Here is a brief summary of what I (DeaconDean) hold to/believe.

DeaconDean · Nov 14, 2013

Originally posted 5th August 2010, 12:15 AM

In a discussion recently, a member of this area condemned me because they can't, could not, or would not, understand how a person can hold certain beliefs while at the same time rejecting certain beliefs also.

Let me explain.

I believe that John Calvin is correct in his teachings in "The Institutes of Christian Religion" except for his chapters which deal with the "sacraments" and "baptism". I disagree in that there is grace given by participating in communion, and I also disagree with his position on paedobaptism.

I can agree to and agree with the teachings associated with the T.U.L.I.P. out line.

I have a very good knowledge of the doctrines concerning "predestination and election" as far as Reformed Theology teaches, and I agree with it.

I have a very good knowledge of the doctrines concerning being declared "righteous" and "justification". And for the most part, Baptists agree with the Reformed position.

I have a very good knowledge of the doctrines concerning "sanctification" and "holiness".

I have a very, very, good knowledge of, understand, and agree with the Baptist and the Reformed position on salvation and regeneration.

I do not agree with the Reformed position in regards to the authority of Synods and councils.

The Reformed Westminster Confession of Faith said in its article titled "The Civil Magistrate," "...he hath authority and it is his duty to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered and observed for the better effecting whereof he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever transacted in them be according to the mind of God..." (Wesminister Confession of Faith of 1642, Chapter 23, Of the Civil Magistrate)

Baptists believe with the New Testament that the civil magistrate has no right to require a form of religion for us or to punish us for not following the religion he requires. Baptists believe that Jesus Christ is Lord of the church and Lord of the state, but that he does not rule the state through the church nor the church through the state. We believe that the state can never compel men to believe the truth. Only the Holy Spirits quickening work can compel men to do this. Baptists believe that Christians are citizens of two realms: an earthly realm which is ruled over by man, for both the saved and the unsaved, and a heavenly kingdom ruled by the Lord Jesus Christ, We base this partly on the words of our Lord in Matthew 22:17 and 21. For Baptists the church and the world are basically separate and antagonistic to each other. Baptists have no thought and no desire for uniting the two, and Baptists have never been the state religion anywhere.

Click to expand...

Lawrence Justice, Are Baptists Reformed?

Source

I agree with what dispensationalists teach as far as there have dispensations of time in history. And I also believe in a "rapture" where all Christians, Jew and Gentile, will be caught up before the gret tribulation.

But at the same time, I disagree with the position of Dispensationists in that God has two plans of salvation; one involving the Gentiles in this current dispensation, and one for Jews during the millennium.

I ally myself to no creed or confession. I do agree that they are "tools" as to what what we (Baptists) believe, but I will declare no oath to them.

Dr. Jimmy Draper wrote:

A Creed is not a revelation of divine truth; it is not a rule of faith and practice,
but it is a help in both. Creeds have no authority over conscience.

Click to expand...

Ernest Reisinger wrote:

One of the dangers of Creeds and Confessions is using them to bind the conscience. They must never be used to bind the conscience. They can only bind the conscience so far as they are biblical, and they bind only those who voluntarily subscribe to them.

Another danger is allowing Creeds to usurp the place of authority. We do not worship the Creeds. The Bible is our final authority and standard, and it alone. By it we must prove all things. We must not exalt the Creeds above, or equal to the Bible. Creeds are the products of men. However, the respected Creeds are the products of many holy, competent, and seasoned men. The Creeds have proved a safeguard for Christians. They are not independent assertions of truth. They are derived from, and subordinate to, the Bible as the only source and standard of Christian authority.

The Creeds themselves warn against the danger of Creeds. "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men as such are in anything contrary to His word or not contained in it. So that to believe such doctrines, or obey such commands out of conscience is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring of an implicit faith and absolute and blind obedience is to destroy liberty of conscience and reason also." (Philadelphia Confession of Faith, 1742, Chapter 21, part 2).

Click to expand...

So as far as creeds are concerned, I will never be made to affirm, or swear by any "creed or confession".

When it comes to Confessions as a summary of what we believe and where it is found, I agree to three (4):

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession of 1742, The New Hampshire Confession of Faith of 1833, and the Abstract of Principles, The Niagara Conference of 1879.

So, I can believe what 95% of what Reformed Theology and John Calvin teaches, without agreeing to 100% and still call myself a Calvinist.

I can agree to some of what dispensationalism teaches without agreeing to all of what dispeansationalist teach. After all, even Paul uses that word (dispensation; Eph. 3:2).

But according to some, if I agree to one point of dispensationalism, there is no way that I can understand what Reformed theology teaches and because I hold to a belief in a "rapture", that automatically makes me a dispensationalist.

For the most part, what I believe is spelled out above.

If you do not agree with me, fine.

If you start a thread, and I input in it, and you do not want me to put in my two cents worth, then tell me and I'll butt out.

I can call myself a Calvinist and not agree to everything John Calvin taught.

I can agree with some of dispensational teachings while also rejecting other parts and not be a dispensationalist.

