesus used in Matthew 24:29:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Are you noticing that every time God prophesies judgment, HE USES COSMIC LANGUAGE??? This is what you miss...this is typical symbolic judgment language. There are 3 undeniable examples. But let's take it a step further to make the point...watch the language Job uses when he is afflicted in Job 3:4, 5:
4 “May that day be darkness; Let not God above care for it, Nor light shine on it.
5 “Let darkness and black gloom claim it; Let a cloud settle on it; Let the blackness of the day terrify it.

See the cosmic language of Job describing his distress??? This is what you miss sticking to a "literal rule of interpretation" because you won't allow the language to says how it is to be applied!

I will continue my response with the next post

continued response:

iamlamad said:

This is pretty much a total misunderstanding of scripture on your part. Before Paul said anything Jesus said in John 12:30-32:
30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

So Jesus just straightened you out there...He said NOW the ruler (Satan), of this world will be cast out. What do you think "now" means.

Again you are hung by the tongue! Again you try to establish doctrine by a macro verse! Let's read it:
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2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

WHO then is Paul speaking about? Of course, Satan Himself. We both agree that this is years after Jesus spoke, yet Paul is telling us that at his time, Satan was still the "god" of his world.

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Here again we see proof that your theory is bogus and needs to be straightened out. You base your doctrine on a macro verse, and IGNORE all the clear micro verses that prove your theory wrong. You can look around today in this world, and see that the whole world is pushing God out of everything, being blinded by Satan; yet you think Satan was cast out back then? These verses are speaking of a time still in our future, and at this future time, the Leopard beast will have power or authority over the entire world (given to him by Satan - for Satan had this power) and authority to overcome the saints of God. So was Satan "cast out" way back in Jesus day? Prophetically speaking, YES, but not to be fulfilled until the 7th trumpet sounds sometime in our future. Please take note, of one bases doctrine on macro verses and ignores micro verses, their doctrine is SURE to be off. If you read the rest of the New Testament, it will clearly show that what you believe about John 12 is off.

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No. The person caught is you Lamad...because again you really miss what Jesus is saying in John 12:30-32. Go read Revelation 12:7-12...perhaps you'll get a clue. Satan has always been the "God of this world"...so Paul is simply repeating scripture. It's because of what Jesus did at the cross Lamad!!! This is very foundational to why Jesus said "the ruler of this world is cast out." Jesus was paying for our sins so HOW then can Satan accuse us before God in heaven anymore?? Jesus paid for our sins SO SATAN HAS NO GROUNDS TO ACCUSE US BEFORE GOD...which means he has NO PLACE IN HEAVEN ANYOMRE. He is then cast down BECAUSE AS THE SONG SAYS...JESUS PAID IT ALL!!!

When Jesus said "NOW the ruler of this world will be cast out"...Revelation 12:7-12 is the point!!! What you have there Lamad is a picture of the scene in heaven...just as Jesus said in John 12:29-31!!!

Think about that.

iamlamad said:

*You haven't shown anything in scripture that makes your point of 6000 years...because you can't

Why do you think John called it a "mystery?" Can you give another resonable explanation as to why at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, then, and only then was Michael allowed to kick Satan from the heavenly realms? I say it is because Adam's lease (the book with the seals) ENDED at the end of 6000 years. The 7th thousand years belongs to Jesus Christ. CAn you come up with another reason why Jesus' 1000 year reign will be 1000 years? Why not 5000? Why not 500? And why will it begin at the end of man's 6000 years of rule on earth?

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Still you've made NO POINT Lamad...and you're very wrong about what "the mystery" is. Here are a few verses to help you understand what "the mystery" is:
Ephesians 4:1-10;
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

That's "THE MYSTERY" Lamad! That through the gospel God adds the Gentiles to the church and Jews and Gentiles become one in Christ.

If you doubt that...do a search on "the mystery" through the NT.

iamlamad said:

*You have yet to answer how Jesus can have "all authority" as Matthew 28:18 says...and not be reigning. Paul says in a few passages that Jesus is reigning too, So simply answer these questions:

OF COURSE Jesus is reigning, but ONLY over the Kingdom of GOD on earth...meaning HIS BODY on earth.

