Infant Baptism and the Lutheran church

This is such a tough issue, I've seen Biblical evidence and heard debate on both sides of the issue by well learned theologians.
We do know that Baptism is NOT required for salvation, and yet there are passages that state clearly that Baptism does save you.

I have a hard time with this issue because if Baptism saves, and it is God who is doing the saving by His means of grace and it is nothing we do then why is it not a lasting salvation? The Lutherans teach that we can and sometimes do reject and abandon our faith. We push people to baptize their babies for their salvation but then nullify that salvation by saying that we can turn away from it and overcome what God has done.

I don't know that I'm not saying this well and I know I'm gonna get flamed, but I really want understand .

It's all very simple if you start with Jesus' institution of Baptism then go to the epistles to learn what Baptism is and what God accomplishes through it. Then you can read Acts with the proper understanding and perspective of Baptism.

Trying to understand Baptism from Acts is like trying to learn how to drive by watching a car drive down the road. You can't understand it just from seeing it in action, you have to be instructed on what you are seeing take place first.

Ministrymama said:

This is such a tough issue, I've seen Biblical evidence and heard debate on both sides of the issue by well learned theologians.
We do know that Baptism is NOT required for salvation, and yet there are passages that state clearly that Baptism does save you.

I have a hard time with this issue because if Baptism saves, and it is God who is doing the saving by His means of grace and it is nothing we do then why is it not a lasting salvation? The Lutherans teach that we can and sometimes do reject and abandon our faith. We push people to baptize their babies for their salvation but then nullify that salvation by saying that we can turn away from it and overcome what God has done.

I don't know that I'm not saying this well and I know I'm gonna get flamed, but I really want understand .

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Baptism is a one of several means through which God saves. In that sense, baptism isn't required for salvation, as it is not the one and only way God saves. But, the Bible is clear in telling us to be baptized, so it's not an optional thing either. (The thief on the cross next to Christ was most likely not baptized, so that's an example of how someone can be saved without baptism.)

Correct, baptism is a wonderful gift and one we should appreciate but it is not required and it is not the only means of salvation. If a parent is not ready for whatever reason to baptize their child I think, although we should encourage toward it, we should not condemn them for choosing to wait either.

Tangible said:

It's all very simple if you start with Jesus' institution of Baptism then go to the epistles to learn what Baptism is and what God accomplishes through it. Then you can read Acts with the proper understanding and perspective of Baptism.

Trying to understand Baptism from Acts is like trying to learn how to drive by watching a car drive down the road. You can't understand it just from seeing it in action, you have to be instructed on what you are seeing take place first.

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Really like this analogy.

Ministrymama said:

Correct, baptism is a wonderful gift and one we should appreciate but it is not required and it is not the only means of salvation. If a parent is not ready for whatever reason to baptize their child I think, although we should encourage toward it, we should not condemn them for choosing to wait either.

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The bible is fairly clear that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. It goes on to say that those who do not believe will be condemned. Granted, it doesn't say those who aren't baptized will be condemned, but given the first part of that, why would anyone wait? I can't really think of any good reason to wait, to be honest. Do you have any reasons?

Alienating a parent against the Lutheran church and possibly Christ for not baptizing their child as WE see fit might just be a reason to wait!

I joined the Lutheran church several years before my husband joined me. Had he not agreed with baptizing our child because he was not yet a Christian or not in agreement I would have waited. As it was, my faith and faithfulness in being involved in my church caused some serious problems in our marriage for a while. Had I gone against my husbands wishes may have alienated him from God altogether.

Ministrymama said:

Alienating a parent against the Lutheran church and possibly Christ for not baptizing their child as WE see fit might just be a reason to wait!

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Is a parents wishes more important than God? Or is God first in your life?

I joined the Lutheran church several years before my husband joined me. Had he not agreed with baptizing our child because he was not yet a Christian or not in agreement I would have waited. As it was, my faith and faithfulness in being involved in my church caused some serious problems in our marriage for a while. Had I gone against my husbands wishes may have alienated him from God altogether.

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I just find it scary to play around with salvation based on the whims of a partner. My ex was not Lutheran, even after he took classes and made a public proclamation. He was totally against me baptizing my son in the Lutheran church. That didn't stop me from doing it. I didn't care if it alienated him. Standing on biblical principles is way more important than feelings.

If you KNEW without a doubt that your baby would be damned to hell if you didn't baptize it and it died, would you still wait on your husband?

If you believe that without baptism your child is going to hell and that is the only hope of salvation that your child has then yes by all means go for it. Not all Christians would agree, and they have valid points based on scripture too.

We know that God alone will judge, and determine salvation and not everyone who believes is baptized. We also know many people who were baptized as children that do not have any type of faith, and consider themselves unbelievers. Are they saved?

How would I feel if my husband joined a cult and told me he was taking my kids into services and having weird rites preformed over them of which I did not approve, but he felt strongly were in live with his beliefs?

