Islam:Peaceful and Tolerant?

ContraMundum

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You're joking, right?

Glenn Greenwald wrote an excellent piece for the Guardian about how the term terrorism (and its laws) basically only apply to Muslims:

For good reason, right? Who does most of the acts of political and religious terrorism in the world? Muslims.

The article in the Guardian is very editorial. It's not news- it's interpretation.
 
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ContraMundum

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You're the same person who attempts to make out Muslim lands are beacons of tolerance, so its a bit ironic to actually argue you're persecuted in the west.

Your examples may be true, but sorry, they pale in comparison to the way non-muslims are treated in Islamic lands.

If you cant even admit whats happening in the Islamic world, why do you expect people to listen to your own claims?

I doubt that person has ever been to an Islamic country for any length of time. I have. They're over-rated, but only by Muslims who have never been there.

Last month, one of the churches in my denomination baptized 12 Muslim people from Muslim countries. My friend's church baptized 6 last month and 6 the month before and 9 last year. I've met them and I've helped 4 come to faith and be discipled. These people do not think highly of the "religion of peace" and weak claims to "tolerance". All had stories of corruption and vice, even (and in Iran, largely) among the clergy.

One interesting thing they all had in common- and this is the irony here- is that they all saw those Western Muslims who were always complaining about how hard it is in the West and how good it is in Islam as fools and hypocrites.

OTOH, these people were glad to be in the West, enjoying its peace and stability and especially its tolerance.

That's enough for me to make my judgment.
 
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I understand, but Muslims do have a right to practice their religion in America.

Take a look at what the quote was that I was responding to.

Muslims do not enjoy the same rights and freedoms as everyone else in the Christian secular West even though the West claims that everyone does.

Also, Muslims will come right back at you and say that Christians have a right to practice their religion in [insert most Muslim countries' names] if that's the only qualification.

You're the same person who attempts to make out Muslim lands are beacons of tolerance, so its a bit ironic to actually argue you're persecuted in the west.

Ummmmmmm, no. I say that all Islaamic lands are the most just of all. I do not say that any exist today, unfortunately.

Your examples may be true, but sorry, they pale in comparison to the way non-muslims are treated in Islamic lands.
Not really.

And whatever you may say, this shows that despite the West's claims that they champion human rights and everyone is equal, Muslims are not considered equally. End of discussion.
 
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For good reason, right? Who does most of the acts of political and religious terrorism in the world? Muslims.

Did you even bother reading the article?

".....the term "terrorism" has no discernible meaning other than 'acts of violence committed by Arabs and/or Muslims against westerners'"

The West defines the term, unfortunately. And by doing so, they exclude themselves (i.e. non-Muslims) for the most part. They reserve that term almost exclusively for Muslims.

If others besides the West and/or non-Muslims got to chime in on what terrorism is and who should be charged with it, the terrorism sheet would be much, much longer. Heck, let's say they don't chime in. If we just applied the same term to non-Muslims who did similar crimes, the list would many times longer.


The article in the Guardian is very editorial. It's not news- it's interpretation.
Well, due to the fact that Glenn Greenwald was a civil rights lawyer and he often writes excellent articles, I'm going to go ahead and trust him more than I trust you.

But why don't you tell us which parts are incorrect if it's not news?


Why don't you show us that the facts are not that Morales was tried and convicted of terrorism and other non-terrorism charges but the Court of Appeals reversed this decision & ordered a new trial altogether instead of simply dropping the terrorism charge (even though that would've been hypocritical too) because:
"By proceeding on the terrorism theory, the People were able to introduce evidence about numerous alleged criminal acts committed by members of the SJB gang over the course of three years. Without the aura of terrorism looming over the case, the activities of defendant's associates in other contexts would have been largely, if not entirely, inadmissible.

"Based on the record, it is apparent that the volume of proof regarding unrelated assaults, murders and other offenses created a reasonable possibility that the jury's findings were prejudicially influenced. Hence, the spillover effect requires reversal and a new trial on the underlying offenses."

Say what you will, but Muslims do NOT have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else. And this was just essentially admitted by the Court of Appeals too.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?
History is forgotten when it comes to how Christians interacted with (and admired ) them as well.

