The Day of Destruction

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parousia70 said in post 34:

Satan was bound/judged/cast out by Christ's ministry, reversing satan's dominion over the People of God, granting power over all darkness to the saints, and immediately enabling the gospel to spread to all nations.
(John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).

Regarding John 12:31, it means that because of what Jesus did at his first coming (Hebrews 2:14), Satan "will", in our future, first be cast out of heaven permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-17). Then, later, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3), Satan will be bound and cast down beneath the earth's surface, locked within the literal bottomless pit, for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:2-3). Then, after the 1,000 years and the subsequent defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-9), Satan will be cast into the lake of fire to remain there forever (Revelation 20:10). The lake of fire will be outside New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

parousia70 said in post 34:

Satan was bound/judged/cast out by Christ's ministry, reversing satan's dominion over the People of God, granting power over all darkness to the saints, and immediately enabling the gospel to spread to all nations.
(John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).

Regarding Matthew 12:28-29, the "strong man" isn't Satan himself, but refers to "strong man" individual demons/unclean spirits which possess individual people. Compare the strength of the individual demon in the individual man in Acts 19:13-16, who had the strength to overpower 7 men. Satan himself remains unbound, walking about freely on the earth (1 Peter 5:8). He won't be bound and locked down in the bottomless pit, by an angel, until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

parousia70 said in post 34:

Satan was bound/judged/cast out by Christ's ministry, reversing satan's dominion over the People of God, granting power over all darkness to the saints, and immediately enabling the gospel to spread to all nations.
(John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).

Regarding Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8, note that they, like Colossians 2:15, make no reference to the binding of Satan and his being "shut up", i.e. enclosed within, the literal bottomless pit by an angel, which won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

In Hebrews 2:14, the original Greek word (katargeo, G2673) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to make of none effect" (Romans 4:14b). Hebrews 2:14 means that Jesus' death made Satan's power of none effect spiritually over obedient Christians. Similarly, in 1 John 3:8, the original Greek word (luo, G3089) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to break" (Ephesians 2:14). 1 John 3:8 means that Jesus came to break Satan's workings from having any spiritual effect over obedient Christians.

Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8b, and Colossians 2:15 don't contradict the fact that Satan can still wield his power physically over even obedient Christians, even to the point of killing them (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Similarly, Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict the fact that Satan can still wield his deceiving spiritual power over both disobedient Christians and non-Christians (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10), whereas during the future millennium, Satan won't be able to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:3).

parousia70 said in post 34:

If you put your faith in the Bible (as I do) you are putting your defacto faith in the early Church councils who decided which Books belonged and which didn't.

Biblical Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b) not because of some intellectual trust on their part in a purportedly infallible church, but because Biblical Christians have been granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b) and some measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-16). And so they're able to spiritually recognize if something is said by God (John 10:4,27; 1 Corinthians 14:37) or only by some "stranger" (John 10:5).

And Biblical Christians know that the Bible is God's Word not only because of the spiritual evidence of faith (Hebrews 11:1), but also because Jesus himself confirms that the entire Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). And the entire New Testament was written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:1, John 19:35, John 21:24; 1 Peter 5:1, Luke 24:48, Revelation 1:17-19) or their immediate followers (Luke 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:3). And Jesus' New Testament death for our sins and his resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (Acts 26:22-23, Isaiah 53, Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Also, no doctrine in the Bible has ever been proven false, so there's no reason for any Christian to reject any doctrine taught by the Bible.

It's the Bible which is able to make people wise unto salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 3:15; 1 Peter 1:23-25, Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, James 1:18). All of the Bible's teachings were given by the inspiration of God, and so they're all true and God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). Jesus says: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31). Christians must be willing to die before they would deny any part of his Word (Mark 8:35-38). One of Satan's prime aims is to get people to reject all or parts of God's Word and start believing something else that sounds better to them as humans (Genesis 3:1-6, Matthew 16:21-23; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), but which can't save them, so that they will end up in eternal suffering with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

parousia70 said in post 34:

If you put your faith in the Bible (as I do) you are putting your defacto faith in the early Church councils who decided which Books belonged and which didn't.

The different books of the New Testament were all written for the early (i.e. the first century) church, which knew and trusted the writers, and so kept their writings, because the writers were eyewitnesses of Jesus (2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:1, John 19:35, John 21:24, Luke 24:48, Revelation 1:17-19) or their immediate followers (Luke 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:3). Also, the early church had received God's own Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-13), Jesus Christ's own mind (1 Corinthians 2:16), and so the church was able to know whether a teaching of the writers was truly from Jesus or not (John 10:27,4,5), just as Biblical Christians can still know this today for the same reason. Also, Biblical Christians today, just as the early church did, can confirm for themselves that the writers of the New Testament agree with what the Old Testament prophesied (Acts 17:11, Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:44-48).
 