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No Lamad that's YOUR explanation...the passage says clearly that Jesus was given all power IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. It DOES NOT say the kingdom of God only"...and further more it SAYS ALL AUTHORITY.

iamlamad said:

There is a time for everything. It is not TIME yet for the Kingdoms of the earth to be handed over to Jesus. Before that can happen, the first half of the 70th week must take place, with the first 6 trumpet judgments. Can you not understand, we are still in the age of Grace, and it is not yet TIME for judgment to begin - but it is getting very close! This age of grace will end with the pretrib rapture of the church.

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NO. The time is now! You ignore too much that is clear! Listen to Paul in Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Those thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorites are in the world...AND JESUS IS OVER THEM TOO!!!

iamlamad said:

Read the passage Lamad...if you simply do that objectively you will see Paul says:
*We who are alive will NOT preceed those who are asleep (dead).

*The DEAD IN CHRIST will rise first...THEN we who remain will be caught up.

So if the "dead in Christ" rise FIRST Lamad...then we who are alive are caught up...IT IS A RESURRECTION first with a rapture of live believers when Christ returns.

I have not problem with you calling it a resurrection......but the body of Christ in general calls it the "rapture" of the church. It is the catching away of the church, both those who died in Christ and those who are alive in Christ. Jesus comes to the AIR, not to the ground. It is not His coming on the white horse. He comes first FOR His bride. He comes 7 + years later WITH His Bride. Paul tells us that HIS gathering will come as the trigger for the SIGNS of the day of the Lord, exactly as we see it in Rev. 6. The signs come first, the great earthquake (caused by the dead in Christ rising) then the sun turning dark and the moon into blood, exactly as Joel said, and then people KNOWING the day of His wrath has come. The DAY starts at the 7th seal, and with the first trumpet judgment. Jesus does not come on the white horse until Rev. 19, 7 plus years AFTER Jesus comes FOR His bride. John 14 shows us where we go after we are caught up. It is plain and simple, we you read with no preconceived glasses. John and Paul are in perfect agreement. John saw the raptured church (and resurrected for your benefit) in heaven, around the throne, in Rev. 7.

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Here's your problem Lamad...all that stuff you added IS NOT IN THE PASSAGE!

iamlamad said:

Jesus said it pretty clearly in John 5:28, 29:
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Again, hung by a macro verse! When will you learn?

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You abandon your macro NONSENSE when you do a word study on "hour" and how it applies in these passages. Please do that as soon as possible.

iamlamad said:

Interesting you want to tell me what I know. I resent that because the logical conclusion is that you're saying I'm intentionally misrepresenting the scriptures. That's pretty presumptuous of you.

All I am saying is your theories are BOGUS, and not according to the intent of the Author of the scriptures. I do not believe you are intentionally misrepresenting anything; I just think you don't understand the truth of the scriptures, so have wild theories that will be proven wrong. You are on a public forum, teaching false doctrines, far outside the "pale of Orthodoxy." There are untold millions of believers on earth that know Jesus is coming soon for the pretrib rapture; then coming again 7+ years later to set up His earthly Kingdom. This has been general knowledge in the church worldwide for many years. Yes, I understand there are denominations that are ignorant of these scriptures; but I am speaking of the worldwide body of Christ in general.

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So far I'm effectively refuting your theories Lamad...so where's the bogusness? You're basically coming back with more and more that is actually all being shown to be simple improper correlation of the scriptures.

iamlamad said:

Jesus gave us plenty of warnings. What will happen when Jesus DOES come pretrib for His bride, and many are lukewarm, or else just NOT WATCHING?

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iamlamad said:

ebedmelech, they are going to be LEFT BEHIND to face both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. This is NOT with will of our Father! HE has set no appointment for us, for this 70th week. This week is for ISRAEL, not for the church. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Furthermore...I'm not subject to your professor or any professor for that matter. If you *think* many are closer than I fine..."the day" will reveal it...