I just want you to know where I stand and what I believe.

God Bless

Till all are one.

SoulBap6 · Nov 15, 2013

Understanding Doctrine is the most important issue understanding what some one believes, or a body of people a church and what basis they believe.

I am not a Calvin believer because of the predestination, and I do not believe in Tulip, how ever their our some of what Calvin says I do believe, so again we get in to the nuts and Bolts of doctrine.

I am a Fundamental Baptist and I do believe that many people do not have the fundamentals of Christianity period. I call them Rabbit trail religions the fundamentals are in the Bible but people putting their personal opinion, or doing what seems right in a mans eyes.

I believe that Jesus himself taught us how to live and worship him. The dispensation of how he wanted all things related to God the father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, is written in his word, determining or translating scripture to me or some call it discernment. This is the area where I get very concerned in rightly dividing the Bible. In many religions I compare the Bible to what people our telling me, to see how it compares, or if it exists at all?

I do not know Greek or Hebrew I depend on the word of God KJV revised. I find it to be clear to me. I will be the first to say, that their is much still searching the scriptures, for I find I will never know, as much as I pray I would, but enough to understand how to serve the Lord.

It would take awhile to put down What all I believe The short version is Romans 10:9-17 Have a blest day.

cubanito · Nov 15, 2013

I beileve everything I believe else I would not believe it. Of course, I also believe that some (much?) of what I believe is false. There was a time I believed 1+1=2, then I learned in middle school 1+1 could also = 10 (base 2 mathe, like digital computers or some of our own neurons). Then came High School and now 1+1 could also = 1 (finite mathematics, such as those governing alarm systems, and again, some other of our neurons). Then came college, and linear algebra intorduced me to fractional answers via vector analysis and now, 1+1 = 1, any number between 1 and 2, 2 and 10. Then came an old textblook on theoreretical math which added 0 to the list. Then came a series of books, and a lot of Wikepidia, which finally led me to first the continuum hypothesis and then Kurt Godell, who added "possibilities which no real system of thought that includes counting can ever account for". Then came a historical perspective which, of course, brought me back to the Bible: Titus 1:12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” Interesting, "a protphet of their own" references Eupeminide's paradox which, in it's stronger form led to the complete collapse of rationalism, and gave birth to post-modernism. Kurt Godell, who stood at the top of the collapse of apodictic mathematics and declared that his 2 incompleteness theorems were a mathematical PROOF that God existed. Then Dr Godell went insane and starved himself to death convinced people were out to poison him,

So, 1+1 = whatever God says it does OR there is no answer and all is vanity and striving after wind. From my Arminian perspective, your choice. From my Calvanist perspective, what God chose you would believe. Being a CalvArminian (or more precisely, a van Tillian), I am content with who and Who makes the choice.

So what do I believe. Jesus Loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.

And my great grandmother was never an amoeba, nor can gas in a vacuum spontaneously become a star. And the Federalis Vision is a power grab by clergy who'd be happier at Rome, and, and, and, and, and.....

Once I chose to believe what God Reveals, not what my very clever mind can cook up, (and I am such a clever little boy), then I am not just content; I am ecstatic. There is a solid foundation beneath my feet: the Bible.

As to Deacon Dean, I hope his skin thickens a bit. We are brothers. Have you seen how brother horseplay? C'mon Deacon, stop whinning, your imput is too valuable to act like a girl. And yes, I just wrote that girls, it is your priviledge to be sissys.

JR, the irritant

DeaconDean · Nov 16, 2013

SoulBap6 said:
I do not know Greek or Hebrew I depend on the word of God KJV revised. I find it to be clear to me. I will be the first to say, that their is much still searching the scriptures, for I find I will never know, as much as I pray I would, but enough to understand how to serve the Lord.

That is fine by me. I'm not here to debate that.

I will say, that when I re-dedicated my life in 1998, I had a zest/zeal to study. And when I was made a Deacon/Elder, and began to teach, I knew there was more than just spouting Sunday school lessons than from the quarterly.

That, and when God led me to start seminary, I found out that smply reading the word wasn't enough.

I was encouraged by a very dear man that taught me. He was one of my seminary teachers as well. He encouraged me to take Greek, as he said it: "You will not have to rely on somebody elses interpretation, you can translate it for yourself to see what God's word says."

And that is what I have done.

I do know that when I teach, or preach, everything I say can and will be used against me. For example: If I teach or preach that a certain passage of scripture says this, and I'm wrong, what if somebody picks up on what I say, teaches it to another, they in turn teach it to another, and so-on and so-forth. Someday, not only will I have to answwer for teaching incorrectly, but I'll also have to answer for those who were taught wrong by my teachings.

So I see studying in the Hebrew and Greek as a good thing.

However, if your fine reading and studying in whatever version you use, fine, God Bless You and evidenty He has.

That just don't satisfy me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Nov 16, 2013

cubanito said:
As to Deacon Dean, I hope his skin thickens a bit. We are brothers. Have you seen how brother horseplay? C'mon Deacon, stop whinning, your imput is too valuable to act like a girl. And yes, I just wrote that girls, it is your priviledge to be sissys.