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Interplanner said in post 35:

I don't think the NT ever refers to the church's own victory.

That's right.

Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

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Matthew 16:18 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict the idea that evil forces can prevail against the church physically, for they will during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist will prevail physically against believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Instead, Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16) when he liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

That is, all the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24), for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

And 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

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Interplanner said in post 39:

There are "actual" biblical scholars who realize that there are "actual" biblical era floods that are confined to the Mesopotamian basin, while it is obvious that there was global flooding at the end of the ice age, about 12000 BC. That's when the Niagara falls bedrock started collapsing at the current rate (the falls has worked its way upstream at that computed rate for that length of time since that starting point), and when the Columbia broke through the Cascades, and many other global changes showing major flooding. It is reasonable to think that Gen 1:2 means that period by its 'formless and void' of watery chaos.

That brings to mind the idea that there could have been two different gaps of time in Genesis chapters 1-2, the first gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and the 2nd gap between Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:5. Genesis 1:1 could have occurred some 4.5 billion years ago, when God first created the planet earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b). Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, some 4.5 billion years could have occurred, in which God could have allowed his own created process of evolution to serve as a mechanism by which new species arose on the earth. During those same 4.5 billion years, God could have also gone outside of evolution and created new species miraculously, whenever he wanted to (cf. punctuated equilibria).

Genesis 1:2 could refer to the condition of the earth only about 12,000 years ago (at the end of the Paleolithic period), after some cataclysm, such as a comet strike, had killed off all life on the planet (both evolved and miraculously created), and had submerged all land areas in water (comets contain huge amounts of water), and had ruined the atmosphere. The impact of the comet could have also knocked the earth out of its orbit around its original star, so that the earth was sent hurtling into the darkness of interstellar space as a "rogue planet" (astronomers estimate that rogue planets in our galaxy could outnumber the stars in our galaxy). Genesis 1:3 to 2:4 could then refer to God, over a period of 6 literal, 24-hour days (some 12,000 years ago, at the start of the Neolithic period), miraculously restoring to the earth light, a good atmosphere, dry land, and life, including a race of male and female homo sapiens sapiens, after God had miraculously restored land plants (Genesis 1:11-13) and land animals (Genesis 1:24-25) to the earth.

Then, only about 6,000 years ago, God miraculously created on the earth an individual male homo sapiens sapiens named Adam in an uninhabited desert land (Genesis 2:5-7; there, the original Hebrew word translated as "earth" can simply refer to a certain "land": e.g. Genesis 2:11). After that, God planted the plants of the local, Garden of Eden in that desert land (Genesis 2:8-9) and God placed Adam in that garden (Genesis 2:15). Then God miraculously created the animals of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:19). Then God miraculously created in the Garden of Eden an individual female homo sapiens sapiens (Genesis 2:22) whom Adam named Eve (Genesis 3:20).

Because Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago (based on Biblical chronology), yet there are homo sapiens sapiens fossils said to be as old as about 200,000 years, God could have first created homo sapiens sapiens (or it could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) as far back as about 200,000 years. Also, all the different hominid forms the fossils of which long predate or are as old as the earliest fossils of homo sapiens sapiens, and which preceding or coexisting hominid forms we don't consider to have been fully human like us (such as homo sapiens neanderthalensis), could have all been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) over millions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth.

And this doesn't even get into the possibly trillion other inhabited planets in the universe on which homo sapiens sapiens (or similar or far more advanced life-forms) could have been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) billions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth. For the universe could be about 14 billion years old, and there are something like 100 billion different galaxies, each containing something like 100 billion different stars. So even if only one star out of every 10 billion stars has an inhabited planet, there would still be a trillion inhabited planets. And on most of these, God could have begun his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) billions of years before beginning his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) on the earth.
 
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keras said in post 36:

So you are quite happy to ignore the actual time periods as given to us in the Bible and proven historical dates?

Neither need to be avoided. For, similar to what you pointed out, various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't require that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it's curious that the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it's curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

keras said in post 36:

Quite a few Bible scholars come to this date, or very near to it, the main difference is what is the 4000 year point.