There's actually an excellent book on the issue that I think you'd be blessed by entitled The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque: Christians and Muslims in the World of Islam by Sidney H. Griffith










As another noted best (for brief excerpt):
Griffith is concerned to show how the terms of discourse were basically set by the Islamic attacks on Christianity. For example, the list of topics found in popular genres of Christian apologetics in Syriac and Arabic in the early Islamic period are “distinctively Islamic” (97). Christian kalam is basically a borrowing of the “Islamic style of religious discourse in Arabic” (89)....Our author is also concerned to point out that although the characters are often fictional or symbolic in the popular apologetic genres that depicted dialogue between Christians and Muslims, these texts nevertheless shed light on real historical circumstances of open dialogue between Muslims and Christians (102-103). Griffin also shows a concern to demonstrate that Christians made use of the authority of the Qur’an to validate their Christian doctrines to the Muslims (168-70). Finally, Griffith thinks that Christianity should not discount the churches that were considered as “dissident churches” by the exclusive Roman imperial authority (129). Latin Christians in particular, Griffith thinks, have wrongly considered Christians of the Orient as heretical and schismatic.

The history between Christians and Muslims is interesting - as well as the history with the Jews in some of their responses (including branches such as the Zealots who believed in the use of violence to achieve Divine ends) - for there are more passages in the Bible endorsing the use of violence than in the Koran.

I've heard it said a lot "Unlike Judaism and Christianity, hate and intolerance toward others is integral to Islam!!!"

But saying such doesn't show such or prove anything anymore than it'd be true for one to claim that Christianity leads to Replacement THeology simply because it's "integral." ..especially when the same ones using texts from the Quran don't have hate or intolerance simply because of texts used for such by others, just as believers don't use texts on slavery (including those in the NT) or killing women/children in the OT as signs of it being acceptable simply because others did so. One has to deal with the text and history before making assertions and there's no way around that. Simple as that

Yes, many things happened in the Scriptures which others have noted to be questionable - one of them being what happened when it came to the captive Midianite virgins, as God apparently permitted the Israelites to take them as wives or servants (even though both wives and servants had particular rights under Mosaic law, including prohibitions against mistreatment..Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16, Dt 21:10-14).....and some have argued that God was right to make these allowances for Israel for a time, just as a parent is right to make certain allowances for children until it’s time for them to grow up. ....although others have also said the same thing of the Quran when it comes to seeing the timeframe of when things were written and what exactly was meant when Mohommad wrote certain things - with it being accepted/allowed for a time.

Even the issue of beating women is one that has been hotly debated. For the beating dynamic is one many Muslim men have taken out of context and been corrected on....and yet noted the parallel dynamics with what occurred with practices such as stoning for adultery or aggression of the woman toward the husband in the Bible (like with Mary being close to being killed for her adultery and the Woman at the Well in John 8) - and even dynamics with slavery:
Exodus 21:22

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.


Of course, on the Bible aspect of things, that has LONG been debated when it comes to the reality of how passages of slavery were taken out of context to allow for a host of problems (more here and here at Slavery in the Bible: Does God Approve of It? /Evidence for God from Science • View topic - Slavery in the Bible ) - and the same has been argued with the Quran. Obviously, there is violence in the Quran and that cannot be avoided - but there's a way to deal with it.


For more:







For more, one excellent book on the matter is Miniskirts, Mothers and Muslims: A Christian Woman in a Muslim Land



The author is the Western wife of an Arab from a conservative Muslim family. And IMHO, her personal experience is both profound and enlightening. Themes include: status; the place of women; the veil; stereotypes; segregation and restrictions; family life; hospitality and witness.

For some good study resources:

One thing I've often seen people do is claim that all Muslims are meant to be violent--with the narrative being that believers are not and have never been in the scriptures....and yet they forget on how the scriptures, for anyone studying them honestly, have had an EXTENSIVE history of vioolence. Elisha himself called down a curse on others for making fun of his bald head and had 2 bears kill over forty-youths ( 2 Kings 2:23-25/ 2 Kings 2 ). FOr others saying that Mohommad was vindictive and Biblical prophets were not, I think there's a big lack of honesty in seeing how others responded.....and there's a reason that others often chose to become Zealots for the Lord.

The same thing goes for Samson in Judges 14-16 when the Spirit of the Lord came upon him and he went to war with the Phillistines....with Judges 15 being interesting after seeing how he had a riddle he made solved and the Spirit of God empowered him as he took vengence upon them by killing their own people to pay the winners what was agreed on. Again, anyone studying the prophets and OT Israel in how they did things will see that it wasn't anywhere close to being a pretty narrative or something where violence wasn't at times praised/celebrated.

As it is, the example of Elisha is interesting when seeing how he responded to mocking with the Lord's approval in shutting things done.

And all in the OT who followed God were believers, just as it is with believers today....be it Moses when it came to the slaughter of the Midianites for enticing Israel into sexual immorality after Balaam taught them how to seduce them, or David in his conquest of Jerusalem/wars---or Josiah in II Chronicles 33-34 who wiped out all of the idolators in the land/put them to death...and many others. The account of Maccabees also is another to consider as well as Phineas (more shared here ).