Finally, we can agree: you are subject to your OWN desires and will.

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Once again implication by you Lamad? It doesn't matter...I undersand your frustration.

iamlamad said:

Well...let me help you out.."macro" doesn't even enter the point. That's something YOU inserted. I pointed out why Jesus stopped at that point of the passage of Isaiah 61...and that was because He knew what part of a twofold prophecy He fulfilled.

Lastly, when it comes to the 70 weeks...Jesus fulfilled the 70 weeks. I won't even go through that again with you...because we've been there before[/COLOR].

You go ahead and believe this - for it is your choice. But Jesus will come pretrib, and you will not be watching, and will be left behind. It is as simple as that. May I suggest you read and FOLLOW Luke 21:36? PRAY that you be found worthy to escape what is coming.

Just so you cannot tell God that no one warned you: ...! And this will be your chance after you find yourself left behind.

One thing that will trouble you a LOT is, you will be left behind of your own doing. It will be your own fault, and you will KNOW IT, and that will torture you. Hunger is a terrible thing. Thirst is even worse. I guess you will refuse the mark, so you will not be able to buy or sell anything. These are just things you need to be thinking about NOW, since your mind is made up.

LAMAD

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Lamad...you always try to imply my salvation is at issue...the funny part...is Jesus NEVER attatched salvation to anything but believing on Him and the sacrifice He made on the cross, living as His witness, and looking to His coming again.

YOU get frustrated that I don't agree with your eschatology and so now you carry your erroneous eschatology to say I will be left behind?? Left behind from what? Jesus said it's "THE LAST DAY"....you can keep Tim Lahaye, and all the others who hold to a pretrib rapture.

The scriptures are consistent about this *if* one uses proper correlation.

I'm done.

Ebedmelech wrote,
Originally Posted by iamlamad Once again this is quite selective reading Lamad. Jesus NEVER ceased to be God. He was 100% man AND 100% God. To say what you're saying is to only venture into what you nor I can understand being only human. JESUS WAS NOT ONLY HUMAN. He demonstrated every attribute omniscieince. omnipotence, and omniprescence as He walked this earth.

Your theory is what's way off Lamad

It seems you don't read very closely. I wrote: "Yes, He was the same person (G0d)"
You are right, He never CEASED being God. In human flesh, He was the very same person that spoke and light was created. But when He became flesh, He laid aside all his Godly attributes. In other worlds, in a human body, He could not longer be everywhere at once. However, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit could be everywhere at once.

He demonstrated every attribute omniscieince. omnipotence, and omniprescence as He walked this earth.

Well, suppose you show us some scripture to back this up? There is no doubt, God the Father spoke from heaven. And there is no doubt the Holy Spirit performed every miracle Jesus performed; that is, the Holy Spirit was the POWER behind every miracle. Jesus did no miracle by His power as the second person of the trinity. If He did His miracles as GOD, how then could He say that we would do the same works? But If He did the great works by the power of the Holy Spirit anointing, then indeed, He could and did say it. Did you forget about the verse that said, "

[FONT=arial, sans-serif][/FONT]​

How God anointed Jesus

[FONT=arial, sans-serif] of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who[/FONT]​

went about doing good

[FONT=arial, sans-serif], and healing all that were oppressed of the devil..."

The truth is, Jesus did no miracles until He was anointed. Go back and study it, and show yourself approved!

LAMAD
[/FONT]​

ebedmelech said:

Once again this is quite selective reading Lamad. Jesus NEVER ceased to be God. He was 100% man AND 100% God. To say what you're saying is to only venture into what you nor I can understand being only human. JESUS WAS NOT ONLY HUMAN. He demonstrated every attribute omniscieince. omnipotence, and omniprescence as He walked this earth.

Your theory is what's way off Lamad


Once again this take a clear reading of scripture on your part. Certainly verses 19 & 20 are in the future. How are you making a point?

