I hope you're meaning the Heavenly church. But if you mean a
church on Earth, let me know when you find it.
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What the Bible really says about homosexuality
- Thread starter Achilles6129
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church on Earth, let me know when you find it.
No, you simply tell them the truth in an honest & objective manner. You never cater to anyone.
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Yes, you tell the truth. Period. I'm all for it and there's more than
one way to skin a cat. Using honey isn't catering by any stretch.
Beating someone over the head will push a person away.
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U
unlikeable1979
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All I know is God did not call me to live that lifestyle. I thank God that I know the truth. And that He gave me parents who believe in Jesus to show me the truth. Otherwise, I would have been a practicing homosexual. It is sin, and God did not call me to live a life of sin. Don't get me wrong, I have some bad habits that I am trying to overcome. But I am seeking His will above mine.
I have seen posts on other threads where Christians defend homosexual behavior. I wonder why that is? Oh well, it's not for me to know.
I have seen posts on other threads where Christians defend homosexual behavior. I wonder why that is? Oh well, it's not for me to know.
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Al Gammate
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Modern liberals disguised as Christians on Christian forums will fight very hard for the advancement of man-to-man marriages and man-to-man sex. Though the Bible makes it extremely clear that homosexuality is a grave sin, these modern liberals will attempt to twist and distort what's written in the Bible.
These modern liberals would have you believe that God wants His followers to avidly engage in man-to-man marriages and man-to-man sex. That man-to-man marriages and man-to-man sex are the pinnacles of virtue.
I believe that most Christians living in America don't want a theocracy as many modern liberals want you to believe. Many American Christians understand very clearly that the United States Constitution provides a separation of church and state, and are okay with this.
Nevertheless, what concerns many American Christians is the slide into total depravity as a nation. Though America began as a country that followed Christian principles, it has currently strayed so far from these principles that God's wrath may not be far behind. America used to be a very blessed country. Now it seems very cursed.
These modern liberals would have you believe that God wants His followers to avidly engage in man-to-man marriages and man-to-man sex. That man-to-man marriages and man-to-man sex are the pinnacles of virtue.
I believe that most Christians living in America don't want a theocracy as many modern liberals want you to believe. Many American Christians understand very clearly that the United States Constitution provides a separation of church and state, and are okay with this.
Nevertheless, what concerns many American Christians is the slide into total depravity as a nation. Though America began as a country that followed Christian principles, it has currently strayed so far from these principles that God's wrath may not be far behind. America used to be a very blessed country. Now it seems very cursed.
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Sam VanHouten
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Exactly. Do you see the tornadoes in Illinois? Those are proof of the devastating effects of grave depravity in this country. God is punishing America for having a reprobate mind. God is punishing the churches, too.
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The problem is that quoting Scripture is defined as "beating someone over the head." People who want to say that homosexual practices are sin but don't set forth the full magnitude of what the Bible says are being disingenuous. Anyone who glances at what the Bible has to say about homosexuality will find that it is a very, very, evil sin. A sin so evil it is mentioned as an "abomination" (not many sins are) and also on a specific list to keep you out of the kingdom of heaven.
Not mentioning these things would be disingenuous.
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If only it were that simple. I notice you use several different translations. That's interesting. Did you know that the 1984 NIV does NOT agree with the NIV translation you used for 1 Tim? It said "perverts". Why? The word in Greek is "arsenokoitai". Gordon Fee (one of the NIV translators and a world class scholar) admitted that this word is rarely used "especially when describing homosexual activity". In fact in other ancient literature it is usually used to describe pederasty, hence Martin Luther translated it, "abusers of boys".
That's just one of your verses. It's so easy to find an English translation and state it's "what the Bible really says". NO. It's what the NIV says. It's how somebody has interpreted it for you. The original texts are less clear.
I'll give you an example of an equally wild claim (please note I am not making this claim!). Jesus talking about the last days, knew what our world would be like, and yet says in Luke 17:34, "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.". Since in these days 2 men in one bed would imply a gay couple, Jesus is clearly saying you can be gay, partnered and go to Heaven. That's what the Bible really says, right?
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Do you have a problem understanding the Biblical commandment against bearing false witness? Because that is what you are doing, by distorting what we actually believe. Nobody that is a "liberal" Christian believes that homosexuality is a virtue, merely that some people are born gay and homosexuality is, for them, natural.
I guess we worship very different gods. Where is love in your religion?
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WanderingBloom
Real Heroes Don't Wear Capes.They Wear Dog Tags.
I agree with you in that it appears many liberals who self-identify as Christians are seeking to engage in sophistry in order to rewrite the scripture so as to have it condone their behaviors.
The falsehood many argue about Leviticus referring to temple prostitution is a weak argument that indicates more of an ignorance of temple prostitution in those times, than anything that could remotely make their point that God condones homosexuality.
Temple prostitutes participated in all manner of deviant behaviors. Just as prostitutes today will do anything for a buck.
Genesis on is very clear. God created the man and the woman to go forth and procreate. He created the animals to reproduce and flourish each unto their own kind.
That pretty much says it all. As God created it to be. Leave it to humans though to interpret according to what they need to read so as to feel justified in avoiding true repentance.
One thing for sure, they can go liberal all day long while in the flesh. Feel vindicated, gay Christian, reading the Queen James Bible and marching with pride once a year or whenever the spirit moves them.
But when this life is over, there's no going back. When this life is over they have to answer to the one God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Who's word was sacred, God's breath, for teaching, for wisdom, for guidance. Not for editing according to what liberals and the damned need to hear so they can feel OK just the way they are.
Anton LaVey wrote the Satanic Bible. From cover to cover it's chapters tout the benefits of hedonism and auto-theism. (Self as god). When I hear liberals breath their own scripture I recall good old dead Anton and his Satanic Bible. And then I wonder if he ever imagined there would be a sequel written and carried by liberal self-titled Christians.