Matthew 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

If I was in a situation where my husband would hate me or even leave me, I would still do what I believe is very important to do, such as having my child baptized.

Ministrymama said:

Alienating a parent against the Lutheran church and possibly Christ for not baptizing their child as WE see fit might just be a reason to wait!

I joined the Lutheran church several years before my husband joined me. Had he not agreed with baptizing our child because he was not yet a Christian or not in agreement I would have waited. As it was, my faith and faithfulness in being involved in my church caused some serious problems in our marriage for a while. Had I gone against my husbands wishes may have alienated him from God altogether.

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It's not just as "WE see fit" though. It's how God sees fit, since He tells us to baptize.

Ministrymama, you might want to talk with your pastor concerning the Lutheran views on Baptism and the importance of it.

To the OP. I understand your concerns about not wanting to cause strife with your wife. All the more reason for you both to sit down with a pastor and discuss your fears.

I do understand the Lutheran views about Baptism, my pastor and I have talked.

I also very much understand the unity of marriage and the absolute importance of honoring God in marriage and being one flesh and submitting to one another out of love. The OP was not saying he was not going to baptize his baby, but saying that he hoped in time as the spiritual leader of his home to bring his wife and child along in the faith.

IMO I believe he is doing the right thing by teaching his child and by honoring his wife and growing in his own faith.

Ministrymama said:

I do understand the Lutheran views about Baptism, my pastor and I have talked.

I also very much understand the unity of marriage and the absolute importance of honoring God in marriage and being one flesh and submitting to one another out of love. The OP was not saying he was not going to baptize his baby, but saying that he hoped in time as the spiritual leader of his home to bring his wife and child along in the faith.

IMO I believe he is doing the right thing by teaching his child and by honoring his wife and growing in his own faith.

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But if he is actively NOT baptizing just to keep the harmony in his marriage, that would be wrong.

If a Lutheran pastor ever counseled someone to wait to baptize their child in order to maintain harmony in their marriage, I would question that pastor's learning and teaching. It is not in line with what conservative Lutheranism teaches, at the very least, and I'm pretty sure ELCA holds to the same views about baptism.

mjar89 said:

Hello,

I've been looking for a church to call my "home". During the process I found a wonderful WELS church that I love and about to become a member of here soon after I complete my remaining introduction lessons. My concern that's been haunting me for awhile now is WELS believe in infant baptism, which I believe in original sin, but my wife does not attend with me and nor do I think she intends to. I have an 8 month old son who I want to bring to the services. My wife doesn't want to baptize him at this age since he can't make his decision. She doesn't mind me taking him to get educated. Will I be looked down upon if respectfully decline to baptize my son at this time? Normally I'd go to my pastor of this question but I feel like it's such a big deal according to my intro classes.

In Christ

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mjar,
While you never know about the individual people in a congregation, it would be rather unusual for you to be looked down upon. Most would probably even assume that an 8 month old has been baptized and it wouldn't come up unless you bring it up.

As for baptizing against the wishes of a parent, that hasn't been the historic practice of the Lutheran churches. Your wife misunderstands but probably actually thinks baptizing an infant is rebellion against God and as such she really isn't in a place where she could consent to it.

Her position of course sets up lots of problems. For one, multiple paths to salvation. Adults are saved by faith, infants, who cannot have faith, are saved because they are. You mention of course the idea of original sin.

So under your beliefs a person is conceived in sin and needs Christ in order to be saved by faith. Her beliefs a person starts out saved, then must fall in some manner to lose his salvation, and then needs to become saved again. Probably also argues once saved always saved but of course if your child is currently saved in her mind, once is evidently not enough.

The groups that lost their connections and made some things up have a hard time and it's best to be patient. They are so sincere and arguing tends to just harden people.

One problem for your children if they grow up in a Lutheran congregation is that the issue of baptism as an older person will tend not to come up. They won't see many older people get baptized, there is no event designed to push them towards it or anything so you have to be the one to talk to them and it's importance and how it's through respect for their mother and the office God placed her into as their mother that put baptism off, but how baptism is normally done is not with waiting but comes at the start of a families walk with Christ. That is not to say that they are saved by you, but to recognize that having believing parents is also not a worthless thing.

The first baptism in the Bible is the baptism unto Moses. Something the Bible references as desiring that we not be unaware of it. It definitely had infants and it definitely had water applied in the rain referenced in Psalms. So it was sprinkling. There was of course immersion that day-for the Egyptians. In any case, the parents who carried the infants by and large died in the wilderness and it was the infants who were carried who inherited the promised land-a type of heaven.

Best wishes. Haven't posted for over a year but couldn't resist.

Marv

I was Army as well. Its been a few years, lol. 1984-1987, Stationed in Germany and then at Hunter Airfield in Savannah. I was brought up Baptist and my wife was Lutheran. At first I strongly disagreed with infant baptism but with time I came to believe in it. Give your wife time and talk about it with her and show her your concern but do not force it down her throat. Pray and wait and she will come around in time.