JR, the irritant

How many times must we go over this? :sigh:

I have never taken any "ribbing" from you personally.

Like the crap with Jack Koons and DanJudge, I'm sick of it.

Even Jesus said there comes a time when we are to give up, shake the dust from our feet.

You'll also notice that I have not responded in any fashion to any of their threads.

I give up, I have shaken the dust from my feet.

Just like the old commercial:

Tootsie Pop - YouTube

How many times must I get my chops busted before I learn to keep my mouth shut?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Emmy · Nov 18, 2013

Dear Deakon Dean. There is so very much you believe, that I cannot possibly remember all. Jesus tells a Lawyer in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself."
Then we are told that on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. That is straightforward and easy to remember.
What I say now, I say with love. Many men and women do not understand the summary, which you are giving us, it is too hard to understand and to remember. I know this is not your fault, but if I might ask, what is the difference of the summary which you believe, and the two short and very easy to understand Commandments, which Jesus gives us in Matthew? I am greatly puzzled what to make of this. Are you meaning something else, or does Love not mean what Jesus told us? God is Love and God wants us to Love God with all our beings, also to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Geetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

DeaconDean · Nov 19, 2013

Emmy said:
What I say now, I say with love. Many men and women do not understand the summary, which you are giving us, it is too hard to understand and to remember. I know this is not your fault, but if I might ask, what is the difference of the summary which you believe, and the two short and very easy to understand Commandments, which Jesus gives us in Matthew? I am greatly puzzled what to make of this. Are you meaning something else, or does Love not mean what Jesus told us? God is Love and God wants us to Love God with all our beings, also to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Geetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

First off, there is so much more in those 66 books than just the two you mentioned.

I rededicated my life in 1998. Since then, there has been a fire in me to know why I believe what I believe.

That is why I attended seminary classes.

Secondly, a certain member in this area has not only questioned me, but also my sincerity, and qualifications.

Everything I post has been attacked, or, I have been told how wrong I was.

I hold to "Olde Tyme, Baptist and Fundamentalist" beliefs.

And that makes me a minority here in this area.

While it may be difficult for you and some others to understand and remember, to many its leaves a bunch of stuff out.

When most say Fundamentalist, the first thing that pops in peoples minds are the Westboro people.

We are not like that. But we are firm in what we believe, and why we believe it.

And since I have come under fire here, before anybody says anything, I want them to know what they are getting into if I ever put my 2 cents worth in or am asked to put my 2 cents worth in.

And the latter has not happened.

So just a friendly warning, I state right up front, this is part of what I believe.

God Bless

Till all are one.

ptomwebster · Nov 19, 2013

Emmy said:
Dear Deakon Dean. There is so very much you believe, that I cannot possibly remember all. Jesus tells a Lawyer in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself."
Then we are told that on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. ...

Emmy,
I think you are putting far more into those words of Jesus than is there. He did not say for us to ignore the rest of Scripture.

Jack Koons · Nov 20, 2013

Hello DeaconDean,

You might be surprised to hear this but, I think I can actually say, 'I understand where you're coming from'. While I do not believe in all five points of T. U. L. I. P. as presented by Calvin, I also do not agree with Dispensationalism's view of differing methods of salvation, period. I believe the truth of Bible doctrine lies in combination of the two teachings.

Jack

cubanito · Nov 21, 2013

My dear, dear DeaconDean, whose posts I enjoy and with whom I agree so much, even more that with da Koonzy.

I make a mild suggestion your skin is thin and I get a tootsie roll commercial.

Kinda proves my point, DeaconDean. Like when Ratzinger quoted an ancient Byzantine Emperor on the violent tendencies of Islam and next thing there are riots, burnings and fresh blood from Christian martyrs.

Deaky picky, please, don't give up on a village of brothers just because of a few irritants!

JR, chief irritant

DeaconDean · Nov 21, 2013

cubanito said:
My dear, dear DeaconDean, whose posts I enjoy and with whom I agree so much, even more that with da Koonzy.

I make a mild suggestion your skin is thin and I get a tootsie roll commercial.

Kinda proves my point, DeaconDean. Like when Ratzinger quoted an ancient Byzantine Emperor on the violent tendencies of Islam and next thing there are riots, burnings and fresh blood from Christian martyrs.

Deaky picky, please, don't give up on a village of brothers just because of a few irritants!

JR, chief irritant

My position during my tenure here on the forums, has not changed.

In 2006, I posted:

DeaconDean said:
Only the "Autographs" (the original documents penned by the biblical authors) are inspired;

I cannot count, just since Jack Koons has arrived, how many times I have affirmed what I have already said.

How many times have I recently affirmed what Fundamentalists have said since 1879?

Fundamentalist said in 1879:

The verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scriptures in the original manuscripts.

1878 Niagara Bible Conference Creed

And yet, I'm the one who is wrong.