Are you saying that periods of exactly 1,000 years must be significant? If so, do you base that idea on 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4? If so, note that 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 don't have to mean exactly 1,000 years. For God can round numbers down. For example, 1 Kings 7:23 in effect rounds 3.14 down to 3. For 1 Kings 7:23 isn't implying that pi is equal to exactly 3. All 1 Kings 7:23 is saying is that a brass basin 10 cubits in diameter had a circumference of 30 cubits, which could have simply been rounded down from a circumference of 31.4 cubits. Or the 10-cubit diameter could have been rounded up from 9.55 cubits, which would have resulted in a circumference of 30 cubits. Or neither the 10-cubit-diameter figure nor the 30-cubit-circumference figure was meant to be taken as an exact figure accurate to 1/100 of a cubit. For 1 Kings 7:23 isn't giving an exact, blueprint description of the basin, nor is it giving a geometry lesson. It's simply giving a general account of how big the basin was.

Similarly, 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 don't have to be giving an exact equation, but can be giving a general idea. Just as God can in effect round 3.14 down to 3, so he could round something like 1,140 down to 1,000.
 
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"If you put your faith in the Bible (as I do) you are putting your defacto faith in the early Church councils who decided which Books belonged and which didn't"


In no way does any true member of the Lord's ecclesia put their faith in the hands of any man made "church"

Your "early church" is not the earliest one .... the earliest followers of the Lord as presented in scripture in the days of the apostles is the one to pattern after .... those who do this are biblical Christians and their faith is not in any other thing ... but in Jesus Christ alone
 
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"The great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand? Revelation 6:12-17"


This thread should be returned to the original posting that Keras has presented

The verse above is loaded with very significant truth regarding the coming day of the Lord and His own command of the same .... He is the Judge and executor of His coming wrath upon a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him
 
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keras

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Thanks TW, as the 'great Day of the Lord's wrath will happen very soon, we should all concentrate on understanding what, how and when it will happen.

Days of the Lord
Because there are some similarities with the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev. 19:11-21, which refers to the Return of Jesus and between the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath that happens at the Sixth Seal, Rev. 6:17, then some people consider them as the same event. This is not and cannot be correct, as the seal, trumpet and bowl judgement-punishments as written in Revelation are clearly a consecutive sequence of events, with the Return at the end of all that. We are especially warned to not alter the book of Revelation. Rev 22:19
Matthew 24:27-30 Like a lightning flash over all the earth, so will the Presence of the Son of Man be. Where the dead are, the vultures will gather. Then, immediately after the days of tribulation, the sun and moon will be darkened, stars will fall and then will appear the Lord Jesus. Everyone will mourn as He comes on the clouds with great power and glory.
Note that the moon will be blood red at the Day of the Lord’s wrath - Acts 2:20, whereas at the Return, the sun and moon will be darkened. It is patently obvious that there are two events described above, first is the Sixth Seal, when the Lord instigates the ‘lightning flash’ of His Day of vengeance and wrath, at the punishment of the nations when He is not seen, coming in the clouds, Psalm 18:11, then it isn’t until after the seventh seal time gap of 16/17 years, at the end of the Great Tribulation, that He Returns in glory to commence His Millennial reign. The Lord Jesus comes on the clouds, Matthew 24:30, in His garment splashed with blood; from His previous punishment of the nations. Isaiah 63:1-6
Where the dead are; where those carrion birds gather, is mainly in the Middle East, but also around the world as many prophesies say. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Psalm 83:1-18, Isaiah 66:15-16, Jeremiah 25:33, Deut. 32:41, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Nahum 1:3-6, 2 Peter 3:10