Obviously, there's no avoiding where there is In the new book Laying Down the Sword: Why we Can’t Ignore the Bible’s Violent Verses, Philip Jenkins brilliantly compares and contrasts the Bible and the Quran in terms of sheer violence.





For other good reviews:


War and peace in Quran and Bible


Building Bridges program with WTPN - Philip Jenkins and Jerry Davis (28th
 
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ContraMundum

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Did you even bother reading the article?

".....the term "terrorism" has no discernible meaning other than 'acts of violence committed by Arabs and/or Muslims against westerners'"

That's one fallacy- muddy the term to invalidate the crime? Let's just call it homocide then. I'm happy with that.

The West defines the term, unfortunately. And by doing so, they exclude themselves (i.e. non-Muslims) for the most part. They reserve that term almost exclusively for Muslims.

Right now, the homicides are being committed by Muslims. Almost exclusively. The term fits. 40 years ago we might also be mentioning the IRA.

I honestly think you just don't like it being exposed.

Say what you will, but Muslims do NOT have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else. And this was just essentially admitted by the Court of Appeals too.

...and that is where you lose the argument. This whole article was just bias. You have your lawyers, naturally writing for the Guardian, and I have mine to cite. But I know, from past conversations, that truth is not what you're looking for.

You can always move to another country where your rights are protected. Right?
 
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steve_bakr

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True, true, true as they should be allowed to do. However, due to reason and
respect for others, and particularly our laws, practitioners of that "religion of
peace" aren't allowed to practice all of the acts of their esteemed prophet
Mohammad, i.e. murdering at will, robbing people of their property, forcing
conversions, stoning, beheading, having sex with 9 year olds, etc...

From my study of that "religion of peace", Mohammad trumps anything the
Qu'ran or any of the Holy books may say.

I think your post may be misrepresenting Islam and Mohammad.
 
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Illuminaughty

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Right now, the homicides are being committed by Muslims
And everyone else. Detroit has a fairly high murder rate and the Muslim population is rather low. A few miles away there is a city, Dearborn, with a rather high percentage of Muslims and the murder rate is much lower.
 
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Illuminaughty

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Domestic Terrorism in the US:

piechart2.jpg


FBI — Terrorism 2002/2005
 
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That's one fallacy- muddy the term to invalidate the crime? Let's just
call it homocide then. I'm happy with that.

... Right now, the homicides are being committed by Muslims. Almost
exclusively. The term fits. 40 years ago we might also be mentioning
the IRA.

... I honestly think you just don't like it being exposed.
That "religion of peace" isn't that peaceful. We're told to believe
it is. Mohammad was a very violent man.

At any rate, what the mainstream media call "fundamentalists", i.e.
hamas, al aqaeda, muslim Brotherhood, hezbollah, etal, are those
who are truly following the example of their esteemed prophet
and creator of that "religion of peace", Mohammad.
 
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ContraMundum

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And everyone else. Detroit has a fairly high murder rate and the Muslim population is rather low. A few miles away there is a city, Dearborn, with a rather high percentage of Muslims and the murder rate is much lower.

Talk about derailing! Stay on topic perhaps?
 
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That's one fallacy- muddy the term to invalidate the crime? Let's just call it homocide then. I'm happy with that.

Right now, the homicides are being committed by Muslims. Almost exclusively. The term fits. 40 years ago we might also be mentioning the IRA.

2mnhrol.jpg



In case you're not trolling:

Sanctions on Iraq in the 90's: 500,000 children under the age of 5 died due to non-Muslims. Madeleine Albright said that price (starving those children to death) was worth it (disgusting excuse for a human being).

War in Iraq starting from 2003 till now: anywhere between 100,000-700,000 dead due directly/indirectly to the Western invasion.

And this isn't getting into the severe birth defects (and miscarriages) caused by the depleted uranium that these foreign invaders used in Iraq. Or the effects of DU in adults. Or into Abu Ghraib. Or rapes.

Afghanistan: Who knows? None of the attacking nations care to keep a body count, that's how insignificant the Afghan dead are to them. But God knows and He is the Most Just.

Drone attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen: Again, who knows? But of the 3,149 reported fatalities in Pakistan, less than 2% of the casualties are high-profile targets. The rest are civilians, children, or alleged militants (though their names are never given). More info here: Out of Sight, Out of Mind: A visualization of drone strikes in Pakistan since 2004


Many other examples but I'm not getting into them right now.



...and that is where you lose the argument.
Um, ok, maybe in your imagination. But whatever helps you sleep at night.