How are we still waiting on verse 20 Lamad??? This is you failing to understand judgment language God used in the OT. This is the very language God used coming in judgment on Egypt in Isaiah 13:9-11. What was going on there? Isaiah was prophesying the judgment on Babylon by the Medes.
Isaiah 13:9-11:
9 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.

This portion of Joel is Jerusalem's destruction (which would come in AD 70). The language is the same as Isaiah 13 and Joel prophesied before Isaiah!

In Joel 2 there are two judgments prophesied by him...Jerusalem before Christ, which came at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar...which is Joel 2:1-17...note verse 10:
10 Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble, The sun and the moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness.

Joel then gives the prophecy of the return of the Jews to the land in verses 18-27, and the coming of Christ!

So now...look at the portion Peter repeats in Joe 2:30, 31:30:
“I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Once again YOU must let scripture say what it means! This is the same language Jesus used in Matthew 24:29:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Are you noticing that every time God prophesies judgment, HE USES COSMIC LANGUAGE??? This is what you miss...this is typical symbolic judgment language. There are 3 undeniable examples. But let's take it a step further to make the point...watch the language Job uses when he is afflicted in Job 3:4, 5:
4 “May that day be darkness; Let not God above care for it, Nor light shine on it.
5 “Let darkness and black gloom claim it; Let a cloud settle on it; Let the blackness of the day terrify it.

See the cosmic language of Job describing his distress??? This is what you miss sticking to a "literal rule of interpretation" because you won't allow the language to says how it is to be applied!

I will continue my response with the next post

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OF COURSE those scriptures had meaning for those living in that day. But if you think that is the only meaning, you are simply mistaken. If you think there will not be a 70th week in our near future, just hang around. My whole point in writing is that you will not be prepared, and will be banging your head against some wall, wondering why you were left behind. There is still a day in our future when the sun will turn dark, and the moon into blood. John wrote about long after Jerusalem was destroyed.

Are you by any chance oblivious to the four blood red moons in a row, coming in 2014-2015, with each falling on a date of a Jewish feast? Well, they are coming, even if you are not aware of it. The NASA website shows them. And between the middle two total eclispes of the moon, there will be a total eclipse of the sun. It will indeed be, the sun turning dark and the moon turning into blood (in appearance). A tetrad of four red moons - on anniversary dates of Jewish feasts happened in 1967, when Israel was at war, and again in 1949, when Israel was at war. It just could be the Day of the Lord spoken of by Joel will be only a year away. If so, the rapture of the church could be sooner. Will you be ready? Will you be watching?

Or will you still be imagining all this is history?

LAMAD

Abedmelech wrote,

No. The person caught is you Lamad...because again you really miss what Jesus is saying in John 12:30-32. Go read Revelation 12:7-12...perhaps you'll get a clue. Satan has always been the "God of this world"...so Paul is simply repeating scripture. It's because of what Jesus did at the cross Lamad!!! This is very foundational to why Jesus said "the ruler of this world is cast out." Jesus was paying for our sins so HOW then can Satan accuse us before God in heaven anymore?? Jesus paid for our sins SO SATAN HAS NO GROUNDS TO ACCUSE US BEFORE GOD...which means he has NO PLACE IN HEAVEN ANYOMRE. He is then cast down BECAUSE AS THE SONG SAYS...JESUS PAID IT ALL!!!

When Jesus said "NOW the ruler of this world will be cast out"...Revelation 12:7-12 is the point!!! What you have there Lamad is a picture of the scene in heaven...just as Jesus said in John 12:29-31!!!

Think about that.

Again you missed the truth. Satan only became the god of this world when Adam sinned. Satan was god of this world when Jesus made his statement. And Satan is god of this world TODAY. But the day will come, as you read in Rev. 12, when he will NO LONGER be the god of this world, for at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world will be transferred to our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will refresh your mind on what you wrote:
So Jesus just straightened you out there...He said NOW the ruler (Satan), of this world will be cast out. What do you think "now" means.

Perhaps we had different ideas about what "cast out" meant. It seems you mean Satan can no longer accuse us. I meant, Satan will remain the god of this world until the 7th trumpet sounds, sometime in our future.