These Bible passages also state the next prophesied event, the Day of the Lord’s wrath and what the ‘lightning flash’ is that will affect all the world is explained to us in:
Isaiah 30:26-30…the sun will shine with seven times its normal strength, on the Day the Lord saves His people. Look! The power of the Lord comes from afar, with His wrath and great rage blazing, His tongue as a devouring fire… He sieves out the nations for destruction. His arm will strike them down with flames of devouring fire, floods, hailstones and storm tempest. But for you there will be rejoicing, as you march to the holy Land, to the Rock of Israel.
Isaiah 42:14-16 Long have I restrained Myself… now I am ready to act. I shall dry up the streams, lay waste to the land and make it a desert. Then, I shall lead My people along new paths, I will make a light before them.
Psalm 97:1-12 The Lord reigns! In His justice, He flashes forth lightning’s and all the earth quakes. Cloud and thick mist enfolds Him as fire goes ahead, consuming all His enemies. The Lord’s people hear and rejoice as He rescues them. Psalm 18:7-15
Deuteronomy 32:36-43 The Lord will judge the nations, but will have compassion on His servants. His flashing sword of punishment will fall upon His enemies. He will take vengeance on all who hate Him and will cleanse His people’s Land.
Ezekiel 36:5-12 In the fiery heat of My anger, I will punish the nations, but especially those who inhabit My holy Land. Then you, Land of Israel, will put forth growth and bear produce, for the homecoming of My people is near. I will bless the Land and settle upon it many people – the whole Israelite people, they will increase and be prosperous, the burned houses and the ruined places will be rebuilt.
Zechariah 9:14-17 The Lord comes on a mighty storm wind from the South. He will sound the shofar, as His arrows dart like lightning, defeating the enemy and defending His people. They will rejoice, as with wine, on the Day their Lord saves them, for they are as precious jewels sparkling in the holy Land.
Joel 2:11 & 18 The Lord thunders as He marshals His forces, countless are those who obey His commands. For great and terrible is the Day of the Lord and who can endure it? Then the Lord shows His love for the holy Land and has compassion for His people.
Amos 9:5 & 14 At the Lord’s touch, the whole earth heaves, it will rise and fall like the Nile and woe to all who live on it. But I will restore the fortune of My people, righteous Israel, they will rebuild the ruined towns, sow and plant, then enjoy the produce.
Habakkuk 3:10-13 The mountains see You and shake, an enormous wave of water rushes by, the sun and moon stay still as Your flashing arrows and Your spear like lightning speed on their way. In fury, You traverse the earth, in anger You trample the nations, but You come out to save Your people, as You shatter the wicked, You protect Your anointed ones.
Malachi 4:1-3 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and evildoers will be burnt to a stubble, that Day will set them ablaze and leave neither root nor branch. But for you who fear My Name, the sun of righteousness will shine forth, you will be restored and break loose, like calves released. On the Day I take action, the wicked will be as ashes beneath your feet.
Revelation 14:12 &18-19 From the Altar came another angel, the one who has authority over fire and he called to the one with the sharp sickle: Put in your sharp sickle, for the earth’s harvest is ripe. So the angel swept the earth, gathered in the grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
All this calls for the endurance of the Lord’s people, all those who keep His commands and remain loyal to Him.
All these prophecies and many others, speak of a worldwide judgement by fire, a CME sunstrike that will depopulate all the holy Land. Then the great second exodus of the Israelite people, those true descendants and those grafted in, will gather and live in all of the holy Land. They will choose their own leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11. Then the Lord will ‘reveal His glory among His own’ 2Thess 1:10, Isaiah 24:23, but not to the world, until years later.
Like most of the prophetic Word, Revelation is somewhat mixed up. But the seals, trumpets and bowls are one of the few instances of a correct sequence and from them, we can get a true picture of events. Note carefully, in Rev. 5:1, the description of the Scroll – written on both sides and sealed with seven seals. So the seals are first – must be removed one by one. The first five have been opened, probably soon after the ‘Lamb’ ascended to heaven. The Sixth Seal is next, now very soon to happen. This sudden and shocking world changing event will enable the establishment of the One World Govt, also the second exodus of the Lord’s people to all of the holy Land. That is what all Christians should be looking forward to! At the same time, or very soon after the Sixth, is the 7th seal, which is undeniably a time interval. Then, years later, at the mid-point of Daniels 70th year, the scroll is unrolled for the Great Tribulation – the trumpets on one side and the bowls on the other.

Revelation 7:1-17 After that, [the sixth seal] I saw four angels holding back any further disasters until the seal of God was given to His servants. Twelve thousand from each tribe of Israel received the seal of God and then I saw a great throng of people from all races, tribes, nations and tongues, praising the Lord. They have passed through the great ordeal, been tested and found righteous, never again will the scorching heat of the sun beat upon them, they will want for nothing and God will wipe every tear away. REB, CJB.
‘holding back any further disasters’. - This proves that the Great Tribulation is still to come.
‘the great ordeal’ – Some Bibles say ‘Great Tribulation’, incorrectly thinking that the Day of the Lord’s wrath happens at the Return. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Cor. 3:13
‘the scorching heat of the sun’, -The devastating CME sunstrike of the Sixth Seal. Isa. 30:26
‘The 144,000 Israelites’, - They go out to the world to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Rev. 14:1-7, Isa. 66:19
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parousia70

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. The lake of fire will be outside New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

So your position is that Sin and Suffering continue for eternity ON the New Earth?



Satan himself remains unbound, walking about freely on the earth (1 Peter 5:8). He won't be bound and locked down in the bottomless pit, by an angel, until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).
And what power do you say Satan has OVER Faithful Christians presently that he won't have once he is "bound" in your scenario??