Tell me something, if you walk down a street and a dog bites you, you may walk down it again, but if your bit again, how amny times are you going to walk down that road before you learn to avoid that road, and take detours?

I've been here during the good years, and I was here during some of the roughest years.

When the "Debate a Fundamentalist" area was here, I alone practially defended Fundamentalist beliefs.

But recently, when Fundamentalists themselves, or people who claim to be Fundamentalists tell you your wrong, how long does it take to learn your opinions are no longer wanted?

I have many Fundamentalist Brethren and Sisters who no longer post here, or even come on the forums because they seen the "handwritting on the wall".

So why bother?

No sir, I don't have to have a rock fall on my head anymore.

I come through, scan, and occasionally post, but that will be limit of it.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

cubanito · Nov 22, 2013

So wear a helmet and get rabies shots.

Last large dog that thought about biting me took a good look at my face, read my mind where I had planned how exactly I was going to rip it's throat out, put it's tail down and ran wimpering home.

Help me throw stones back and I'll bite the dogs. But get a thicker skin, or if you find a better place to hang out let me know so I can go make you miserable there too.

JR

Jack Koons · Nov 23, 2013

DeaconDean,[bless and do not curse]

1) You are entitled to believe what you want, and choose to believe. (You can even believe you're a legend in your own mind like JR.)

2) I have never shown disrespect to anyone on this Forum, and have tried to address every issue with professionalism.

3) The only statement I recall making to you personally was that you (like everyone else) are a product of what you have been taught. When we believe what we have been taught; we become a product (at least to some degree) of that teaching.[bless and do not curse]

3) I have no problem with anyone learning Hebrew and[bless and do not curse] or Greek. However, I will ale the following statement as a caution: Never let your (I say "your" in complete generality) ability in any area trump a God given "ability from God" that He gave to another person to do specifically the task you have an ability to do.[bless and do not curse]

Here is an example of what I am referring to:

Exodus 35
30[bless and do not curse]And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31[bless and do not curse]And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
32[bless and do not curse]And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
33[bless and do not curse]And in the cutting of stones, to set[bless and do not curse]them,[bless and do not curse]and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.
34[bless and do not curse]And he hath put in his heart that he may teach,[bless and do not curse]both[bless and do not curse]he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan.[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]35[bless and do not curse]Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver,[bless and do not curse]even[bless and do not curse]of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.

James 3: 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle,[bless and do not curse]and[bless and do not curse]easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

It is my belief that God calls particular people to do particular things.[bless and do not curse]

1 Cor 12
14[bless and do not curse]For the body is not one member, but many.
15[bless and do not curse]If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16[bless and do not curse]And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17[bless and do not curse]If the whole body[bless and do not curse]were[bless and do not curse]an eye, where[bless and do not curse]were[bless and do not curse]the hearing? If the whole[bless and do not curse]were[bless and do not curse]hearing, wherewere[bless and do not curse]the smelling?
18[bless and do not curse]But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19[bless and do not curse]And if they were all one member, where[bless and do not curse]were[bless and do not curse]the body?
20[bless and do not curse]But now[bless and do not curse]are they[bless and do not curse]many members, yet but one body.
21[bless and do not curse]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22[bless and do not curse]Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23[bless and do not curse]And those[bless and do not curse]members[bless and do not curse]of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely[bless and do not curse]parts[bless and do not curse]have more abundant comeliness.
24[bless and do not curse]For our comely[bless and do not curse]parts[bless and do not curse]have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to thatpart[bless and do not curse]which lacked:
25[bless and do not curse]That there should be no schism in the body; but[bless and do not curse]that[bless and do not curse]the members should have the same care one for another.

I say this as kindly as I can.[bless and do not curse]

Each Christian has a purpose and calling given by the sovereign will of God. If each member of the body is willing to trust that God has not made the wrong choice in His assignments of each job He has assigned to each believer, then there will be no "lack of trust issue".[bless and do not curse]

I will make this statement directly:

Your ability to read Hebrew and Greek does not trump the wisdom God gave the translators of the King James who I believe were called of God for that specific task. God not only called them to perform that task, but gave them that "wisdom which is from above" to perform it as well, just as He have Bezaleel that wisdom to perform that task which he was called to to.[bless and do not curse]

In Post #59 of the thread, "Does 1 John 5:7 Belong in the Bible?", you stated the following:

"I agree, but, according to one member here, you nor I can or should translate the Greek for ourselves. After all, we have the KJV.

The KJV translators had to be "inspired" the same as the original writers, after all, God said He would preserve His word. (Not my words)

I was taught Greek in seminary for a reason. And as my teacher said, I wouldn't have to rely on others, I could read and translate for myself to see what the intent of the original writers was.

And yet, I catch flack on this more thanb anybody else because there is no need for it as "we have the KJV".

Since you were referring to me, Please allow me to be perfectly clear on this matter.[bless and do not curse]

By no means is the learning of and understanding of Hebrew, Greek, or Latin a negative asset. Understanding those languages can allow you to have a variant reading[bless and do not curse]of the text. However, that does not give you the authority to 'correct' that work which was actually done by those 'called by God' and given that wisdom which is from above to acomplish that task.