LAMAD

Ebedmelech wrote,
Still you've made NO POINT Lamad...and you're very wrong about what "the mystery" is. Here are a few verses to help you understand what "the mystery" is:
Ephesians 4:1-10;
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

That's "THE MYSTERY" Lamad! That through the gospel God adds the Gentiles to the church and Jews and Gentiles become one in Christ.

If you doubt that...do a search on "the mystery" through the NT.

I used to think that was the mystery of Rev. 10 also. But this does not even come close to explaining why the Kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus RIGHT AT the 7th trumpet. And why immediately after the 7th trumpet, Satan is cast down from heaven. BOTH of these events is still future. You did a good job of showing how Gentiles are made a part of the Gospel, but this is the wrong mystery! You have to dig for the right one.

Think about it: why after almost 6000 years, finally the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus? And why at the 7th trumpet? The scriptures you quoted were fulfilled almost 2000 years ago; while the 7th trumpet is still in our future. Put this one on the back burner for a while; perhaps you will eventually understand it. The answer is really very simple, and it is tied to the scroll in the Father's right hand. Adam's lease on earth will END at the 7th trumpet.

LAMAD

Ebedmelech wrote,
Originally Posted by iamlamad
No Lamad that's YOUR explanation...the passage says clearly that Jesus was given all power IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. It DOES NOT say the kingdom of God only"...and further more it SAYS ALL AUTHORITY.
Originally Posted by iamlamad

There is a time for everything. It is not TIME yet for the Kingdoms of the earth to be handed over to Jesus. Before that can happen, the first half of the 70th week must take place, with the first 6 trumpet judgments. Can you not understand, we are still in the age of Grace, and it is not yet TIME for judgment to begin - but it is getting very close! This age of grace will end with the pretrib rapture of the church.
​

NO. The time is now! You ignore too much that is clear! Listen to Paul in Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Those thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorites are in the world...AND JESUS IS OVER THEM TOO!!!

I think we are not clearly understanding each other. God is ruler over ALL THINGS. But at this time, He is ALLOWING Satan to be the god of this world. Why? Because as Solomon said, there is a time for everything. The age of Grace is not over yet, and God is not willing that ANY should parish. He is waiting for the largest possible harvest.

So I will agree that God has all authority, but yet at the same time, Satan is the god of this world. Can you agree with this statement?

Do you agree that at the 7th trumpet IN OUR FUTURE, Satan will be cast down from the heavenlies to roam the earth with great wrath, for his time is short?

Please make this clear, what do you believe happened when Jesus said NOW? Do you imagine that Rev. 11 & 12 happened way back then?

LAMAD

Ebedmelech wrote,

Originally Posted by iamlamad Here's your problem Lamad...all that stuff you added IS NOT IN THE PASSAGE!

If you would read without those pesky preconceived glasses, you will see that everything I said is in passages in scripture. Now, let's see which statement you have a problem with: I will number them for clarity:

1) It is the catching away of the church, both those who died in Christ and those who are alive in Christ.

2) Jesus comes to the AIR, not to the ground.

3) It is not His coming on the white horse.

4) He comes first FOR His bride.

5) He comes 7 + years later WITH His Bride.

6) Paul tells us that HIS gathering will come as the trigger for the SIGNS of the day of the Lord, exactly as we see it in Rev. 6.

7) The signs come first, the great earthquake (caused by the dead in Christ rising) then the sun turning dark and the moon into blood, exactly as Joel said, and then people KNOWING the day of His wrath has come.

8) The DAY starts at the 7th seal, and with the first trumpet judgment.

9) Jesus does not come on the white horse until Rev. 19, 7 plus years AFTER Jesus comes FOR His bride.

10) John 14 shows us where we go after we are caught up.

11) John saw the raptured church (and resurrected for your benefit) in heaven, around the throne, in Rev. 7.

Now which of these do you not believe?

LAMAD

Ebedmelech wrote,
Originally Posted by iamlamad
You abandon your macro NONSENSE when you do a word study on "hour" and how it applies in these passages. Please do that as soon as possible.