In Hebrews 2:14, the original Greek word (katargeo, G2673) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to make of none effect" (Romans 4:14b). Hebrews 2:14 means that Jesus' death made Satan's power of none effect spiritually over obedient Christians.
I guess that answers my above question, but poses another:

If Satan power is currently of "no effect" on obedient Christians, and Since non Christians will NEVER share in that victory, How is his present defeat not already total?

Are you suggesting one day that unbelievers will share in Christ and the saints victory over Satan??

Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict the fact that Satan can still wield his deceiving spiritual power over both disobedient Christians and non-Christians (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10), whereas during the future millennium, Satan won't be able to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:3).
Wow... you answered yet again!

So you DO believe that one day unbelievers will share in Christ and the saints victory over Satan?

Are you a universalist by chance?

And what about people who are drawn away tempted by their own enticing desires? (James 1:14)
Will that continue after Satan is bound, since satanic influence is currently not necessary for this type of self temptation?

Biblical Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b) not because of some intellectual trust on their part in a purportedly infallible church, but because Biblical Christians have been granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b) and some measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-16). And so they're able to spiritually recognize if something is said by God (John 10:4,27; 1 Corinthians 14:37) or only by some "stranger" (John 10:5).

And Biblical Christians know that the Bible is God's Word not only because of the spiritual evidence of faith (Hebrews 11:1), but also because Jesus himself confirms that the entire Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). And the entire New Testament was written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:1, John 19:35, John 21:24; 1 Peter 5:1, Luke 24:48, Revelation 1:17-19) or their immediate followers (Luke 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:3). And Jesus' New Testament death for our sins and his resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (Acts 26:22-23, Isaiah 53, Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Also, no doctrine in the Bible has ever been proven false, so there's no reason for any Christian to reject any doctrine taught by the Bible.

It's the Bible which is able to make people wise unto salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 3:15; 1 Peter 1:23-25, Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, James 1:18). All of the Bible's teachings were given by the inspiration of God, and so they're all true and God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). Jesus says: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31). Christians must be willing to die before they would deny any part of his Word (Mark 8:35-38). One of Satan's prime aims is to get people to reject all or parts of God's Word and start believing something else that sounds better to them as humans (Genesis 3:1-6, Matthew 16:21-23; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), but which can't save them, so that they will end up in eternal suffering with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

The different books of the New Testament were all written for the early (i.e. the first century) church, which knew and trusted the writers, and so kept their writings, because the writers were eyewitnesses of Jesus (2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:1, John 19:35, John 21:24, Luke 24:48, Revelation 1:17-19) or their immediate followers (Luke 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:3). Also, the early church had received God's own Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-13), Jesus Christ's own mind (1 Corinthians 2:16), and so the church was able to know whether a teaching of the writers was truly from Jesus or not (John 10:27,4,5), just as Biblical Christians can still know this today for the same reason. Also, Biblical Christians today, just as the early church did, can confirm for themselves that the writers of the New Testament agree with what the Old Testament prophesied (Acts 17:11, Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:44-48).
This is all circular reasoning and fails to address my assertion.

The Bible is true and complete because the Bible is true and complete?

Many "books" floated around purporting to be apostolic in origin side by side with the books of ACTUAL apostolic origin... it took the Church councils to authoritatively weed out the counterfeit writings and keep the actual apostolic writings intact... That job could not have been left to the individual Christian to discern for himself, or we would NOT posess a "canon" of scripture that could be trusted today.
 
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parousia70

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Thanks TW, as the 'great Day of the Lord's wrath will happen very soon,

So when you Say it will happen "Very Soon" do you mean something that is polar opposite to the apostles meaning when they also said it was going to happen "Very Soon"?

Do you know something the divinely inspired apostles didn't?
 
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keras

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So when you Say it will happen "Very Soon" do you mean something that is polar opposite to the apostles meaning when they also said it was going to happen "Very Soon"?

Do you know something the divinely inspired apostles didn't?

I am just a messenger.
It doesn't require divine Inspiration to realize that we are now 'as in the days of Noah', and can expect the end time events to commence 'very soon'.
The Apostles and Prophets also speak of immanency, but they spoke in God's timing and to keep believers on their toes, always in an expectation of fulfilment.
 