4) Proverbs 15: 1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Before making any further statement, I will say this: I realize that I am in a PUBLIC ARENA; therefore, I am totally aware that my statements must be accurate, or I may suffer some embarrassment. However, I do not think you may be aware of this. I hate to say this, but JR is absolutely right (I know, there goes his ego), but you really do need to get some thicker skin. Learn to accept the fact that you may actually be shown something you haven't known up to this point. (Trust me, I learn new things every day! [some by study, and some by being corrected.])

DeaconDean,

The following is from the THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH, With Scripture Proofs,
Adopted by the Ministers and Messengers of the general assembly which met in London in 1689.

1689 LBC: Chapter 1 "Of the Holy Scriptures"

The following excerpt was taken from the above site:

8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.
([bless and do not curse]Romans 3:2;[bless and do not curse]Isaiah 8:20;[bless and do not curse]Acts 15:15;[bless and do not curse]John 5:39;[bless and do not curse]1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28;[bless and do not curse]Colossians 3:16[bless and do not curse])

I Draw your attention to 1) the date of the Confession of Faith (1689); and, 2) The words ... being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic: ....

Providentual Preservation (by God) of the Scriptures is no new teaching as some today would have us believe.

Note the following links:

Philadelphia Confession of Faith (1742)

The following excerpt was taken from the above site:

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith
The Philadelphia Confession is identical to the Second London Confession of Faith (1689), except that chapters 23 and 31 have been added (with other chapters appropriately renumbered). This confession was first issued by the Philadelphia Association in 1742.

The New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833)

The Following excerpts were taken from the above site:

The New Hampshire Baptist Confession, 1833

1. Of the Scriptures
We believe that the Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired, and is a perfect treasure of heavenly instruction;1[bless and do not curse]that it has God for its author, salvation for its end,2[bless and do not curse]and truth without any mixture of error for its matter;3[bless and do not curse]that it reveals the principles by which God will judge us;4[bless and do not curse]and therefore is, and shall remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union,5[bless and do not curse]and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and opinions should be tried.6
The following are the supportive scriptures listed through footnotes (Respectively):

1. [bless and do not curse]2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21; 1 Sam. 23:2; Acts 1:16; 3:21; John 10:35; Luke 16:29-31; Psa. 119:11; Rom. 3:1-2[bless and do not curse](return).
2. 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Pet. 1:10-12; Acts 11:14; Rom. 1:16; Mark 16:16; John 5:38-39[bless and do not curse](return).
3. Prov. 30:5-6; John 17:17; Rev. 22:18-19; Rom. 3:4[bless and do not curse](return).
4. Rom. 2:12; John 12:47-48; 1 Cor. 4:3-4; Luke 10:10-16; 12:47-48[bless and do not curse](return).
5. Phil. 3:16; Eph. 4:3-6; Phil. 2:1-2; 1 Cor. 1:10; 1 Pet. 4:11[bless and do not curse](return).
6. 1 John 4:1; Isa. 8:20; 1 Thess. 5:21; 2 Cor. 8:5; Acts 17:11; 1 John 4:6; Jude 3:5; Eph. 6:17; Psa. 119:59-60; Phil. 1:9-11[bless and do not curse](return).

The Baptist Faith & Message

The Baptist Faith and Message
I. The Scriptures
The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.
Exodus 24:4; Deuteronomy 4:1-2; 17:19; Joshua 8:34; Psalms 19:7-10; 119:11,89,105,140; Isaiah 34:16; 40:8; Jeremiah 15:16; 36:1-32; Matthew 5:17-18; 22:29; Luke 21:33; 24:44-46; John 5:39; 16:13-15; 17:17; Acts 2:16ff.; 17:11; Romans 15:4; 16:25-26; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 1:1-2; 4:12; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:19-21.

None of the above confessions (1689, 1742, or the 1833); being older than the '1878 Niagara Bible Conference Creed', or The Baptist Faith and Message of 2000, use the words, in the originals. Rather, the point is actually made quite clear (as noted above), that these scholars believed in the 'Providentual Preservation' of the scriptures. The use of the present tense are, along with the fact that it was clearly and definitely stated that it was their belief that God would keep them pure in all ages, leaves no doubt that if those same men were present today, they would share my understanding of 'Providentual Preservation.

Jack

Jack Koons · Nov 24, 2013

I have no idea why that post repeated [bless an do not curse]; my sincere apologies.

Jack

Jack Koons · Nov 25, 2013

DeaconDean,

1) You are entitled to believe what you want, and choose to believe. (You can even believe you're a legend in your own mind like JR.)

2) I have never shown disrespect to anyone on this Forum, and have tried to address every issue with professionalism.

3) The only statement I recall making to you personally was that you (like everyone else) are a product of what you have been taught. When we believe what we have been taught; we become a product (at least to some degree) of that teaching.