Do you AGREE with me then that all who rise from the dead WILL NOT rise at the very same hour? Do you agree that the wicked dead rise at least 1000 years after the righteous dead?

LAMAD

Ebedmelech wrote,
Originally Posted by iamlamad

Interesting you want to tell me what I know. I resent that because the logical conclusion is that you're saying I'm intentionally misrepresenting the scriptures. That's pretty presumptuous of you.

All I am saying is your theories are BOGUS, and not according to the intent of the Author of the scriptures. I do not believe you are intentionally misrepresenting anything; I just think you don't understand the truth of the scriptures, so have wild theories that will be proven wrong. You are on a public forum, teaching false doctrines, far outside the "pale of Orthodoxy." There are untold millions of believers on earth that know Jesus is coming soon for the pretrib rapture; then coming again 7+ years later to set up His earthly Kingdom. This has been general knowledge in the church worldwide for many years. Yes, I understand there are denominations that are ignorant of these scriptures; but I am speaking of the worldwide body of Christ in general.
​

So far I'm effectively refuting your theories Lamad...so where's the bogusness? You're basically coming back with more and more that is actually all being shown to be simple improper correlation of the scriptures.

Sorry, all you have done is show that you don't understand end times scriptures. If you don't believe in a pretrib rapture, that is a great example of lack of understanding. If you don't believe in a future 70th week, again it is a great example of your lack of understanding.

LAMAD

Ebemelech wrote,
Lamad...you always try to imply my salvation is at issue...the funny part...is Jesus NEVER attatched salvation to anything but believing on Him and the sacrifice He made on the cross, living as His witness, and looking to His coming again.

YOU get frustrated that I don't agree with your eschatology and so now you carry your erroneous eschatology to say I will be left behind?? Left behind from what? Jesus said it's "THE LAST DAY"....you can keep Tim Lahaye, and all the others who hold to a pretrib rapture.

The scriptures are consistent about this *if* one uses proper correlation.

I'm done.

I don't question anyone's born again experience; that is between them and God. I did not write the verse about being lukewarm; John did that. I did not write all the verses about WATCHING. Others wrote it, I just believe it.

You have made if VERY CLEAR that you don't believe Jesus is coming pretrib to gather His bride. I guess you don't even believe there will be a future 70th week and Day of the Lord following His pretrib gathering. Just so you know, everything from the fifth seal on is FUTURE to us today. We are waiting on the rapture and then the 6th seal.

Your lack of belief in Jesus coming before the "trib" will not prevent it from happening! You said left behind from what? It is very clear in John 14. Jesus will come and get His bride PRETRIB and take them to heaven. If you are left behind, you will not be a part of His bride. You will MISS the 7 years in heaven. You will MISS the marriage and supper of the lamb, which will take place in heaven. Perhaps, if you lose your head in the terror that will follow the abomination soon to come, you can still make it. I cannot make this any clearer: Jesus is coming pretrib for those WATCHING for His coming. It is clear you are not watching, for you don't even believe it!

By the way, I am not frustrated, I am only amazed at your lack of understanding of the truth of scripture.

LAMAD

iamlamad said:

Ebemelech wrote,
Lamad...you always try to imply my salvation is at issue...the funny part...is Jesus NEVER attatched salvation to anything but believing on Him and the sacrifice He made on the cross, living as His witness, and looking to His coming again.

YOU get frustrated that I don't agree with your eschatology and so now you carry your erroneous eschatology to say I will be left behind?? Left behind from what? Jesus said it's "THE LAST DAY"....you can keep Tim Lahaye, and all the others who hold to a pretrib rapture.

The scriptures are consistent about this *if* one uses proper correlation.

I'm done.

I don't question anyone's born again experience; that is between them and God. I did not write the verse about being lukewarm; John did that. I did not write all the verses about WATCHING. Others wrote it, I just believe it.