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Bible2

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Time Watcher said in post 45:

"The great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand? Revelation 6:12-17"


This thread should be returned to the original posting that Keras has presented

The verse above is loaded with very significant truth regarding the coming day of the Lord and His own command of the same .... He is the Judge and executor of His coming wrath upon a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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keras

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Bible2, repeating your old arguments does not properly address the questions and comments made. You are in error with many of your pedantic pronouncements, for example: 'God's wrath does not begin until Jesus' coming'.
I have already posted that to deny Rev 6:17 and say it is not actually the Lord's wrath and those who say it is are lying; is gross error and puts you at risk of Rev 22:19. Anyway you fit the category of Timothy 1:7, because Rev 15:1 undeniably states that the wrath of God is completed at the seventh plague. Rev 16:17
 
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Bible2

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keras said in post 51:

You are in error with many of your pedantic pronouncements, for example: 'God's wrath does not begin until Jesus' coming'.

Note that it wasn't said that "God's wrath does not begin until Jesus' coming".

keras said in post 51:

I have already posted that to deny Rev 6:17 and say it is not actually the Lord's wrath and those who say it is are lying; is gross error and puts you at risk of Rev 22:19.

Note that it wasn't said that those who say Revelation 6:17 are lying.

keras said in post 51:

I have already posted that to deny Rev 6:17 and say it is not actually the Lord's wrath and those who say it is are lying; is gross error and puts you at risk of Rev 22:19.

Regarding Revelation 22:19, it's a warning against removing words from the actual text of the book of Revelation, and then publishing the altered text as if those words weren't in the original text. Revelation 22:19 isn't a warning against simply saying, for example, that the people quoted in Revelation 6:17 can be mistaken in what they say, similar to how, for example, those quoted in Job 19:11, John 7:12b, and Matthew 27:63a were mistaken in what they said.

keras said in post 51:

Anyway you fit the category of Timothy 1:7, because Rev 15:1 undeniably states that the wrath of God is completed at the seventh plague. Rev 16:17

Note that none of the "wrath" verses in Revelation chapters 15-16 requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath. For they refer only to the tribulation's final stage, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath, which could be the "last" plagues which "fill up" (complete) God's wrath (Revelation 15:1) in relation to the earlier plagues brought on the world by God's two witnesses (Revelation 11:6). Also, note that nothing requires that any of the plagues from God in Revelation 11:6 or Revelation 16 will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth during those times (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

keras said in post 51:

Anyway you fit the category of Timothy 1:7, because Rev 15:1 undeniably states that the wrath of God is completed at the seventh plague. Rev 16:17

Regarding Revelation 16:17, only after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" at the 7th vial, the final event of the tribulation, is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2), will Jesus return and rapture (gather together) and marry the church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, and Mark 13. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).
 
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keras

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Thanks, brother Bible2, we see the end time events differently. Very soon, who is correct will become apparent. If you are right, I will apologize to you, but after the Lord's Day of wrath, to happen very soon and we meet in the holy Land, I will expect your apology.
 
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Thanks TW, as the 'great Day of the Lord's wrath will happen very soon, we should all concentrate on understanding what, how and when it will happen.

Days of the Lord
Because there are some similarities with the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev. 19:11-21, which refers to the Return of Jesus and between the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath that happens at the Sixth Seal, Rev. 6:17, then some people consider them as the same event.


This is not and cannot be correct, as the seal, trumpet and bowl judgement-punishments as written in Revelation are clearly a consecutive sequence of events, with the Return at the end of all that. We are especially warned to not alter the book of Revelation. Rev 22:19

Appreciate you and your words, ie, thank you! With "7" distinct endings of the world, going to be next to impossible to view consecutively.

Matthew 24:27-30 Like a lightning flash over all the earth, so will the Presence of the Son of Man be. Where the dead are, the vultures will gather. Then, immediately after the days of tribulation, the sun and moon will be darkened, stars will fall and then will appear the Lord Jesus. Everyone will mourn as He comes on the clouds with great power and glory.
Note that the moon will be blood red at the Day of the Lord’s wrath - Acts 2:20, whereas at the Return, the sun and moon will be darkened. It is patently obvious that there are two events described above, first is the Sixth Seal, when the Lord instigates the ‘lightning flash’ of His Day of vengeance and wrath, at the punishment of the nations when He is not seen, coming in the clouds, Psalm 18:11, then it isn’t until after the seventh seal time gap of 16/17 years, at the end of the Great Tribulation, that He Returns in glory to commence His Millennial reign. The Lord Jesus comes on the clouds, Matthew 24:30, in His garment splashed with blood; from His previous punishment of the nations. Isaiah 63:1-6
Where the dead are; where those carrion birds gather, is mainly in the Middle East, but also around the world as many prophesies say. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Psalm 83:1-18, Isaiah 66:15-16, Jeremiah 25:33, Deut. 32:41, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Nahum 1:3-6, 2 Peter 3:10