3) I have no problem with anyone learning Hebrew and or Greek. However, I will ale the following statement as a caution: Never let your (I say "your" in complete generality) ability in any area trump a God given "ability from God" that He gave to another person to do specifically the task you have an ability to do.

Here is an example of what I am referring to:

Exodus 35
30And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
32And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
33And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.
34And he hath put in his heart that he may teach,? both he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. 35 Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.

James 3: 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

It is my belief that God calls particular people to do particular things.

1 Cor 12
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

I say this as kindly as I can.

Each Christian has a purpose and calling given by the sovereign will of God. If each member of the body is willing to trust that God has not made the wrong choice in His assignments of each job He has assigned to each believer, then there will be no "lack of trust issue".

I will make this statement directly:

Your ability to read Hebrew and Greek does not trump the wisdom God gave the translators of the King James who I believe were called of God for that specific task. God not only called them to perform that task, but gave them that "wisdom which is from above" to perform it as well, just as He have Bezaleel that wisdom to perform that task which he was called to to.

In Post #59 of the thread, "Does 1 John 5:7 Belong in the Bible?", you stated the following:

"I agree, but, according to one member here, you nor I can or should translate the Greek for ourselves. After all, we have the KJV.

The KJV translators had to be "inspired" the same as the original writers, after all, God said He would preserve His word. (Not my words)

I was taught Greek in seminary for a reason. And as my teacher said, I wouldn't have to rely on others, I could read and translate for myself to see what the intent of the original writers was.

And yet, I catch flack on this more thanb anybody else because there is no need for it as "we have the KJV".

Since you were referring to me, Please allow me to be perfectly clear on this matter.

By no means is the learning of and understanding of Hebrew, Greek, or Latin a negative asset. Understanding those languages can allow you to have a variant reading of the text. However, that does not give you the authority to 'correct' that work which was actually done by those 'called by God' and given that wisdom which is from above to acomplish that task.

4) Proverbs 15: 1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Before making any further statement, I will say this: I realize that I am in a PUBLIC ARENA; therefore, I am totally aware that my statements must be accurate, or I may suffer some embarrassment. However, I do not think you may be aware of this. I hate to say this, but JR is absolutely right (I know, there goes his ego), but you really do need to get some thicker skin. Learn to accept the fact that you may actually be shown something you haven't known up to this point. (Trust me, I learn new things every day! [some by study, and some by being corrected.])

DeaconDean,

The following is from the THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH, With Scripture Proofs,
Adopted by the Ministers and Messengers of the general assembly which met in London in 1689.

1689 LBC: Chapter 1 "Of the Holy Scriptures"

The following excerpt was taken from the above site:

8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.
Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16)

I Draw your attention to 1) the date of the Confession of Faith (1689); and, 2) The words ... being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic: ....

Providentual Preservation (by God) of the Scriptures is no new teaching as some today would have us believe.

Note the following links:

Philadelphia Confession of Faith (1742)

The following excerpt was taken from the above site:

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith
The Philadelphia Confession is identical to the Second London Confession of Faith (1689), except that chapters 23 and 31 have been added (with other chapters appropriately renumbered). This confession was first issued by the Philadelphia Association in 1742.

The New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833)

The Following excerpts were taken from the above site:

The New Hampshire Baptist Confession, 1833

1. Of the Scriptures
We believe that the Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired, and is a perfect treasure of heavenly instruction;1 that it has God for its author, salvation for its end,2 and truth without any mixture of error for its matter;3 that it reveals the principles by which God will judge us;4 and therefore is, and shall remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union,5 and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and opinions should be tried.6
The following are the supportive scriptures listed through footnotes (Respectively):

1. 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21; 1 Sam. 23:2; Acts 1:16; 3:21; John 10:35; Luke 16:29-31; Psa. 119:11; Rom. 3:1-2 (return).
2. 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Pet. 1:10-12; Acts 11:14; Rom. 1:16; Mark 16:16; John 5:38-39(return).
3. Prov. 30:5-6; John 17:17; Rev. 22:18-19; Rom. 3:4(return).
4. Rom. 2:12; John 12:47-48; 1 Cor. 4:3-4; Luke 10:10-16; 12:47-48(return).
5. Phil. 3:16; Eph. 4:3-6; Phil. 2:1-2; 1 Cor. 1:10; 1 Pet. 4:11(return).
6. 1 John 4:1; Isa. 8:20; 1 Thess. 5:21; 2 Cor. 8:5; Acts 17:11; 1 John 4:6; Jude 3:5; Eph. 6:17; Psa. 119:59-60; Phil. 1:9-11(return).

The Baptist Faith & Message

The Baptist Faith and Message
I. The Scriptures
The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.
Exodus 24:4; Deuteronomy 4:1-2; 17:19; Joshua 8:34; Psalms 19:7-10; 119:11,89,105,140; Isaiah 34:16; 40:8; Jeremiah 15:16; 36:1-32; Matthew 5:17-18; 22:29; Luke 21:33; 24:44-46; John 5:39; 16:13-15; 17:17; Acts 2:16ff.; 17:11; Romans 15:4; 16:25-26; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 1:1-2; 4:12; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 1:19-21.

