Eternal security or OSAS

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SeventhValley

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With Calvinism it is luck of the draw repentance dose not matter.


With Arminianism God says I will regenerate you through the cross to persevere if you have faith,but if you reject me you crucify me twice and have no excuse.

Hebrews 6:5-6 KJV

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 
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SeventhValley

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Osas means if you truly trust God you cannot be taken out if his hand even if you mess up. If you do not trust God he will cut you off like he did to elect who became non-elect before.

Romans 11:22 KJV

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 
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Keachian

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With Calvinism it is luck of the draw repentance dose not matter.
So you believe that Man needs your definition of free will in order to repent properly? Lord give me strength.

With Arminianism God says I will regenerate you through the cross to persevere if you have faith,but if you reject me you crucify me twice and have no excuse.
I fail to see how a Calvinist cannot claim the same thing.
 
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Keachian

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God creates evil to test humans but is a just God giving all the chance to do his will.

Those who decide to not follow God after given the second chance through the cross will justly get his wrath.
God creates evil for many more reasons than just that, there is no evil that God doesn't have purpose for
 
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SeventhValley

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I can play both sides.

If you go beyond man having to repent and have faith in God to the how it works you then put yourself in God's place.

The Bible says have faith,repent, do not fall away beyond that you get into the possibility of idolatry as both Calvinism and Arminianism can be gleaned from scripture. Which is why both are considered orthodox protestant positions and both are Reformed theology.

But really both have weak points(John Piper even admits such of his system he dose not know how man can have responsibility but just assumes he dose even though it contradicts his systems logical pattern)

So it is best to leave the how up to God. Just like I have to put gas in my car I have to have faith even though it is impossible to know the how.
 
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jamantc

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With Calvinism it is luck of the draw repentance dose not matter.


With Arminianism God says I will regenerate you through the cross to persevere if you have faith,but if you reject me you crucify me twice and have no excuse.

Hebrews 6:5-6 KJV

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
I never met a Calvinist that says you don't have to repent! Without repentance there is no salvation! And if you think Calvinist don't do missions, do a research and take a trip through time and you will prove your own self wrong in your thinking. I will ask you the same question I asked earlier: If Jesus died for all men's sin, do men pay for their sins again in hell? Jesus either paid a potential price on the cross or He paid a particular price. If Jesus paid for all men's sin, then men would not go to hell for their sins since they have been paid in full and with a price! Jesus said I came to seek that which belongs to the Father and all the Father gives me I will not turn away. He can only turn away those whom the Father didn't give to Him. If conversion is true and of God, you can not lose your salvation as there is no great power than God that can snatch you from His hand! The bible is clear that those who turn away were never saved to start with. I have never questioned my salvation since being saved and I never will, the Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I belong to the master and that I am no longer a slave to sin, but a slave to Christ who bought me at a price I can never pay back
 
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Bluelion

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With Calvinism it is luck of the draw repentance dose not matter.


With Arminianism God says I will regenerate you through the cross to persevere if you have faith,but if you reject me you crucify me twice and have no excuse.

Hebrews 6:5-6 KJV

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You seem to think God would let his Son die in vain. That is not God.
 
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Bluelion

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I never met a Calvinist that says you don't have to repent! Without repentance there is no salvation! And if you think Calvinist don't do missions, do a research and take a trip through time and you will prove your own self wrong in your thinking. I will ask you the same question I asked earlier: If Jesus died for all men's sin, do men pay for their sins again in hell? Jesus either paid a potential price on the cross or He paid a particular price. If Jesus paid for all men's sin, then men would not go to hell for their sins since they have been paid in full and with a price! Jesus said I came to seek that which belongs to the Father and all the Father gives me I will not turn away. He can only turn away those whom the Father didn't give to Him. If conversion is true and of God, you can not lose your salvation as there is no great power than God that can snatch you from His hand! The bible is clear that those who turn away were never saved to start with. I have never questioned my salvation since being saved and I never will, the Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit that I belong to the master and that I am no longer a slave to sin, but a slave to Christ who bought me at a price I can never pay back

It is written no one can take anything from Gods hands. God does not lose his children. Good post.

The die for the sins of the world is conditional yes it is for everyone, but you must accept it. Children of Satan never will, but they had an equal chance. they were given a chance in spite of what they would do like statan was given a chance. Can you condemn a man for his action before he has done them? If you do he is guiltless because he never did those things, but would have. i think this is why all were given a chance, and also to follow God out of Love, not because their was no choice.
 