You have made if VERY CLEAR that you don't believe Jesus is coming pretrib to gather His bride. I guess you don't even believe there will be a future 70th week and Day of the Lord following His pretrib gathering. Just so you know, everything from the fifth seal on is FUTURE to us today. We are waiting on the rapture and then the 6th seal.

Your lack of belief in Jesus coming before the "trib" will not prevent it from happening! You said left behind from what? It is very clear in John 14. Jesus will come and get His bride PRETRIB and take them to heaven. If you are left behind, you will not be a part of His bride. You will MISS the 7 years in heaven. You will MISS the marriage and supper of the lamb, which will take place in heaven. Perhaps, if you lose your head in the terror that will follow the abomination soon to come, you can still make it. I cannot make this any clearer: Jesus is coming pretrib for those WATCHING for His coming. It is clear you are not watching, for you don't even believe it!

By the way, I am not frustrated, I am only amazed at your lack of understanding of the truth of scripture.

LAMAD

Click to expand...

Likewise...so I guess when "the day comes" we'll know.

Lamad,
the expression AofD began as 'the rebellion that desolates' in Dan 8. Does that give you a clue as to what it will eventually apply to? There needs to be a really good reason for breaking up Dan 9's 490 years and it needs to be in the text itself; not a 'theological' system reason.

The bizarre thing about your fear-based theology is that the 'wrath' of the tribulation talk about is never quite in mesh with reality. If it is the same thing as Rom 2, then scores of people have missed it. If it is just those people alive at this coming, then Rom 2 was a waste of expression. What really matters, at the end of the day--or end of the world--is that the broad statements of Rom 2 are true, not whether the pile of details about trib/rap/mid/mill can be sorted out or not. Rom 2 will be the experience of every person, living or dead, and Rom 3 explains justification from our sins in light of that fact.

And here you are pouncing on a believer who believes Rom 2 and 3 quite readily, and you are making him feel guilty for not believing your treatment of the chrono-mechanical details of your time of 'wrath' which is apparently outside of or separate from Rom 2, which is universal, which makes your 'time of wrath' appear foolish.

When Jesus uttered Mt 24A in answer about the crashing of the temple, he gave believers a warning and signals to watch to get them out of Judea. You may be thinking he will do the same today, but I wouldn't count on it. Remember that act of wrath (the DofJ) was not upon all mankind; it was to wrap up the terms of a violated covenant. There are practicalities we can address, but in that day, God's concern was to protect and preserve the church beyond the age and place of Judaism, and it went on and thrived all over, along with persecution, which sometimes helped it spread rather than hindered.

Interplanner said:

Lamad,
the expression AofD began as 'the rebellion that desolates' in Dan 8. Does that give you a clue as to what it will eventually apply to? There needs to be a really good reason for breaking up Dan 9's 490 years and it needs to be in the text itself; not a 'theological' system reason.

The bizarre thing about your fear-based theology is that the 'wrath' of the tribulation talk about is never quite in mesh with reality. If it is the same thing as Rom 2, then scores of people have missed it. If it is just those people alive at this coming, then Rom 2 was a waste of expression. What really matters, at the end of the day--or end of the world--is that the broad statements of Rom 2 are true, not whether the pile of details about trib/rap/mid/mill can be sorted out or not. Rom 2 will be the experience of every person, living or dead, and Rom 3 explains justification from our sins in light of that fact.

And here you are pouncing on a believer who believes Rom 2 and 3 quite readily, and you are making him feel guilty for not believing your treatment of the chrono-mechanical details of your time of 'wrath' which is apparently outside of or separate from Rom 2, which is universal, which makes your 'time of wrath' appear foolish.

When Jesus uttered Mt 24A in answer about the crashing of the temple, he gave believers a warning and signals to watch to get them out of Judea. You may be thinking he will do the same today, but I wouldn't count on it. Remember that act of wrath (the DofJ) was not upon all mankind; it was to wrap up the terms of a violated covenant. There are practicalities we can address, but in that day, God's concern was to protect and preserve the church beyond the age and place of Judaism, and it went on and thrived all over, along with persecution, which sometimes helped it spread rather than hindered.