None of the above confessions (1689, 1742, or the 1833); being older than the '1878 Niagara Bible Conference Creed', or The Baptist Faith and Message of 2000, use the words, in the originals. Rather, the point is actually made quite clear (as noted above), that these scholars believed in the 'Providentual Preservation' of the scriptures. The use of the present tense are, along with the fact that it was clearly and definitely stated that it was their belief that God would keep them pure in all ages, leaves no doubt that if those same men were present today, they would share my understanding of 'Providentual Preservation.

Jack

One more quick added note:

I am NOT stating that those individuals represented by the "1878 Niagara Bible Conference Creed" did not believe as you say, 'in the originals'. What I AM SAYING is that those individuals DID NOT speak for the WHOLE of 'fundamentalism', as you may suggest. 189 years before those individuals of 1878 got together, some other individuals got together and said something different. It was then reaffirmed 53 years later, reaffirmed 91 years later, and once again 167 years after that.

Jack

SoulBap6 · Nov 26, 2013

This is what I believe
The Holy Scriptures

We believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be the verbally and plenary inspired Word of God. The scriptures are inerrant, infallible and God-breathed and, therefore, are the final authority for faith and life. The sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments are the complete and divine revelation of God to man. The scriptures shall be interpreted according to their normal grammatical and historical meaning. The King James Version of the Bible shall be the official and only translation used by the church. (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21)

Dispensationalism

We believe that the scriptures are to be interpreted in their natural, literal sense and that they reveal divinely determined dispensations or rules of life which define man's responsibilities in successive ages. These dispensations are not ways of salvation, but rather are divinely ordered stewardships by which God directs man according to His purpose. Three of these dispensations-the law, the church, and the kingdom-are the subjects of detailed revelation in scripture. (Gen. 1:28; 1 Cor. 9:17; 2 Cor. 3:9-18; Gal. 3:13-25; Eph. 1:10; 3:2-10; Col. 1:24-25, 27; Rev. 20:2-6)

The Godhead

We believe in one triune God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-each co-eternal in being, co-identical in nature, co-equal in power and glory, and having the same attributes and perfections. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; John 14:10, 26)

The Person and Work of Christ

1.We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became man, without ceasing to be God, having been conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, in order that He might reveal God and redeem sinful men. (Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Luke 1:35; John 1:1-2, 14; 2 Cor. 5:19-21; Gal. 4:4-5; Phil. 2:5-8)
2.We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our redemption through His death on the cross as a representative, vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice, and that our justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead. (Acts 2:18-36; Rom. 3:24-25; 1 Pet. 2:24; Eph. 1:7; 1 Peter 1:3-5)
3.We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where, as our High Priest, He fulfills the ministry of representative, intercessor, and advocate. (Acts 1:9-10; Heb. 9:24; 7:25; Rom. 8:34; 1 John 2:1-2)

The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit

1.We believe that the Holy Spirit is a person who convicts the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; and, that He is the supernatural agent in regeneration, indwelling and sealing believers until the day of redemption. (John 16:8-11; Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; 2 Cor. 3:6; Eph. 1:13-14)
2.We believe that He is the divine teacher who assists believers to understand and appropriate the scriptures and that it is the privilege and duty of all the saved to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 1:17-18; 5:18; 1 John 2:20, 27)
3.We believe that God is sovereign in the bestowal of spiritual gifts to every believer. God uniquely uses evangelists, pastors, and teachers to equip believers in the assembly in order that they can do the work of the ministry. (Rom. 12:3-8; 1 Cor. 12:4-11, 28; Eph. 4:7-12)
4.We believe that the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues and the gift of healing, were temporary. Speaking in tongues was never the common or necessary sign of the baptism or filling of the Holy Spirit, and that ultimate deliverance of the body from sickness or death awaits the consummation of our salvation in the resurrection, though God frequently chooses to answer the prayers of believers for physical healing. (1 Cor. 1:22; 13:8; 14:21-22)

The Total Depravity of Man

We believe that man was created in the image and likeness of God; but that in Adam's sin the human race fell, inherited a sinful nature, and became alienated from God. Man is totally depraved and, of himself, utterly unable to remedy his lost condition. (Gen. 1:26-27; Rom. 3:22-23; 5:12; 6:23; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:17-19)

Salvation

We believe that salvation is the gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Whose precious blood was shed on Calvary for the forgiveness of our sins. We believe that all sins, except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, are forgivable. (John 1:12; Eph. 1:7; 2:8-10; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Matt. 12:31-32; 1 John 1:9)

The Eternal Security and Assurance of Believers

1.We believe that all the redeemed, once saved, are kept by God's power and are thus secure in Christ forever. (John 6:37-40; 10:27-30; Rom. 8:1; 38-39; 1 Cor. 1:4-8; 1 Pet. 1:4-5)
2.We believe that it is the privilege of believers to rejoice in the assurance of their salvation through the testimony of God's Word, which, however, clearly forbids the use of Christian liberty as an occasion to the flesh. (Rom. 13:13-14; Gal. 5:13; Titus 2:11-15)

