The Day of Destruction

keras said in post 1:

The Day when people scramble for cover; they will call out ‘The great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand? Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21

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Note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

keras said in post 1:

Joel 2:3 A devouring fire and leaping flames passes by, leaving behind a desolate wasteland, nothing survives its passing.

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Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) which won't start until sometime after the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring to only Zion, the holy mountain, and the land, can mean that it's referring to only a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am", H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", that is, distributed into ranks (Hebrew "chatsats", H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are so small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets, H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts, and other plant-destroying insects, which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the first century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

keras said in post 1:

Zephaniah prophesied: Zephaniah 1:18 The whole Land will be consumed by the fire from the Lord. He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

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Zephaniah 1:14-18 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

keras said in post 1:

Peter prophesied: 2 Peter 3:7 & 10 By God’s Word the present heavens and earth are reserved for burning, kept until the Day of judgement when the godless will be destroyed. Suddenly and unexpectedly the Lord will make the heavens disappear with a great sound and flames will envelope the earth, all in it will be brought to judgement.

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Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

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Response to the OP:

This is a good post with supporting scriptural references


"This is the judgement of all the nations, especially those who scorn and denigrate His people"


Posters on this forum need to know that the Lord intends to deal harshly with those take a standing against His ethnic people of Israel .... today, and certainly during the coming tribulation of His wrath and judgment .... this will be shown just after the days of the tribulation [Matthew 25:41-46]

There are a number of posters who believe that the Lord is finished with Israel and have been taught to take an anti-Semitic position today

A number of sects of professing Christianity hold replacement theologies which claim that their "church" has become national Israel [Revelation 2;9; 3:9]

I am not judging any on the forum, but I must let the related scriptures tell the truth with no obscurities added

Keras,
in overall OT theology, you have to make some conclusions. If Dt 32 is going to announce a destruction of Israel and that happened in 586 BC and was repeated (says the NT) in 66 AD, then it is not those peoples who are being punished at some future point when it wouldn't mean anything. It is much more likely that it has happened (that the Isaiah text has happened) after the 1st captivity. But if that captivity was supposed to happen, it is difficult to see why there would be a day of vengeance.

As for the hills being asked to fall on desparate people, have you read the NT interp of that? It is confined to Israel and is one of many of Luke's explanations of the traumas in 1st century Israel in that time of punishment.

Lk 21 does say all those things were 'the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that was written,' thus allowing us to say that there was a punishment coming on Israel then. I don't mean the crass version of 'the Jews killed Christ and were punished for it.' But rather, the Zealots and Judaizers (who did help in the defeat of Christ) refused to leave their movement and that brought tension with Rome to a head that Christians did not have, and that brought Roman legions to Judea, and that is how Israel was punished. I believe the alternative held out to Israel at this time was what the apostles wanted them to believe (besides believing on the righteousness of Christ) to save the nation.

Remember also that even the high priest thought that the execution of Christ might show enough 'control' of its population to save Israel from being 'swept' clean by Roman troops, Jn 11 and 18 refer to this.

"None of the prophesies in my OP have been fulfilled, but now with the world once again 'as in the days of Noah', the Lord will act as He did then"


None have been .... and yes He will

The world is ripe for His judgment today .... and just after He will appear visibly on the earth to those mortals who will survive His tribulation and wrath .... those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth which will be centered in Israel .... He is going to restore the kingdom to Israel and He will rule the earth form Jerusalem for 1000 years .... and then will come His eternal kingdom .... new heavens and a new earth will be restored to His original and perfect creation

Not only that but a resurrected David will be Israel's king during the millennial kingdom [Zechariah 12]

What an astounding thing !!! .... the Lord is an awesome God

.... and all of a believing remnant of Israel will enter [Romans 11:25-36]

Time Watcher said:

Response to the OP:

This is a good post with supporting scriptural references


"This is the judgement of all the nations, especially those who scorn and denigrate His people"


Posters on this forum need to know that the Lord intends to deal harshly with those take a standing against His ethnic people of Israel .... today, and certainly during the coming tribulation of His wrath and judgment .... this will be shown just after the days of the tribulation [Matthew 25:41-46]

There are a number of posters who believe that the Lord is finished with Israel and have been taught to take an anti-Semitic position today

A number of sects of professing Christianity hold replacement theologies which claim that their "church" has become national Israel [Revelation 2;9; 3:9]

I am not judging any on the forum, but I must let the related scriptures tell the truth with no obscurities added

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Well, posters on this forum have differing views, don't they? I doubt if all of them will ever have the same.

The other prophetic view says that the end-time Israel is spiritual and is the entire world and will be Judged. The one thing that is different from the natural fulfillment is that we are coming to the end of the story and it has a closure. It would seem to me that the entire world would have to be included if also the gentiles are also in the main focus of the end.