These Bible passages also state the next prophesied event, the Day of the Lord’s wrath and what the ‘lightning flash’ is that will affect all the world is explained to us in:
Isaiah 30:26-30…the sun will shine with seven times its normal strength, on the Day the Lord saves His people. Look! The power of the Lord comes from afar, with His wrath and great rage blazing, His tongue as a devouring fire… He sieves out the nations for destruction. His arm will strike them down with flames of devouring fire, floods, hailstones and storm tempest. But for you there will be rejoicing, as you march to the holy Land, to the Rock of Israel.
Isaiah 42:14-16 Long have I restrained Myself… now I am ready to act. I shall dry up the streams, lay waste to the land and make it a desert. Then, I shall lead My people along new paths, I will make a light before them.
Psalm 97:1-12 The Lord reigns! In His justice, He flashes forth lightning’s and all the earth quakes. Cloud and thick mist enfolds Him as fire goes ahead, consuming all His enemies. The Lord’s people hear and rejoice as He rescues them. Psalm 18:7-15
Deuteronomy 32:36-43 The Lord will judge the nations, but will have compassion on His servants. His flashing sword of punishment will fall upon His enemies. He will take vengeance on all who hate Him and will cleanse His people’s Land.
Ezekiel 36:5-12 In the fiery heat of My anger, I will punish the nations, but especially those who inhabit My holy Land. Then you, Land of Israel, will put forth growth and bear produce, for the homecoming of My people is near. I will bless the Land and settle upon it many people – the whole Israelite people, they will increase and be prosperous, the burned houses and the ruined places will be rebuilt.
Zechariah 9:14-17 The Lord comes on a mighty storm wind from the South. He will sound the shofar, as His arrows dart like lightning, defeating the enemy and defending His people. They will rejoice, as with wine, on the Day their Lord saves them, for they are as precious jewels sparkling in the holy Land.
Joel 2:11 & 18 The Lord thunders as He marshals His forces, countless are those who obey His commands. For great and terrible is the Day of the Lord and who can endure it? Then the Lord shows His love for the holy Land and has compassion for His people.
Amos 9:5 & 14 At the Lord’s touch, the whole earth heaves, it will rise and fall like the Nile and woe to all who live on it. But I will restore the fortune of My people, righteous Israel, they will rebuild the ruined towns, sow and plant, then enjoy the produce.
Habakkuk 3:10-13 The mountains see You and shake, an enormous wave of water rushes by, the sun and moon stay still as Your flashing arrows and Your spear like lightning speed on their way. In fury, You traverse the earth, in anger You trample the nations, but You come out to save Your people, as You shatter the wicked, You protect Your anointed ones.
Malachi 4:1-3 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and evildoers will be burnt to a stubble, that Day will set them ablaze and leave neither root nor branch. But for you who fear My Name, the sun of righteousness will shine forth, you will be restored and break loose, like calves released. On the Day I take action, the wicked will be as ashes beneath your feet.
Revelation 14:12 &18-19 From the Altar came another angel, the one who has authority over fire and he called to the one with the sharp sickle: Put in your sharp sickle, for the earth’s harvest is ripe. So the angel swept the earth, gathered in the grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
All this calls for the endurance of the Lord’s people, all those who keep His commands and remain loyal to Him.
All these prophecies and many others, speak of a worldwide judgement by fire, a CME sunstrike that will depopulate all the holy Land. Then the great second exodus of the Israelite people, those true descendants and those grafted in, will gather and live in all of the holy Land. They will choose their own leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11. Then the Lord will ‘reveal His glory among His own’ 2Thess 1:10, Isaiah 24:23, but not to the world, until years later.
Like most of the prophetic Word, Revelation is somewhat mixed up. But the seals, trumpets and bowls are one of the few instances of a correct sequence and from them, we can get a true picture of events. Note carefully, in Rev. 5:1, the description of the Scroll – written on both sides and sealed with seven seals. So the seals are first – must be removed one by one. The first five have been opened, probably soon after the ‘Lamb’ ascended to heaven. The Sixth Seal is next, now very soon to happen. This sudden and shocking world changing event will enable the establishment of the One World Govt, also the second exodus of the Lord’s people to all of the holy Land. That is what all Christians should be looking forward to! At the same time, or very soon after the Sixth, is the 7th seal, which is undeniably a time interval. Then, years later, at the mid-point of Daniels 70th year, the scroll is unrolled for the Great Tribulation – the trumpets on one side and the bowls on the other.