The Church

1.We believe that the local church, which is the body and the espoused bride of Christ, is solely made up of born-again persons. (1 Cor. 12:12-14; 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 1:22-23; 5:25-27)
2.We believe that the establishment and continuance of local churches is clearly taught and defined in the New Testament Scriptures. (Acts 14:27; 20:17, 28-32; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-11)
3.We believe in the autonomy of the local church free of any external authority or control. (Acts 13:1-4; 15:19-31; 20:28; Rom. 16:1, 4; 1 Cor. 3:9, 16; 5:4-7, 13; 1 Pet. 5:1-4)
4.We recognize water baptism and the Lord's Supper as the scriptural ordinances of obedience for the church in this age. (Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42; 18:18; 1 Cor. 11:23-26)

Separation

We believe that all the saved should live in such a manner as not to bring reproach upon their Savior and Lord. God commands His people to separate from all religious apostasy, all worldly and sinful pleasures, practices, and associations, and to refrain from all immodest and immoderate appearances, piercings, and bodily markings. (Rom. 12:1-2; 14:13; 2 Cor. 6:14-7:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 John 2:15-17; 2 John 9-11; Lev. 19:28; 1 Cor. 6:19-20)

The Second Advent of Christ

We believe in that blessed hope, the personal, imminent return of Christ who will rapture His church prior to the seven-year tribulation period. At the end of the Great Tribulation, Christ will personally and visibly return with His saints, to establish His earthly Messianic Kingdom which was promised to the nation of Israel. (Ps. 89:3-4; Dan. 2:31-45; Zech. 14:4-11; I Thess. 1:10; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13; Rev. 3:10; 19:11-16; 20:1-6)

The Eternal State

1.We believe in the bodily resurrection of all men, the saved to eternal life, and the unsaved to judgment and everlasting punishment. (Matt. 25:46; John 5:28, 29; 11:25-26; Rev. 20:5-6, 12-13)
2.We believe that the souls of the redeemed are, at death, absent from the body and present with the Lord, where in conscious bliss they await the first resurrection, when spirit, soul, and body are reunited to be glorified forever with the Lord. (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 3:21; I Thess. 4:16-17; Rev. 20:4-6)
3.We believe that the souls of unbelievers remain, after death, in conscious punishment and torment until the second resurrection, when with soul and body reunited, they shall appear at the Great White Throne Judgment, and shall be cast into the Lake of Fire, not to be annihilated, but to suffer everlasting conscious punishment and torment. (Matt. 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-26; 2 Thess. 1:7-9; Jude 6-7; Rev. 20:11-15)

The Personality of Satan

We believe that Satan is a person, the author of sin and the cause of the fall of man; that he is the open and declared enemy of God and man; and that he shall be eternally punished in the Lake of Fire. (Job 1:6-7; Isa. 14:12-17; Matt. 4:2-11; 25:41; Rev. 20:10)

Creation

We believe that God created the universe in six literal, 24-hour periods. We reject evolution, the Gap Theory, the Day-Age Theory, and Theistic Evolution as unscriptural theories of origin. (Gen. 1-2; Ex. 20:11)

Civil Government

We believe that God has ordained and created all authority consisting of three basic institutions: 1) the home, 2) the church, and 3) the state. Every person is subject to these authorities, but all (including the authorities themselves) are answerable to God and governed by His Word. God has given each institution specific biblical responsibilities and balanced those responsibilities with the understanding that no institution has the right to infringe upon the other. The home, the church, and the state are equal and sovereign in their respective biblically assigned spheres of responsibility under God. (Rom. 13:1-7; Eph. 5:22-24; Heb. 13:17; 1 Pet. 2:13-14)

Peace be with you'all

ptomwebster · Nov 26, 2013

SoulBap6 said:
This is what I believe
...We believe ...
We believe ...

You start with "I believe" and quote what "WE" believe, who is the we you copied your statement from? I expect it's a Baptist group.

SoulBap6 · Nov 27, 2013

ptomwebster said:
You start with "I believe" and quote what "WE" believe, who is the we you copied your statement from? I expect it's a Baptist group.

This is a Statement of Faith at the Church I attend Hillcrest Baptist IFB, It was easer just to copy the church since I am a Member.

DeaconDean · Nov 27, 2013

SoulBap6 said:
This is a Statement of Faith at the Church I attend Hillcrest Baptist IFB, It was easer just to copy the church since I am a Member.

I see you are a dispensationalist to a certain degree.

May I ask how far you agree with dispensationalism?

Ignorantly, I admit I was a full-blown dispensaionalist.

God Bless

Till all are one.

SoulBap6 · Nov 27, 2013

DeaconDean said:
I see you are a dispensationalist to a certain degree.

May I ask how far you agree with dispensationalism?

Ignorantly, I admit I was a full-blown dispensaionalist.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I can't say I am full blown about 3/4 = Law /church/ Kingdom

Here is a brief summary of what I (DeaconDean) hold to/believe.

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