Where do the gentile nation that was given the gift of salvation fit into your statement? I'm not seeing it clearly. Are you saying that only the natural Israel is the focus of the end-time prophecy?

Thanks in advance

Time Watcher said in post 4:

A number of sects of professing Christianity hold replacement theologies which claim that their "church" has become national Israel [Revelation 2;9; 3:9]

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Revelation 2:9b and Revelation 3:9 were referring to unbelieving genetic Jews living in the literal, first century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) (what's today western Turkey). Unbelieving genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though they're physically circumcised, they're spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so they're spiritually not Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all believers, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the first century AD in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant that Jesus had made it so that congregation could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly unbelieving genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

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Time Watcher said in post 8:

He is going to restore the kingdom to Israel and He will rule the earth form Jerusalem for 1000 years ....

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Amen.

For regarding "restoring the kingdom" to Israel (Acts 1:6), that means restoring the kingdom of Israel in a physical way in which it will bear fruit (Matthew 21:43), which won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (Acts 3:20-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

keras said in post 5:

Therefore, to shift the sixth seal from chapter 6 to chapter 19 - at the Return cannot be right.

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Note that no such shift was done. For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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keras said in post 7:

So Luke 21:20-24 is fulfilled.

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The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos, G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 can refer to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos, G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

keras said in post 7:

But Luke 21:25-36 is not, very soon to be, so be alert 'for that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over'. This is NOT talking about the Return in glory - does that 'come like a trap?' V 25-26; 'People will faint with terror...as the heavens and the earth are shaken, the seas roar and surge'.... In no way does this match with the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign

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Luke 21:25-27 means that the unsaved world will become horribly worried when the post-tribulation signs accompanying the 2nd coming (in Luke 21:27) begin to happen (Matthew 24:29-30).

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keras said in post 10:

SG9, Yes there seem to be as many different ideas about how the end times pan out, as there are serious studiers of it! Why is this? Isaiah 29:9 tells us - If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded. REB version.

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Isaiah 29
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

That brings to mind the fact that Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is a book that is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

keras said in post 10:

This will fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs and at last His people will be 'a light to the nations'.

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Actually, Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus' first coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23) and his sending forth of his apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).

keras said in post 10:

It is the 'great promise' that Paul referred to in Acts 26:6-7 a wonderful time of peace and prosperity for all who love the Lord and keep His Laws.

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Note that Acts 26:6-7 refers to the hope of literal, bodily resurrection from the dead (Acts 26:8, Acts 23:6b, Acts 24:15, Romans 8:23-25).

keras said in post 10:

It is the 'great promise' that Paul referred to in Acts 26:6-7 a wonderful time of peace and prosperity for all who love the Lord and keep His Laws.

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Regarding those who "keep His Laws", do you mean those who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic laws? If so, note that on Jesus' cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he'd set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced those with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the 10 commandments), written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Keras, re 'whole world'
I don't think you realize that 'ges' often just means the land of Judea in NT Greek. That's why Mt 24A (before v29) is all about Judea, and 'ges' just means that land. Very small entities could be called nations and kingdoms (even today near me in the Pacific Northwest is an entity of 2000 people that calls itself a 'nation').

re a resurrected David
I don't think you've absorbed Acts 13's sample sermon. All such promises were refered to Christ; Isaiah is saying just that, and Paul is quoting Isaiah about that.

re the coming judgement
Yes, there is a coming day of judgement, but there are no Judaic details to it. That's why there are no Judaic details to 2 Pet 3, Heb 9, Rom 8 or I Cor 15 when they talk about the future remaining day. Acts 17's presentation is the same way. It is not wise to build doctrines off of Rev when they are not in normal-written passages to begin with.

re Rev's original meaning
the subject of the Rev's original references to the trauma's of 1st century Judea are too huge to assume it is about our future

re bit-pieces of Lk 21
I can understand switching time frames with Christ in Mt 24 & //s at v29, because of the markers 'immediately after that trouble' switching time frame and location. But not bits and pieces beyond that. The apostolic community did originally expect the end of the world right after the ordeal in Judea, except that the Father alone would set that time. We are still in holding on that. Because of this expectation, many things are written that way, from 'marana Tha' to I Th 2 about the pending judgement to Rev 1 saying everything in it would happen shortly.