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jamantc

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Sins can't be paid for twice though. Either Christ paid for all sin or paid for some sin. If He paid for all sin for all then all would be saved because His death is that strong. If He paid for all sin for all people and some still go to hell, they go with their sins paid for. If a person is born a sinner, he is condemned already, therefore we are already condemned before birth since we are sinners before birth. Paul wrote that for the order of election to remain, God chose Jacob over Essau before either was born or yet formed in the womb. Who condemned us? Adam when he and Eve fell in the garden. The fallen angels were not given a chance at redemption because they are not created beings in the order which God created humans and sent Christ to die. scripture is clear that even before the foundation of the world was created, God in His redemptive plan to save a many ordained Jesus to die fro the sins of many and He was made a propitiation to reconcile many back to God. Do I think you are saved? I most certainly do! Do I think God saved you from sin by His grace on mercy? I most certainly do! Do I think you said yes? I most certainly do! Do I think you said yes by waking up and deciding that day you would follow Christ without the Holy Spirit first enabling you to do so? Surely not. Love you in truth and love my brother!
 
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Bluelion

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Sins can't be paid for twice though. Either Christ paid for all sin or paid for some sin. If He paid for all sin for all then all would be saved because His death is that strong. If He paid for all sin for all people and some still go to hell, they go with their sins paid for. If a person is born a sinner, he is condemned already, therefore we are already condemned before birth since we are sinners before birth. Paul wrote that for the order of election to remain, God chose Jacob over Essau before either was born or yet formed in the womb. Who condemned us? Adam when he and Eve fell in the garden. The fallen angels were not given a chance at redemption because they are not created beings in the order which God created humans and sent Christ to die. scripture is clear that even before the foundation of the world was created, God in His redemptive plan to save a many ordained Jesus to die fro the sins of many and He was made a propitiation to reconcile many back to God. Do I think you are saved? I most certainly do! Do I think God saved you from sin by His grace on mercy? I most certainly do! Do I think you said yes? I most certainly do! Do I think you said yes by waking up and deciding that day you would follow Christ without the Holy Spirit first enabling you to do so? Surely not. Love you in truth and love my brother!


You are right I was just studying this today in fact. The Holy Spirit is the one who works in us and shows us are sinful nature and need for him. We can not see are own sin, or know the truth with out the works of The Holy Spirit in us.

It is written Jesus took on the sins of the world, what that means is for those who accept it. here is a story maybe it will help.

There is a group of men sentence to jail, all the same amount of time, when in walks a man who says i will pay there fine and do there jail time. Now all of the men accept this mans offer but one. He says out of pride he will do his own jail time, and so he does.

Now that man that paid the others debt was he not willing to pay the man's debt who refused. So you could say the man came to pay the debt for all the prisoners even if one man would not take him up on his offer.

That is what it means Jesus died for the sins of the world or for all mans sins. He does not force it on any one they have to accept it, or else they can pay their own debt.

Does that make sense?
 
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Keachian

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You are right I was just studying this today in fact. The Holy Spirit is the one who works in us and shows us are sinful nature and need for him. We can not see are own sin, or know the truth with out the works of The Holy Spirit in us.

It is written Jesus took on the sins of the world, what that means is for those who accept it. here is a story maybe it will help.

There is a group of men sentence to jail, all the same amount of time, when in walks a man who says i will pay there fine and do there jail time. Now all of the men accept this mans offer but one. He says out of pride he will do his own jail time, and so he does.

Now that man that paid the others debt was he not willing to pay the man's debt who refused. So you could say the man came to pay the debt for all the prisoners even if one man would not take him up on his offer.

That is what it means Jesus died for the sins of the world or for all mans sins. He does not force it on any one they have to accept it, or else they can pay their own debt.

Does that make sense?

How about we stick to parables from the Bible to describe salvation? The Parable of the Sower is very good in this regard (Matt 13:1-9,18-23)
 
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Bluelion

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How about we stick to parables from the Bible to describe salvation? The Parable of the Sower is very good in this regard (Matt 13:1-9,18-23)

That's fine, and all but i was not speaking to you. You think you could let God speak through me how he chooses. Or are you suggesting The Holy Spirit does no longer preach today?

The story holds true to the bible
 
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Keachian

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That's fine, and all but i was not speaking to you. You think you could let God speak through me how he chooses.
So prophet, if God speaks through you then why is it not in line with what has preceded, shall we stone you now or do you want to take that claim back?

Or are you suggesting The Holy Spirit does no longer preach today?
The Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church as he has always done, the problem however is not whether he continues to talk to us but how, Scripture is breathed out by God, so why look to other analogies that when pressed do not actually conform to Scripture when Scripture itself will suffice.

The story holds true to the bible
I don't think it does
 
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Bluelion

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So prophet, if God speaks through you then why is it not in line with what has preceded, shall we stone you now or do you want to take that claim back?


The Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church as he has always done, the problem however is not whether he continues to talk to us but how, Scripture is breathed out by God, so why look to other analogies that when pressed do not actually conform to Scripture when Scripture itself will suffice.


I don't think it does

How about instead of accusing me you show with Gods word where it is not with it.

If i had sinned i would say let he who is with out sin cast the first stone.

Though shall not bare false witness
 
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Bluelion

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So prophet, if God speaks through you then why is it not in line with what has preceded, shall we stone you now or do you want to take that claim back?


The Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church as he has always done, the problem however is not whether he continues to talk to us but how, Scripture is breathed out by God, so why look to other analogies that when pressed do not actually conform to Scripture when Scripture itself will suffice.


I don't think it does

so why have you not yet answered my first post to this that you prove your accusation.

You don't accuse some one and then not show proof. Is it maybe you can not.

Answer my first post in response to this, or could it be you are only here to push peoples buttons sow seeds of discord?
 
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Keachian

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How about instead of accusing me you show with Gods word where it is not with it.
Just from the Parable of the Sower the problems with your parable are that you have given too few groups, there are those that will for a time be seeming to accept the Grace of God but will inevitably due to pressures of the world whether it be pressures to conform or persecution do not exhibit true faith and when it really comes down to it do we really think that the Sower in the parable (who is God btw) does not know that the seed he sows anywhere other than the good soil will not yield grain.

If i had sinned i would say let he who is with out sin cast the first stone.
Seeing as I don't view that episode as Scriptural, I will instead use Matt 7:1-5 as the accusation that you have against me. From that I will say that I don't claim to be a mouthpiece for God. If God uses me to bring a person to repentance then it is in spite of me, not because I am some "super-Christian"

Thou shall not bare false witness
I wasn't aware that I had.
 
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Keachian

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so why have you not yet answered my first post to this that you prove your accusation.

You don't accuse some one and then not show proof. Is it maybe you can not.

Answer my first post in response to this, or could it be you are only here to push peoples buttons sow seeds of discord?

So because I responded to you in another thread means that I saw your reply to me in this thread, good to know that I need to see your replies in order and respond to them as such.
 
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jamantc

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In your view, I am assuming you would say that God foresaw who would be saved and wouldn't as most teach in churches in non-reformed circles? In this view there is a slight problem as you cannot consistently say that God foreknew who would be saved (by foreseen faith) and then preach that God the Holy Spirit does all He can do to save every man in the world. The Holy Spirit would be wasting time and effort to endeavor to convert a man who He knew from the beginning would go to Hell. If God already knows the outcome of every man before he created the world then the result cannot be otherwise. In other words, even you cannot escape the fact that man has no free will, but in this case it is not man or God choosing but some kind of fate since the future cannot be otherwise. This is why many Arminians have jumped ship and become Open Theists because the position is untenable. If God foreknows all things then it is, in a very real sense, his will that they take place. The Arminian view does not escape this very same dilemma, it only hides or crouches it behind an elaborate man-made system made to look (from the outside) as if it were protecting God. I like the parable, but let us look at another one:
Consider if I were to borrow $200 million from a bank as venture capital to fund a new company but then squander it in a couple of weeks of wild living. Does my inability to ever repay the bank alleviate me of the responsibility to do so? Of course not. In the world of finance and law inability is not an excuse for not carrying out the duty to repay. How much more with God. Your idea wrongly presumes that inability alleviates us from our responsibility, but just like the man who is unable to repay his $200 million debt squandered in wild living still has a responsibility, so likewise we are responsible to obey God and believe the gospel, even though (because we fell in Adam) we are morally unable to do so. It is perfectly just of God to let us pay our own debt when we so steadfastly refuse Him. Sin cannot be paid for twice, it was either paid in full by Christ or will be paid for in full by the sinner. Numbers 21 gives a great OT foretelling of salvation. Many were bitten by serpents and died. God told Moses to lift up a bronze serpent and all who looked upon the serpent would not die. Keep in mind that many had already perished, in their sins. How then if salvation through Christ is for all who ever lived, yet we die in our sins we go to hell, is sin paid for for everyone? It's because Christ death was particular and not potential. To say that Christ paid for the sins of everyone who has ever lived is to say that those in hell before His coming would get a second chance at salvation. Nowhere is that taught in scripture, nowhere! Again, that says that Christ death is particular and not potential. As Jonathan Edwards once said, "If damnation be justice, then mercy may choose its own object." The greatest curse God can give us in this world is to leave us in the hands of our own boasted free will. So it should forever awe us that he has had mercy on us, disarmed our rebellion, and saved us, in spite of ourselves
 
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