I think there is a strong push to reclaim the principles that are woven into the fabric of America. The thing is as a representative democracy those Americans who cherish that heritage have to help the process along. We can't sit on the sidelines and wait for others to do it for us.
Apathy is what got us into this mess. And political correct agendas are what are going to dig us deeper if we don't stop the descent.
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I posted many passages on homosexuality (defined as homosexual behavior). Would you like to show me which of these passages (both OT and NT) is only talking about acts committed in heathen temples?
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The "Christian" obsession with homosexuality has little if anything to do with homosexuality per se. "Homosexuality" has become a code word or litmus test for whether one supports the right-wing political agenda. There are any number of scholarly treatises that explain what the Bible means by homosexuality and what these verses were actually intended to address, and it isn't what the redneck yahoos think. If God regards homosexuality as an abomination, then he certainly is a Cosmic Screw-Up because he created a substantial percentage of both human sexes and a fair number of animal species with homosexual proclivities. I have no dog in the fight, but the "Christian" obsession with homosexuality is an embarrassment to the Christianity that Jesus taught. How odd that there is no similar obsession with divorce. (By "Christianity," I am referring to that particularly weird American right-wing political movement that characterizes itself as Christian in order to attract redneck yahoos but actually represents almost a complete perversion of Jesus' teachings.)
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I suppose you are right. I'm just very used to the rhetoric that we liberals somehow are not true Christians. I'm turning the issue around and asking why the fear-based religion, the religion that says we are only accepted by God if we do X. Isn't that works-righteousness and condemned by the Gospel?
I go to a church with many openly gay people, including the head pastor and the deacon. (and there are a few straight people also, it's not just a "gay church"). There have always been Christian leaders that were gay, and condemning homosexuals will not change this. The only difference between my church and a lot of other churches is that we are honest about who we are. We use the same lectionary and readings as every other Roman Catholic and Mainline Protestant church too, today's Epistle was about St. Paul telling us to avoid lust and drunkenness. It's not as if there is "another Gospel" preached at affirming and inclusive churches.
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There is a substantial percentage of peoples with proclivities toward lying, theft, lust, murder, or whatever other sin you want to name. It is referred to in the bible as our sin nature. I think the attention given by Christians to this particular sin of homosexuality is the attacks on traditional marriage and the special rights being afforded those who participate in this lifestyle which we now see are starting to trump constitutionally guaranteed rights to freedom of religion.
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Speaking as a non-American I find this line of reasoning fascinating. For me, what has any constitution or tradition got to do with it? A constitution is a man made document and traditions are just "we've always done it that way".
I'm from Scotland, and our government is in the process of legalising same-sex marriage (we call it equal marriage), following a consultation in which 66% of written responses were supportive of the idea. We don't have a written constitution, but clearly the will of the Scottish people is that equal marriage is the right thing to do.
Is this an attack on marriage? No. We're providing access to marriage for people who WANT to get married. How on earth is Adam and Steve's marriage a threat to anyone else's marriage? I say this in jest, but the only real threat to marriage is divorce. Maybe we should make divorce illegal?
As for religious freedom, many Churches want to be able to marry gay and lesbian couples. They believe this is the right thing to do, and that it is thoroughly Biblical. Where is their freedom of religion - not to mention that of gay and lesbian Christians forced to "live in sin" because the law won't let them marry their partners?
In Scotland ministers and pastors must be registered before they can legally marry someone. The Scottish Government's solution is to run equal marriage as an opt in alongside the existing system. So, no pastor will be forced to marry a gay couple. Those who want to do it will simply opt in. There are also legal protections for those who do not opt in, so they cannot be sued for refusing.
Finally, special rights? Again, I'm not clued up on the American situation, but here it's about the same rights, not special rights. I'd be stunned if campaigners for gay rights in the US were looking for anything other than equal rights.
Anyway, that's my view as a non-American, for whatever it's worth.
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None of the "proclivities" you mention go to the core of whom a person is. To one degree or another, all of the proclivities you mention are matters of choice. "Being gay" IMHO is more in the vein of "having blue eyes." I have had a number of gay friends, and in no case did being gay seem to be even vaguely a matter of choice or lifestyle; it seemed pretty clearly to be genetic. "Special rights" for gays and allowing gay rights to "trump constitutionally guaranteed rights to freedom of religion" are not biblical or even Christian issues -- they are political issues. It's an undeniable fact that the political arguments leveled at gay rights are indistinguishable from the ones leveled at civil rights. The one point you make that has some validity concerns marriage. If one thinks that marriage is a religious institution and has been biblically defined as involving a male and female, then one can take a principled stance against gay marriage; this logic does not extend, however, to denying gays other rights. If churches were required to perform gay marriages, this would indeed raise some serious constitutional concerns.
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Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us on what Scripture means when it says that those that commit homosexuality have wrought "an abomination." Or when Jude says that Sodom/Gomorrah were destroyed for their homosexuality.
You've never read that the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth? Or the imagination of man's heart is only evil continually? God doesn't create you that way - you create yourself that way by disobedience to God's commands.
They do not. They are laws for the land of Israel. Homosexual behavior is called an "abomination" by God - care to explain that?
Sorry, Paul is just talking about homosexuality in Romans. There is no other "context." Read the passage for yourself:
"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21 for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." Rom. 1:18-27 (NRSV)
There is no "heathen temple" context. Nothing. It is simply homosexuality.
Christ was YHWH, God of the OT. He said something about it in Leviticus 18/20. He also spoke through Paul and Jude in the NT. In the Gospels, specifically, however, Christ did not need to say anything about it because it was simply taken for granted in his day. And he had already said everything he needed to say in the OT.
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