Argument with a preterist is futile Keras ... no matter what you show them, these will not change course

However, the things that you post are read by others as a witness to the hope that you have in Jesus Christ and His intent to return and to go about His business of restoring the kingdom to Israel

The preterist has abandon this truth and left the Lord in the past .... essentially this teaching prohibits the Lord's future involvement in the affairs of lost humanity

Understand that many of these will confront you on Internet messages boards, even if you do not choose to engage them

The reason so many are preterists is that the RCC and related traditionalists have the largest memberships of professing Christianity

All have been taught that the Bible per say is irrelevant and that their tradition supersedes [this is called suppressionism] .... so they must find ways to discount the prophetic scriptures .... and they have, big time .... in this ambition they have created another gospel .... a "kingdom now" theology of which their "church" is ruling on the earth

They believe that there is no need for Jesus Christ to come and do this, that the devil is locked up and prohibited from interaction with humanity today, and that their religious organizations are in the driver's seat

When they hear one like you who makes effort to stick to the Bible alone for truth this is a very frightening thing for them to deal with ..... there is the thought that you might just be right

... and if true, their entire religion and body of theology comes into question for them

So expect their reactions to be aggressive against your teaching

A good example would be for you to go to the largest Catholic website on the internet and see what is going on .... post a bit of your view and very shortly you will be investigated and told not to post there .... if you continue, you will be ban with no recourse

Press on with your teaching ..... the Lord is still in the running

re the brighter sun
Actually, Keras, the sense of the paragraph is that that is good thing. It is not part of the judgement but of the help from God, as is the rain, and seed, and rich and plentiful food etc. You've totally missed the meaning. Its near a day of slaughter but it is a blessing, like binding up bruises and healing wounds.

By the way, before getting too far away in timeframe, all this material is about the sin of relying on Egypt for protection from other enemies in this late OT setting. And was to be fulfilled "in a very short time" (29:17).

and then there is the NT use of some expressions here: the encampment and siegeworks of 29:3 is used in Lk 19, and Mt 15 uses the complaint that people are near God with their mouths and lips but not their hearts. In the 1st century setting, the zealot leaders did try to get help from a couple eastern nations who themselves were interested in fracturing the 'rim' around the Mediterranean 'lake' which Rome had developed. It is as if the passage is saying to the 1st century 'don't go get help from the Idumeans against Rome the way your forefathers went to Egypt for help against Assyria.'

Interplanner said:

re the brighter sun
Actually, Keras, the sense of the paragraph is that that is good thing. It is not part of the judgement but of the help from God, as is the rain, and seed, and rich and plentiful food etc. You've totally missed the meaning. Its near a day of slaughter but it is a blessing, like binding up bruises and healing wounds.

By the way, before getting too far away in timeframe, all this material is about the sin of relying on Egypt for protection from other enemies in this late OT setting. And was to be fulfilled "in a very short time" (29:17).

and then there is the NT use of some expressions here: the encampment and siegeworks of 29:3 is used in Lk 19, and Mt 15 uses the complaint that people are near God with their mouths and lips but not their hearts. In the 1st century setting, the zealot leaders did try to get help from a couple eastern nations who themselves were interested in fracturing the 'rim' around the Mediterranean 'lake' which Rome had developed. It is as if the passage is saying to the 1st century 'don't go get help from the Idumeans against Rome the way your forefathers went to Egypt for help against Assyria.'

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Hi IP,your statement that I highlighted in red makes me think of a parallel that some believe to be that of America, where America is the spiritual Babylon or Egypt (either) and the patrons run into her arms for protection and economical support. It makes me think of when God acts like a mother hen and gathers her chicks and America is replicating this idea in order to keep control over the nation and prevent a revolt. I've been hearing a lot of news networks talking about a possible revolt, in fact some say it's inevitable and just a question of time. I'm pointing out another view that came to mind when I read your post.

Keras,
I don't think that passage is partial if he's going to bother to name the problem as being reliance on Egypt. It's about that. I do think it is partial in that the NT goes ahead and uses a line or two from that setting about the 1st century setting. So it is partial about ancient BC Israel, and completed in the 1st century.

Pardon the expression but it is almost magical to think that you can pop your head in anywhere you like in the OT and ka-jing--it's about us!

Interplanner said in post 13:

re Rev's original meaning
the subject of the Rev's original references to the trauma's of 1st century Judea are too huge to assume it is about our future

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Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are future because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

Interplanner said in post 13:

The apostolic community did originally expect the end of the world right after the ordeal in Judea, except that the Father alone would set that time.

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Regarding "the end of the world", in Matthew 24:3 the original Greek word (aion, G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26). And while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur before the tribulation, or even at the end of the tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when it would occur, just as he didn't tell them many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that he would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation, that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

Interplanner said in post 13:

The apostolic community did originally expect the end of the world right after the ordeal in Judea, except that the Father alone would set that time.

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Note that the Father had already set the time for Jesus' return, for the timing referred to in Matthew 24:29-31 wasn't what was "originally expected", but was what Jesus himself taught about when his 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church will occur in relation to the never-fulfilled tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (cf. also 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

For an example of how that tribulation has never been fulfilled, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Interplanner said in post 13:

Because of this expectation, many things are written that way, from 'marana Tha' to I Th 2 about the pending judgement to Rev 1 saying everything in it would happen shortly.

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Note that what even the writers-down of the "Jesus is coming back soon" scriptures may have mistakenly thought was meant by "soon" wasn't determinative of what those scriptures actually mean, because of 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 3:8-9.

For example, in Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).