Click to expand...

After all this time, DID YOU NOT READ?

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Now, answer this question truthfully; did I separate this week from the first 69, or did Daniel do this?

Rom. 2 speaks of the very same DAY of Wrath that is coming. God gives us many verses so we can know for sure what is coming. It was NOT a waste of Paul's or the Holy Spirit's time. Those that first read Romans, or those in that day that died without reading it, and continued to live as Paul wrote, "after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath" have spend the last 2000 years almost, in the fires of hell. Those same kind of people that are alive when Jesus comes for His bride will be left behind to see what a world without God will be like. Before the 70th week has ended, most, if not all of them will be GONE. If by some miracle someone survives still unrepentant, they will be declared a GOAT, and cast into hell. NO ONE who is against God will be left alive to enter the Millennial reign of Christ.

Look, it is GOOD that you believe Rom. 2 & 3 and the entire book of Romans, but you should also believe Revelation; it is ALL the word of God. Did you MISS what Paul wrote? Look at it again: "wrath against the day of wrath." See, even Paul knows there is a DAY OF WRATH coming. John wrote it like this: "For the great day of his wrath is come;" If you believe Paul, then believe John ALSO! This "Day of wrath" is ANYTHING but foolish! God is going to destroy this world and the sinners in it.

I am sorry if you thought I was pouncing on YOU. I don't pounce on people, usually - but I DO pounce on false doctrine. There are some here on this forum, that are going to be left behind. Someone must warn them.

Jesus not only gave warnings to leave Jerusalem when they see it surrounded by armies. He also warned about the coming abomination which is in the Day of the Lord and 70th week. This day is coming, whether or not you believe it.

LAMAD

swainkas said:

PeterAV,

Thanks for your comments. I would like to point out that my original post in this thread does exactly what you suggest. It compares scripture with scripture, and more than that, is trying to bring up the point that when we study the words of Christ (the words of God Himself while in the flesh), then we should use the accounts closest to Him. Because I believe that scripture should be used for the discussion, and more so, that the words of Christ trump all others, that is exactly why I bring up the point that Matthew 24 documents the words of Christ as collected by someone who got them secondhand. While the words in Mark are those documented from someone who was actually present during the conversation, and are therefore an eyewitness account, and thus, even though it is hard for Bible-believing Christians to accept, Mark's account is the more valuable of the two.

Note, in Matthew's account (the secondhand account) there are three questions asked, while in Mark's (the eyewitness account) there are only two questions, and one of them is quite redundant. In Mark's account, the question "and what will be the sign of Your coming" is not even asked. This is critical to our understanding. Jesus, from the only eyewitness account we have on the discussion, is not discussing His Second Coming.

If we are to allow Jesus’ words to rule all others, we must then
seek to find which of His words are the closest to what He actually
said. Because Matthew was obviously not telling the account
of Matthew 24 and 25 from an eyewitness perspective, according
to Mark’s/Peter’s words in Mark 13:3-4, and because Matthew has a
tendency to collect many sayings of Jesus and categorize them into
nice buckets of data on similar topics, we must choose the more
lean account of Peter’s eyewitness retelling to Mark for the purpose
of looking at the “Last Days” discussion covered by Matthew, Mark,​

and Luke.

Some points taken from Heresy, by Keith Swainson

Click to expand...

*******
Scripture is scripture.
All scripture is profitable.
Not selected scriptures.
You are using opinions to persuade your opinions.
You need to stick to the scriptures.
Matthew 24= Rev 6-8
Same topics and same order and same Jesus.
Do you think Jesus knows his own material?
*******
All scripture compliments each other. One scripture is not above another.
You must never CHANGE the word of God to suit mere opinions. Curses and plagues promised for them that do.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Many scholars believe that the lengths of similar materials is a key. The shorter the passage, the closer you are to the original material. You might say Luke is the longest because there are many things that relate to the Jewish War. And he wasn't there originally and did the interviews that he mentions in ch 1.

Mark might be the closest to the original then. The original was oral.