Revelation 7:1-17 After that, [the sixth seal] I saw four angels holding back any further disasters until the seal of God was given to His servants. Twelve thousand from each tribe of Israel received the seal of God and then I saw a great throng of people from all races, tribes, nations and tongues, praising the Lord. They have passed through the great ordeal, been tested and found righteous, never again will the scorching heat of the sun beat upon them, they will want for nothing and God will wipe every tear away. REB, CJB.
‘holding back any further disasters’. - This proves that the Great Tribulation is still to come.
‘the great ordeal’ – Some Bibles say ‘Great Tribulation’, incorrectly thinking that the Day of the Lord’s wrath happens at the Return. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Cor. 3:13
‘the scorching heat of the sun’, -The devastating CME sunstrike of the Sixth Seal. Isa. 30:26
‘The 144,000 Israelites’, - They go out to the world to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Rev. 14:1-7, Isa. 66:19
logostelos.info

Just ol' old synchronous Jack heeding Rev.22:19
 
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We are not expecting to meet in the Holy Land, if there is one. Heb 11's last verses. Be informed that something better than what they wandered in was promised--the Sabbath Rest of the Gospel. Isn't it a bit odd not to be looking forward to something that they were already told was superior to their being in the land when they were there?
 
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We are not expecting to meet in the Holy Land, if there is one. Heb 11's last verses. Be informed that something better than what they wandered in was promised--the Sabbath Rest of the Gospel. Isn't it a bit odd not to be looking forward to something that they were already told was superior to their being in the land when they were there?

Well, I believe what the Bible says and many, many times we are told that the Lord will gather His people and bless them in the holy Land.
Jeremiah 50:4-5 In the latter days, the Lord says: The people of Israel and Judah will come together in search of the Lord and turn toward Zion...
Just these verses tell us 4 important things, in the last days, that is: before the Return of Jesus, as proved by their ' searching for the Lord'. All the tribes will re-join and they will include all those grafted in by reason of righteousness, then they all go to and live in all of the holy Land. A much bigger Land than the present Israel; Isaiah 26:15, Micah 7:11
It is obvious that the current situation in all of the Middle east is far from God's intention. His plan is to have a people there, who are 'a light to the nations', His witnesses to the world. They will not join the OWG, that is why the AC negotiates a 7 year treaty with them. It is the holy people of Beulah [Isa 62:1-5] who shout; 'Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord', at the glorious Return of Jesus.
 
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And why would that auto-jump to 2013 when so much of it is found to be true in the coming of the Gospel? What does the NT say such passages mean? 'A light to the nations'? Acts 13.

The regathering was a bit of encouragement for the nation in the dark days of the captivity, but even then what they came back to was piddly by comparison to what had been (Hag 2). All kinds of references point to something much further, which is what they were supposed to be in Christ.

So it was in their future, but closer than 2013.

Notice how fulfilled Israel's history is on the very first page of the NT. It went from Abraham to David (climax) to the Exile (the worst) to the Messiah (a new climax for other reasons and purposes).

'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'? Where does that happen if not the little symbolic entry into Jerusalem? which was intended to say nothing politically, but everything theologically; it did not even arouse attention from the Romans. And what Jesus said there is not a prediction that the leaders of Israel would sing the song to him; he was simply saying that's the condition (or a condition) of faith in their case.
 
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You do not want to be counted among these IP [2 Peter 3:1-10]

The Lord is not finished with His work related to the stream of human presence upon the earth .... and He has not left His involvement unfinished as you seem to say

This lost world if human deprivation and sin still exists .... look around

If you arbitrarily erase what still needs to be fixed and finalized you are deceiving yourself

And in addition He has revealed the same in His Word ..... scriptural truth and in reality both together

Your explanation falls way short and you need to think about it
 
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the people in 2 Pet 3 were a 1st cent. group in Judaism who were doubting Mt 24 & //s because of 'immediately after.' since all of 24A happened, why didn't 24B (v29 being the division)? that is their cynical question. This has been noted by many background scholars and Latourrette says that the delayed end of the world was somewhat of a surprise to the apostles, but it was allowed for with the 'long time coming' parables of 24B+.

As for unfinished, I think it is pretty clear that humanity is not going to improve. The Gospel is about justification from sins, not the cessation of them, which is why people don't see what Dan 9's 7 accomplishments are about. People will get worse and yet the Gospel has made many improvements even if they are denied.

There are no 'golden age/millenial' aspects to 2 Pet 3, Rom 8, Heb 9, I Cor 15. The earth will be destroyed but there will be new. Those are passages that deal with the future in ordinary, non-symbolic, non-apocalyptic language. there is nothing Judaic to happen.
 
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