This whole article was just bias. You have your lawyers, naturally writing for the Guardian, and I have mine to cite. But I know, from past conversations, that truth is not what you're looking for.
So, again, show us how those facts are wrong (that Morales was charged & convicted of terrorism & non-terrorism charges but then the Court of Appeals overturned that conviction and ordered a new trial altogether due to the terrorism charge allowing too much evidence into trial). Because that's what the court said. Show us how both the court & Glenn Greenwald, who exposes their decision, are wrong.

You can always move to another country where your rights are protected. Right?
Don't change the discussion. I, as an American who is supposed to be guaranteed the same rights as WASP Americans, am not limited to just two options (stay silent & don't criticize or leave). Thanks anyways.
 
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ContraMundum

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2mnhrol.jpg



In case you're not trolling:

Sanctions on Iraq in the 90's: 500,000 children under the age of 5 died due to non-Muslims. Madeleine Albright said that price (starving those children to death) was worth it (disgusting excuse for a human being).

Typical. Bodycount politics. Care to discuss how many Muslims have been killed by Muslims in the last few decades? Pile that figure high as you like if you count the military Imperialism of Islam since its founder carved a bloody path through Arabia. The sanctions figure has been debated hotly. It's mathematically improbable that half a million is accurate. I would say impossible

Here.

Don't change the discussion. I, as an American who is supposed to be guaranteed the same rights as WASP Americans, am not limited to just two options (stay silent & don't criticize or leave). Thanks anyways.

Baloney. You sound so absolutely University Student "going through my activist phase". Nice racist comment though. Noted.
 
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ContraMundum

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I was responding to the person saying that Muslims were doing all the homicides.

That was me, and you took it completely out of the context of the conversation, and furthermore- it's not what I was saying.

Get on the bus or at least read first.
 
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EnemyOfReason

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There is no Muslims country that would let Jews or Christians practice with significant peace but nor is there a Christian one.

The morals in almost all Christian countries are secular along with government. This secularization prevention Christians from fulfilling their intent to slaughter infidels.

But in Africa where de facto Christian states exist the Christians almost always burn witches and slaughter gays. Uganda and Liberia is a perfect example of this
 
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Zoness

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There is no Muslims country that would let Jews or Christians practice with significant peace but nor is there a Christian one.

The morals in almost all Christian countries are secular along with government. This secularization prevention Christians from fulfilling their intent to slaughter infidels.

But in Africa where de facto Christian states exist the Christians almost always burn witches and slaughter gays. Uganda and Liberia is a perfect example of this



Secularism is the buffer which keeps the Western world held together from religious chaos.
 
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ContraMundum

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There is no Muslims country that would let Jews or Christians practice with significant peace but nor is there a Christian one.

I live in a "Christian" country where everyone can practice their religion in peace. I can name about 20 others too.

Guess that theory of yours got shot down.

The morals in almost all Christian countries are secular along with government. This secularization prevention Christians from fulfilling their intent to slaughter infidels.

Do you know anything about Christians? Can you please produce Christian literature for the rest of us that tells us that we are to slaughter "infidels"? It's not in our Bible. It's not in any church document I know. It's not in any Church's Confession of Faith, catechism or Articles of Religion.

You're making this up.

But in Africa where de facto Christian states exist the Christians almost always burn witches and slaughter gays. Uganda and Liberia is a perfect example of this

Anyone buring witches or slaughtering gays (like they do in Muslim countries) is clearly not a Christian, but a sinner on his way to judgment.

Can we discuss religious tolerance in Muslim countries and the endless war of hatred and violence Muslims are waging against Christians in Africa and Asia. Let's start with the massacre in Kenya and go backwards, shall we? We'll be here a long time.
 
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EnemyOfReason

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I live in a "Christian" country where everyone can practice their religion in peace. I can name about 20 others too.

Guess that theory of yours got shot down.

It did not, you just spoke too soon.

Do you know anything about Christians? Can you please produce Christian literature for the rest of us that tells us that we are to slaughter "infidels"? It's not in our Bible. It's not in any church document I know. It's not in any Church's Confession of Faith, catechism or Articles of Religion.

Was raised a Christian, and I can give you the Bible.

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."

Does this sound familar?

"Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah."

Or this?

Numbers 31:17-18 - "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

The Bible condones the practice of infanticide from this.


You're making this up.

No you are.

Anyone buring witches or slaughtering gays (like they do in Muslim countries) is clearly not a Christian, but a sinner on his way to judgment.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Exodus 22: - "18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Also....

Matthew. 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."


Can we discuss religious tolerance in Muslim countries and the endless war of hatred and violence Muslims are waging against Christians in Africa and Asia. Let's start with the massacre in Kenya and go backwards, shall we? We'll be here a long time.

Took secularism to get Christians to stop, same will occur for Muslims
 
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